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20 hours ago, seafuryfb said:

The difference between auto hybrids and diesel electric locomotive it the ICE actually share the drive train with the electric motor via a transmission. A diesel electric locomotive , the diesel powers the generator that put power to the traction motor.  An EMD SD40 has about 3600hp but max rpm is less than 3000rpm , the locomotive weighs in at 300000 lbs and pull much more weight. Locomotives dont have a storage battery. So a guess would be that a car the size of a Corolla would have 50hp the rpm not exceeding 3000rpm to drive just the generator and power the traction motor it would be possible to drive it half way  across the US continent on one tank of gas . The chevy Volt is the closest to this concept.

That's  exactly what I'm saying. Yes some would say its band-aid, but I see it as some electric cars could aspire to,at least range wise.

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On 3/19/2019 at 7:53 AM, SBARC said:

I think the cold weather cuts the range to half roughly.

 

It does not. Atleast not EV's with an active warming/cooling system on the battery like Tesla's have. Ie if the battery is preheated before a trip (which can be done automatically and while plugged in based on time) the loses beyond that shouldn't be more than 25% or so. And that kind of loses happen with ICE too obviously. Now, LEAF's and smaller cars that dont have any kind of active warming/cooling system at all is a different story. But trend with newer cars is to have that system, it is extremely important for battery degradation too.

 

On 3/19/2019 at 7:54 AM, SBARC said:

I was listening to the radio tonight and it seems Toyota is pushing towards the hydrogen fuel cell idea for their electric vehicles.

 

Fool cells are terrible terrible idea. They don't make any sense whatsoever. It is perplexing how Toyota continues with their push (although still in an extremely limited fashion) but i understand there are political reasons behind it. Other than that, i will just leave it at that;

 

hybrid_hydrogen_vs_electric_chart-e14616

And those numbers used on the hydrogen side are basically best case. Just the fool cell efficiency is closer to ~40% if one wants to have any sort of decent power output from them, which a car does need. The EV numbers are slightly too low, should be closer to ~92/87/92 or so, atleast with efficiency oriented EV's.

+ https://electrek.co/2017/10/26/toyota-elon-musk-fuel-cell-hydrogen/

Edited by Berkut
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H2 is terrible as an automotive fuel, whether internal combustion or fuel cell, as it has nowhere near the energy density of gasoline.  600 BTU/mol for hydrogen vs 3,000+ for gasoline.  Vehicle storage tanks are heavy to deal with pressure necessary to carry anything close to an amount of hydrogen to get a reasonable range from said tank.  Its sole benefit for fuel cell use is it generates nothing but water and excess heat as effluents.

 

These fuel cells can often use gasoline instead of hydrogen but you have the CO2 emission problem and incomplete conversion leaves carbon impurities on the cell membrane that degrades it over time.

Edited by Slartibartfast
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Packaging.  Hydrogen and oxygen were a big percentage of the the total Saturn payload.  And as I noted, all you get from a fuel cell is electricity, water and heat.  As H2 and O2 were already plentiful in the system, simplicity pointed to a fuel cell as an optimal way to provide power for the space craft.

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  1. As to the diesel electric engine combo GM has known about it since they owned EMD electric motive division why haven't they applied to autos and trucks.?
  2. Tesla during winters where I live there is definite lose of battery due to extreme cold , we get -20c or -4f but also get -30c/-22f . With all lights working, fans and heat on I have read that Tesla battery charge does not last as long. Add any wind to that equation cools almost anything quicker including ICE engines 
  3. Hydrogen: one of the most poisonous gases Amonia when burnt makes H2O and nitrogen ,but not safe in a car or trucks. Also it burns so hot stainless steel is require for exhaust and the does not last as hydrogen burns hotter than gasoline or diesel.
  4. When electric cars can drive a 12-14 he drive with only one to 2 stops and run all its systems with out extra charging and the use of our electricity systems which most a fossil fuels without too much draw of power ,then I will get on board. 
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 Yup, I suffer from all the same thought as above .   Pretty much like replacing old light bulbs with neon lights .

 

 How does all that mercury in the ecosystem make our planet a better place ?

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11 minutes ago, seafuryfb said:
  1. As to the diesel electric engine combo GM has known about it since they owned EMD electric motive division why haven't they applied to autos and trucks.?
  2. Tesla during winters where I live there is definite lose of battery due to extreme cold , we get -20c or -4f but also get -30c/-22f . With all lights working, fans and heat on I have read that Tesla battery charge does not last as long. Add any wind to that equation cools almost anything quicker including ICE engines 
  3. Hydrogen: one of the most poisonous gases Amonia when burnt makes H2O and nitrogen ,but not safe in a car or trucks. Also it burns so hot stainless steel is require for exhaust and the does not last as hydrogen burns hotter than gasoline or diesel.
  4. When electric cars can drive a 12-14 he drive with only one to 2 stops and run all its systems with out extra charging and the use of our electricity systems which most a fossil fuels without too much draw of power ,then I will get on board. 

 

 

1.  You are describing every plug-in hybrid on the market.  FYI this concept has been known and in use for over 100 years.  The first hybrid car, the Lohner-Porsche Electromobile was an electric car with a gasoline powered generator used as a range extender.  It was built between 1900 and 1906. 

 

2.  The loss is minimal, maybe around 20% at its extreme.   I have taken a Model S on several trips from Long Island to central VT, into -20c temperatures, and it was fine.  Windchill only applies to humans.  The battery (or any object) cant cool below ambient... unless it is soaking wet.  

 

4.  You're pretty close there.  With Tesla's ever growing supercharger network, the trips you describe are already possible.   You can already take a tesla on a 14 hour trip and only need to stop twice to re-charge.  The second part is highly dependent on governments.   We dont need to depend so heavily on fossil fuels... but if we didnt, lots of powerful wealthy folks would lose money, and we cant have that.  

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4 hours ago, Chris L said:

 

 Electric works great in my mind until I wonder what has to be burned to generate the electric power to recharge it ....

This is the long dead myth of "long tailpipe". If you took an average coal plant and used to charge your EV, it would still be more efficient and cleaner than the vast majority of cars. And the grid, even in US and China, is far cleaner than just pure coal plants. Otherwise;

 

1; https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/new-data-show-electric-vehicles-continue-to-get-cleaner

 

2; https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/ev-emissions-tool?_ga=2.47602990.809256624.1553200539-1853582052.1553200539

 

Now i am expecting "But the batteries man, the batteries! And lithium!" as the next myth/argument.

Edited by Berkut
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1 hour ago, Chris L said:

 Yup, I suffer from all the same thought as above .   Pretty much like replacing old light bulbs with neon lights .

 

 How does all that mercury in the ecosystem make our planet a better place ?

1; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#Mercury_content

 

2; If it bothers you that much (which i highly doubt tbh), just use LED's then.

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7 minutes ago, Chris L said:

 I do, but that does not account for all the uninformed people  that did not see that pitfall.

 

Mildly ironic statement. You are seeing "pitfalls" that don't exists (CFL vs incandescent) and long tailpipe because you are (were?) uninformed.

 

There is nothing wrong with being uninformed (i am ignorant about one million things), there is however something wrong making assumptions and statements based upon lack of knowledge however.

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I have five V8 powered cars in my garage, and three more V8 engines on stands, ready to go. 

 

I want all of you to go out and buy all the electric cars you can. More gasoline for me. 

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On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 4:14 AM, Berkut said:

 

It does not. Atleast not EV's with an active warming/cooling system on the battery like Tesla's have. Ie if the battery is preheated before a trip (which can be done automatically and while plugged in based on time) the loses beyond that shouldn't be more than 25% or so. And that kind of loses happen with ICE too obviously. Now, LEAF's and smaller cars that dont have any kind of active warming/cooling system at all is a different story. But trend with newer cars is to have that system, it is extremely important for battery degradation too.

 

 

Fool cells are terrible terrible idea. They don't make any sense whatsoever. It is perplexing how Toyota continues with their push (although still in an extremely limited fashion) but i understand there are political reasons behind it. Other than that, i will just leave it at that;

 

People with Tesla's in cold weather would beg to differ.... steep inclines also are not taken into account. Now that does mean on the way down from the mountain you have some flexibility. The other issue with winter driving is when the superchargers break and you have people filling to capacity the line to charge the vehicle is ridiculous. The continuous use of the supercharger is not recommended by Tesla as it will deteriorate the battery life quicker. So essentially if you want to venture out during the winter, proceed with caution and have a back up plan. 

 

From my understanding hydrogen cells can recharge quicker and will not deteriorate like EV cells will. 

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Hydrogen cells are not batteries... they dont recharge, they create electricity through an electrochemical reaction between hydrogen, oxygen and an oxidizer.   The process requires the vehicle to carry a load of pressurized hydrogen gas.    The logistics of creating a network of hydrogen fuel stations is far more complex than installing superchargers. 

 

... Tesla owners are not having any major issues in cold climates.  The issues they are having are being addressed, and are relatively minor. 

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17 hours ago, habu2 said:

I have five V8 powered cars in my garage, and three more V8 engines on stands, ready to go. 

 

I want all of you to go out and buy all the electric cars you can. More gasoline for me. 

 

tenor.gif?itemid=11863179

 

😛

14 hours ago, fulcrum1 said:

 

People with Tesla's in cold weather would beg to differ.... steep inclines also are not taken into account. Now that does mean on the way down from the mountain you have some flexibility. The other issue with winter driving is when the superchargers break and you have people filling to capacity the line to charge the vehicle is ridiculous. The continuous use of the supercharger is not recommended by Tesla as it will deteriorate the battery life quicker. So essentially if you want to venture out during the winter, proceed with caution and have a back up plan. 

 

From my understanding hydrogen cells can recharge quicker and will not deteriorate like EV cells will. 

 

You mean people like people that actually own and use Tesla's (including a friend of mine, and plenty of coworkers, and i live in Norway, generally speaking a cold place) and an owner that already said the loss is around 20%;

 

22 hours ago, BaconRaygun said:

2.  The loss is minimal, maybe around 20% at its extreme.   I have taken a Model S on several trips from Long Island to central VT, into -20c temperatures, and it was fine.  Windchill only applies to humans.  The battery (or any object) cant cool below ambient... unless it is soaking wet. 

 

Mine 25% was based upon data i have seen prior + some extra percentages. With some planning and preheating it should be significantly less than 20%, just like BaconRaygun has said. So indeed, they beg to differ, with you. As to "steep inclines", that is basic physics and those apply to ICE too. Unlike ICE, EV's can recoup a lot of energy on the way down too.

 

Hydrogen cells dont "recharge". The stupid part about hydrogen is that one is converting electrons into hydrogen and to be used as an energy carrier, a bad one at that. Instead of just directly using electrons, afterall they end up driving the same thing, efficient electric motor(s).

 

Battery degradation, atleast with modern cells and design (with aforementioned active heating/cooling system) is minimal. Roughly speaking as a general thumb of rule, about 0,5% per 10000 miles. And degradation is "quick" at the start, and very slow after that; https://steinbuch.wordpress.com/2015/01/24/tesla-model-s-battery-degradation-data/

 

Otherwise Model 3 battery degradation (or rather, lack of it) is probably even better.

Edited by Berkut
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22 hours ago, BaconRaygun said:

 

 

1.  You are describing every plug-in hybrid on the market.  FYI this concept has been known and in use for over 100 years.  The first hybrid car, the Lohner-Porsche Electromobile was an electric car with a gasoline powered generator used as a range extender.  It was built between 1900 and 1906. 

My understanding is that most cars labeled as hybrids actually have the ICE providing power directly to the wheels at some point.  The Chevy Volt used the ICE only as an electric generator, but it was one of the few that worked like that.

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29 minutes ago, Ken Cartwright said:

My understanding is that most cars labeled as hybrids actually have the ICE providing power directly to the wheels at some point.  The Chevy Volt used the ICE only as an electric generator, but it was one of the few that worked like that.

 

Thats why I specifically said  plug-in hybrids.  The current trend is one towards plug-in hybrids and EVs.  Every year, more and more car makers are adding them to their model lineup. 

 

Toyota, Honda, VW, GM, Nissan, BMW, Porsche, Ford, and Hyundai all produce at least one plug-in hybrid that is sold in the USA.  There are probably more, but those are the ones I know off hand. 

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7 hours ago, BaconRaygun said:

 

Thats why I specifically said  plug-in hybrids.  The current trend is one towards plug-in hybrids and EVs.  Every year, more and more car makers are adding them to their model lineup. 

 

Toyota, Honda, VW, GM, Nissan, BMW, Porsche, Ford, and Hyundai all produce at least one plug-in hybrid that is sold in the USA.  There are probably more, but those are the ones I know off hand. 

Not to be pedantic, but as far as I know, the only difference between a hybrid and a plug-in hybrid is that the plug-in version can charge the battery from some sort of outlet, so it can drive longer on battery before the engine kicks in.

 

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicles/electric-vehicles/how-do-plug-in-hybrid-electric-cars-work

 

Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles–known as PHEVs–combine a gasoline or diesel engine with an electric motor and a large rechargeable battery. Unlike conventional hybrids, PHEVS can be plugged-in and recharged from an outlet, allowing them to drive extended distances using just electricity. When the battery is emptied, the conventional engine turns on and the vehicle operates as a conventional, non-plug-in hybrid.

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9 hours ago, Ken Cartwright said:

My understanding is that most cars labeled as hybrids actually have the ICE providing power directly to the wheels at some point. 

 

The ICE in the Toyota Prius (hybrid) does not drive the wheels directly, it is a battery recharging device only. 

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Interesting replies.  I've driven the 3 and although smooth and quiet with an amazing amount of room, I found that I had to keep looking to the right to the big info screen, taking my eye off the road.  Not a huge deal, but still annoying and maybe not all that safe.  Range is still a problem with all these EV's, but that will very likely increase dramatically with time and technology.  Also, and I know this is subjective, to me the Model 3 is bug ugly and I'd never buy one.

 

For those who think that electric cars will completely eliminate hydrocarbon use for all future transportation, consider this:  Where is all the new growth in electrical generation to power these EV's coming from? 

 

1) Solar?  Not for a long time, if ever, and good luck charging a solar panel when it's 20 below and covered with snow.

2) Wind?  As above and even worse.

2) Hydro?  Maybe a bit more, but most of the obvious rivers have been dammed to death and the impact on fisheries and other wildlife is severe, so not likely.

3) Nuclear?  Good luck with that.

4) Coal?  Hell no, it's worse than oil and nuclear.

5) Natural Gas?  Hell yes.  Whether you like it or not, the future of electrical generation will come from good old hydrocarbons, albeit cleaner hydrocarbons.

 

This is all good for reducing the carbon footprint of cars and trucks, etc. and I will likely buy an EV one day, but don't think for a minute that EV's will dramatically reduce all hydrocarbon use in the near future.  Also, all the plastics and the creation of metals and batteries in these EV's come from hydrocarbons. The key to reducing our carbon footprint is reducing population growth, period, but for some reason nobody talks about that.   I'll stop there before this becomes political.

 

Chuck

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On 3/21/2019 at 12:40 PM, Chris L said:

 

 Electric works great in my mind until I wonder what has to be burned to generate the electric power to recharge it ....


 

hydroelectric-e1517835706722.jpg

 

1200px-Photovoltaik_Dachanlage_Hannover_

 

81614116-F05F-40D3-B990EF6FD0542388_sour

Edited by Tony Stark
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