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foxmulder_ms

Tesla, model 3

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I haven't made any attempt to confirm what this person says, but it all sounds pretty reasonable and well-researched to me:

 

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 Look at Chuck's post and you'll see some of the issues . Plastic is probably where the greatest part of petroleums products are used .

 Also, a lot of greases and other lubricant go into the wind turbines . ( from what I read )

 

 I have not read what problems all these new systems will cause but I feel certain they will . I don't believe that Henry ford had envisioned what is currently happening .

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On 3/21/2019 at 1:28 PM, BaconRaygun said:

 

 

1.  You are describing every plug-in hybrid on the market.  FYI this concept has been known and in use for over 100 years.  The first hybrid car, the Lohner-Porsche Electromobile was an electric car with a gasoline powered generator used as a range extender.  It was built between 1900 and 1906. 

 

2.  The loss is minimal, maybe around 20% at its extreme.   I have taken a Model S on several trips from Long Island to central VT, into -20c temperatures, and it was fine.  Windchill only applies to humans.  The battery (or any object) cant cool below ambient... unless it is soaking wet.  

 

4.  You're pretty close there.  With Tesla's ever growing supercharger network, the trips you describe are already possible.   You can already take a tesla on a 14 hour trip and only need to stop twice to re-charge.  The second part is highly dependent on governments.   We dont need to depend so heavily on fossil fuels... but if we didnt, lots of powerful wealthy folks would lose money, and we cant have that.  

Your response to 1 I was not describing all plug in hybrids, the diesel-electric generates is power with a diesel and powers the traction motors at the wheel , just like a Tesla, but the is no battery to store the electric charge to be recharged. 

Reply to 2 can your Tesla sit in -20 For a week and recharge properly? Many ICE engines don't start because of to reason poor maintainence tune ups and clean oil and batteries insuffiently maintained. On a long distance trip 20% loss of charge can be significant but reading from owners who live up here and they were have a loss of 40% as we have had 2 solid weeks of -26c. Don't confuse windchill factors for humans with cooling. My ICE with a cast iron block will take about a hour to cool to ambient temp at -20c and an half hour for and aluminum block. Add a strong wind and it cuts that time in half . There is a difference between short term exposure to cold and long term exposure, long term exposure can cause all kinds of problems which affects all aspects on automobiles including electronics. 

3 yes you are right Ev vehicle's are close but not yet  my old diesel 1978 rabbit actually out miles most cars of today,  46hp 68miles per gallon on a 9 gallon tank = 600miles or 2000 kms . Stops would be my limit,  rest time! Newer cars are heavier now because of safety equipment not or old cars , more weight more power required.  We are just staring this leap into the EV give it 20 years and more competition and the EV maybe like smart phones a better one comes out every year . 

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https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/02/cold-weather-reduces-electric-vehicle-range/

 

I am for EVs, under the right circumstances. If you live and commute in a city, then perfect, EVs are exactly the right idea: quiet, reduced pollution etc, but for those of us who DONT live in the city limits, who DO need a range of more than a few hundred miles in one sitting, who DO live where the temperature sits at -30/40°F for weeks/months at a time, an EV is nowhere near suitable. Yet. 

 

I lived in a town in Australia where the next nearest town was an 8 hour drive away. And that's not 8 hours through suburbia, that's nothing but sand and rocks for 8 hours. 

 

 

THESE, however, piques my interest ;D

 

 

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36 minutes ago, DDC said:

... who DO live where the temperature sits at -30/40°F for weeks/months at a time, an EV is nowhere near suitable. Yet.

There is also the thing about providing energy to both turn the wheels for long trips to the city and back and run an air conditioner in 37C, 100F, summers some places, such as the farmland where I live, have; and the US southwest too..

Not suitable yet, but the companies do want to sell their cars, therefore progress is inevitable.
It is merely a matter of the time it takes to get there from here.
Walmart here in our county seat farm burg has just finished installing some kind of charging stations at one edge of its parking lot. 
Four or five "gas pump" looking things with 2 cords each and a LCD screen, and, several large electrical cabinets which are now behind a sheet metal fence.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/23/2019 at 12:01 AM, chuck540z3 said:

Interesting replies.  I've driven the 3 and although smooth and quiet with an amazing amount of room, I found that I had to keep looking to the right to the big info screen, taking my eye off the road.  Not a huge deal, but still annoying and maybe not all that safe.  Range is still a problem with all these EV's, but that will very likely increase dramatically with time and technology.  Also, and I know this is subjective, to me the Model 3 is bug ugly and I'd never buy one.

 

For those who think that electric cars will completely eliminate hydrocarbon use for all future transportation, consider this:  Where is all the new growth in electrical generation to power these EV's coming from? 

 

1) Solar?  Not for a long time, if ever, and good luck charging a solar panel when it's 20 below and covered with snow.

2) Wind?  As above and even worse.

2) Hydro?  Maybe a bit more, but most of the obvious rivers have been dammed to death and the impact on fisheries and other wildlife is severe, so not likely.

3) Nuclear?  Good luck with that.

4) Coal?  Hell no, it's worse than oil and nuclear.

5) Natural Gas?  Hell yes.  Whether you like it or not, the future of electrical generation will come from good old hydrocarbons, albeit cleaner hydrocarbons.

 

This is all good for reducing the carbon footprint of cars and trucks, etc. and I will likely buy an EV one day, but don't think for a minute that EV's will dramatically reduce all hydrocarbon use in the near future.  Also, all the plastics and the creation of metals and batteries in these EV's come from hydrocarbons. The key to reducing our carbon footprint is reducing population growth, period, but for some reason nobody talks about that.   I'll stop there before this becomes political.

 

Chuck

 

 

If governments support any of these as much as they do support fossil interest, all of them together can easily work. No joke. Don't believe me look at at North European countries. You don't count them as "real" countries then look at China. They are doing it. Also there is something called efficiency. *Any* large scale energy plant is significantly more efficient then ICE cars. ICE cars are just moving ovens. 

 

ICE cars should be taxed. They create problems for everyone even people not using them. Now we have none ICE option. If you want to drive an ICE in cities you should pay for privilege of emitting toxins. 

Edited by Gun_Metal

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7 hours ago, Gun_Metal said:

 

 

If governments support any of these as much as they do support fossil interest, all of them together can easily work. No joke. Don't believe me look at at North European countries. You don't count them as "real" countries then look at China. They are doing it. Also there is something called efficiency. *Any* large scale energy plant is significantly more efficient then ICE cars. ICE cars are just moving ovens. 

 

ICE cars should be taxed. They create problems for everyone even people not using them. Now we have none ICE option. If you want to drive an ICE in cities you should pay for privilege of emitting toxins. 

That's not actually realistic for a variety of reasons.  The thing about Northern European countries isn't that they're not "real" countries, it's that they cover a relatively small area so range is not as important.  China is a world all its own, with different population travel trends, and a lot more government control.

 

In the US, people might make road trips with kids that cover hundreds of miles a few times a year, and there are very few EVs that would cover that range without a major recharge stop along the way.  If they had an EV, it would either require long recharge stops or the need of an additional ICE vehicle for the trips while they use the EVs for daily commutes, which not all could afford.  Of course, they could own only an EV and then pay for separate travel, but that is also very expensive.

 

How about we get rid of the tax benefits people get for buying EVs and use that money to build out a better charging infrastructure?

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22 hours ago, Gun_Metal said:

ICE cars should be taxed. They create problems for everyone even people not using them. Now we have none ICE option. If you want to drive an ICE in cities you should pay for privilege of emitting toxins. 

 

ICE vehicles are taxed - at the gas pump.  If you are driving an electric vehicle you don’t pay this tax - even when the electrical energy used by your electric car is generated by means that generate pollution.

 

If electric vehicles dominate the roads you can be sure the taxation method will be adjusted to include non-ICE powered vehicles. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2018/06/04/who-pays-for-roads-once-electric-vehicles-defunct-the-gas-tax/#538053563e0a

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10 minutes ago, habu2 said:

 

ICE vehicles are taxed - at the gas pump.  If you are driving an electric vehicle you don’t pay this tax - even when the electrical energy used by your electric car is generated by means that generate pollution.

 

If electric vehicles dominate the roads you can be sure the taxation method will be adjusted to include non-ICE powered vehicles. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2018/06/04/who-pays-for-roads-once-electric-vehicles-defunct-the-gas-tax/#538053563e0a

They'd just institute a mileage tax. They've already talked about it in Vermont since gas tax revenues are going down as efficiency goes up.

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4 hours ago, habu2 said:

 

ICE vehicles are taxed - at the gas pump.  If you are driving an electric vehicle you don’t pay this tax - even when the electrical energy used by your electric car is generated by means that generate pollution.

 

If electric vehicles dominate the roads you can be sure the taxation method will be adjusted to include non-ICE powered vehicles. 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2018/06/04/who-pays-for-roads-once-electric-vehicles-defunct-the-gas-tax/#538053563e0a

^^^This. I pay enough taxes on my ICE vehicles from the moment I buy them, to my yearly State  "inspections" (*COUGH* taxes), after every fluid change, to each visit to the pump and then some. I'm good thank you.

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17 hours ago, habu2 said:

 

ICE vehicles are taxed - at the gas pump.  If you are driving an electric vehicle you don’t pay this tax - even when the electrical energy used by your electric car is generated by means that generate pollution.

 

 

And the federal tax rate at the gas pump hasn't changed since the 1993 in the United States. I'm not talking about a percentage rate, instead a cents per gallon rate which has not been adjusted for inflation or otherwise. Almost 30 years later, we are still paying the same number of cents per gallon in tax.

 

I honestly think we should be paying more tax at the pump than we are now.

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1 hour ago, Hoops said:

 

And the federal tax rate at the gas pump hasn't changed since the 1993 in the United States. I'm not talking about a percentage rate, instead a cents per gallon rate which has not been adjusted for inflation or otherwise. Almost 30 years later, we are still paying the same number of cents per gallon in tax.

 

I honestly think we should be paying more tax at the pump than we are now.

Well, you can always move to Pennsylvania.  Their state tax on a gallon of gas is, I believe, the highest in the nation.

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1 hour ago, Joe Hegedus said:

Well, you can always move to Pennsylvania.  Their state tax on a gallon of gas is, I believe, the highest in the nation.

Yes sir!  Fortunately, I work in Maryland, and enjoy ~.20 cent per gallon break on gasoline when i fill up there.  My only (very slight) concern about the tax is that an amount of the tax is used to fund the PA State Police.  Yes, they do a wonderful job patrolling our highways here in the keystone state, but they ARE (way) more than traffic cops here.  For those that cannot afford a police department, the State Police are used providing that coverage.

 

it will be interesting to see what kind of taxing system will be put in place here in the USA for road maintenance post Internal Combustion Engine (if that day ever does come).  Perhaps a separate tax "meter" in place for those who charge their vehicles at home will be put in place, by law, in addition to taxes at public charging stations, or an additional vehicle life tax at the time of purchae put in place to "generate that revenue NOW". The decline in (fuel)tax revenues WILL be made up.   

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2 hours ago, Joe Hegedus said:

Well, you can always move to Pennsylvania.  Their state tax on a gallon of gas is, I believe, the highest in the nation.

Indeed we Pennsylvanians pay crazy taxes at the pump. No idea where we rank nationwide but my wallet and I wouldn't mind a tax break not a tax hike! Sorry, we're good here in the Keystone State as is. Anyone advocating or wishing for increased taxes at the pump should really think it through before they get their wish. They won't like it.

 

My two cents... no wait you can't have it I need to fill up my tank :woot.gif:.

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They recently added an additional 12 cents-per-gallon tax in California, and here's more info, including the breakdown of all the taxes:

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/09/04/gas-tax-what-you-actually-pay-on-each-gallon-of-gas/

 

At this point, almost 74 cents per gallon is made up of taxes of some sort.

 

I think that article also points out some of the issues with casually using taxes for funding and other things, because it becomes so convoluted that you end up not knowing how the money is being spent, nor how much you're really paying.  For example, a lot of the money for highway maintenance comes from truck and weight fees, which are charged to the trucking companies, but of course they add that to their charges to the shippers, who in turn add it to the costs of the goods being sold, so you're paying that tax, just not directly based on your use of the roads.  So you're paying that tax, plus your gas taxes, plus property taxes, plus they use general fund taxes to pay for roads, so that takes money from other things that then require more taxes to be added for those things, etc.

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There's no such thing as a Free Lunch.

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Is there anybody here that thinks that the US highway system and infrastructure is in great shape? Compared with other modern democracies?

 

That money has to come from somewhere, and the flat federal gas tax has lost 64% of it's actual purchasing power since the last adjustment.

 

Do I really want to pay more at the pump? No. Do I think that it is necessary and a logical step to improve our national highway system and infrastructure? Yes.

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Many states seem to be privatizing our highways. Witness the proliferation of toll roads in the last 10-20 years. I know that’s the case in Texas, how about your state? (a question for everyone)

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1 hour ago, habu2 said:

Many states seem to be privatizing our highways. Witness the proliferation of toll roads in the last 10-20 years. I know that’s the case in Texas, how about your state? (a question for everyone)

Again, using PA as an example, the state Turnpike Commission recently raised tolls again.  I think it was because of declining revenue and needing more $ for maintenance.  There may have been some $ siphoned off by the legislature for something else, too, but I'm not sure on that.  Anyway, I recently saw an article about this, where the gist was that since the toll rates went up again, use of the road is declining because travellers don't want to pay higher tolls.  They just take alternate routes now and avoid I-76.  

 

I kwow I don't use the Turnpike anymore.  It used to be the most convenient route to get from here in MD to where my wife and I grew up around Pittsburgh, but with it costing almost $20 to get from where we would normally pick up the Turnpike to where we'd get off to get to my MIL's house, it's worth the extra 15 minutes or so to take one of the alternates and save the toll.  That $20 is 2/3 of a tank of gas anymore, so it costs nearly as much use the toll road as to make the drive from our house to our parents.  

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1 I would have to say that governments are not going to give up revenue recieved from fossil fuel  taxes. Most carbon taxes probably do not got to any climate changing improvements like it should, not where I live anyway. 

2 we need to upgrade our electricity infrastructure to hand the increased demand on it when the population moves to EVs of all types, that may take years to complete. And you will be paying higher for electricity. One of the things if you look at how much power is produced by current power types we use, like coal plants, gas plants, hydro plants, wind power and solar. Coal fire plants seem to produce the most power, when replacing these type of plants you will need more of the other types. 

3 there will be taxes on electric vehicles once they near 50%  of the market to make up lost revenues from fuels that are taxed

4 in the of the day it is we consumers who pay increased prices for good because of taxation no matter which way you look at it. 

5 I think the next 20years we will have electric vehicles better than now with battery technology,  it is not going to happen over night.

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Well we need to find a safe supply of Dilithium crystals!

😈

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In 10 years, driving an ICE in the cities will be like smoking indoors today. People will be like "what were we thinking??!?!"

 

We are pumping toxins then breathing them like it is normal, manly or smt. Very irrational.   

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13 minutes ago, Gun_Metal said:

In 10 years, driving an ICE in the cities will be like smoking indoors today. People will be like "what were we thinking??!?!"

 

We are pumping toxins then breathing them like it is normal, manly or smt. Very irrational.   

 

That's a wonderful daydream, but doesn't work in reality. 

Does that mean cities will need to be walled off to keep ICE vehicles out? Will people living within those boundaries be forced by law to have to buy EVs? Where to start with anything that needs transportation by anything bigger than a SUV?

 

It's a lovely theory, and for sure a goal worth having, but the logistics of actually making it work arent going to happen quickly. If governments want it to happen, they need to make it worth the while of the people.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/30/2019 at 3:18 AM, Ken Cartwright said:

That's not actually realistic for a variety of reasons.  The thing about Northern European countries isn't that they're not "real" countries, it's that they cover a relatively small area so range is not as important.  China is a world all its own, with different population travel trends, and a lot more government control.

 

Today i learned i don't live in a real country. Apparently a country that is about as long as it is from San Diego to Houston is not a real country and must be fake news. And our surface area is almost as large as California, which must make California a fake state.

 

Or us Europeans traveling to European countries never ever happens either. It is almost as if we are a continent with free and open borders or something.

 

On 3/30/2019 at 3:18 AM, Ken Cartwright said:

In the US, people might make road trips with kids that cover hundreds of miles a few times a year, and there are very few EVs that would cover that range without a major recharge stop along the way.  If they had an EV, it would either require long recharge stops or the need of an additional ICE vehicle for the trips while they use the EVs for daily commutes, which not all could afford.  Of course, they could own only an EV and then pay for separate travel, but that is also very expensive.

 

Average number of cars in American family is 2. It is entirely possible for an average family to have an EV and an ICE. Besides, just like vast majority of people charge their phones as home, vast majority of EV owners charge their EV's at home. Also, the exact car of this topic, Model 3, recharges at a rate of about 180 miles/300km in 15 min at a V3 Supercharger. I am not sure what you consider to be a long recharge stop, but i don't consider taking a 15 min brake every 300 km or so exactly a massive sacrifice.

 

On 3/30/2019 at 3:18 AM, Ken Cartwright said:

How about we get rid of the tax benefits people get for buying EVs and use that money to build out a better charging infrastructure?

 

c7NJRa2.gif

 

 

Edited by Berkut

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