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1/48 - Lockheed F-104G & J Starfighter by Kinetic - F-104G & J released - RoCAF boxing in Sept 2019

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17 minutes ago, Solo said:


Of course you can, why not.

But you know, there are so many aircrafts with no good kit of them. F-104 has got one, so I do believe it could be far better to make something more interesting.

But you are manufacturer and I am a client, so our points of view and interests are quite different. 🙂

I believe that there is a definite Canadian connection to some of kinetics kits.  the F-104 is a common site in many air museums here and access to them is easy. so getting correct measurements and accurate details can be done. add to that the many ex RCAF personnel willing to help, you have a model of a Starfighter that will likely have an accurate shape and good detail.

it's too bad that Kitty Hawk butchered their Voodoo kit. I could see a kinetic kit being well researched by the same people.

hey Raymond, how about a family of CF-100 canuck kits? I know a few guys willing to do the research.

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3 hours ago, MoFo said:

Except that, given the shared ownership of Lucky Model and Kinetic... it does.  :whistle:  (j/k.  it's a fair point)

Had the gut feeling someone would just smartass their way into that one, and thought of including that disclaimer but decided against giving out the bait. 😛

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2 hours ago, Raymond Chung said:

As we stated in early of the 2019, we change the policy in product release. We only annouce it when we "almost" release it (like almost go to injection or packing). For announced item, we will still going on. But the priorities between the announced subject and undisclose subject change from time to time.

While i understand the logic and considerations of doing announcements like that please consider that no matter how good your team's research is (and any experts that are helping out on any given subject) chances are, mistakes in CAD will be spotted by eagle eyed, rivet counting, modelbuilders. So IMHO, an announcement should happen, then a grace period applied (one month or so?) where you can get feedback on possible mistakes in the CAD so that it is changed before any metal is cut. During that grace period some work like for example instruction manual and box design can continue happening so that it doesnt completely stall the project during that time.

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F-104 is a Great Choice. Lots of different boxings can be made from the same basic moulds. You will definitely get maximum return on your investment. Time to make room in the stash! 

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3 hours ago, Berkut said:

While i understand the logic and considerations of doing announcements like that please consider that no matter how good your team's research is (and any experts that are helping out on any given subject) chances are, mistakes in CAD will be spotted by eagle eyed, rivet counting, modelbuilders. So IMHO, an announcement should happen, then a grace period applied (one month or so?) where you can get feedback on possible mistakes in the CAD so that it is changed before any metal is cut. During that grace period some work like for example instruction manual and box design can continue happening so that it doesnt completely stall the project during that time.

 

I understand your point and see the benefits, but there's a caveat. Going from CAD to tool is a several months-long process. This "grace period" would become quite long and completely obliterate Raymond's policy. 

 

As for this kit: will there be non-bulged MLG doors and different wheel options (i.e. RCAF, JASDF...) as well as two nozzle options?

The 104 is the one type in my stash I have more than a couple of kits of, I think I have about 12 Hasegawa 104's of various types, plus tons of aftermarket resin and Daco parts... But one or two more can't hurt 🙂 plus, I'd like to see what the current tooling technology can achieve compared with the old Hasegawa kit.

 

J

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3 hours ago, Berkut said:

Had the gut feeling someone would just smartass their way into that one, and thought of including that disclaimer but decided against giving out the bait. 😛

 

Glad I could help.  :thumbsup:

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5 hours ago, Solo said:


Of course you can, why not.

But you know, there are so many aircrafts with no good kit of them. F-104 has got one, so I do believe it could be far better to make something more interesting.

But you are manufacturer and I am a client, so our points of view and interests are quite different. 🙂

Yes 

 

In the past 10 years we have made a lot of unique aircraft that no other maker did before like E2 S2 M346.... and also try to make a balance between price quality and subject. 

 

But after when we upgrade our tooling quality, our choice of subjects would become narrowed. As we need more qty sold to offset the cost for higher quality tooling. For example, when everyone is excited with our Su33 release and look down on the F-18 release. The F-18 selling result is way better than the Su33. And we have the figures forecast the F-18 is 8 times more than Su33 in 5 years time selling period.

 

So in order to offer some niche item  we need to do some mainstream subject to keep our book balance. 

 

Thr bottom line is we are running a business and we need profit to drive the operation. We do not want to be a modeller crazy brand but we never able to keep afloat or deliver the product. 

 

Raymond

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Berkut said:

While i understand the logic and considerations of doing announcements like that please consider that no matter how good your team's research is (and any experts that are helping out on any given subject) chances are, mistakes in CAD will be spotted by eagle eyed, rivet counting, modelbuilders. So IMHO, an announcement should happen, then a grace period applied (one month or so?) where you can get feedback on possible mistakes in the CAD so that it is changed before any metal is cut. During that grace period some work like for example instruction manual and box design can continue happening so that it doesnt completely stall the project during that time.

Dear Berkut

 

Thanks for your advise. In fact we have started the way of research as you mention. The only difference is that we have asked to form a reviewer group before we start any project. Within the research period, the shape detail are review over 6-9 months before we start the detail design. But we do it in a very low profile way, we do not put it public. During the development process, all kinds of dispute, comments are made. What features to add or remove, how detail it is.... and I am the last person to press the Go button. Of course I always be the bad guy in the team where we reject the request to add in some features. 

 

Of of course we are human we made mistake or omit something, our guideline on review is those mistake cannot be fatal (like shape error) where consumer cannot modify by themselves. For small lump and pump, we try our best but sometimes shoot happens.

 

like our f-18 we made small mistakes in missing one anntenas part during mold layout and we overlook the vertical tail higher edge width (the height is correct but the edge of upper edge is 1.2mm longer). So we retool the vertical tail in the next production batch. 

 

After the initial F-16 project, we learn a lot from our mistake. So we understand how to keep operation afloat and we need to know how we need to upgrade our product quality from design tooling and product delivery. 

 

The last Kinetic Gold will be the result of such effort. But also we have some old tooled item need to be rerun, so we make a Gold label to let customer know what they are expecting. 

 

In terms research, we have hit the wall on F-16, Mirage 2000. But do you notice that since the F-5A/B series, we have not made major shape error mistakes since then? This is the result of our research workflow as well as the contribution from our contributor (our nake  name call GIB). 

Edited by Raymond Chung

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2 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

 

I understand your point and see the benefits, but there's a caveat. Going from CAD to tool is a several months-long process. This "grace period" would become quite long and completely obliterate Raymond's policy. 

 

As for this kit: will there be non-bulged MLG doors and different wheel options (i.e. RCAF, JASDF...) as well as two nozzle options?

The 104 is the one type in my stash I have more than a couple of kits of, I think I have about 12 Hasegawa 104's of various types, plus tons of aftermarket resin and Daco parts... But one or two more can't hurt 🙂 plus, I'd like to see what the current tooling technology can achieve compared with the old Hasegawa kit.

 

J

The kit come with both wheel and door as the F-104J need it (for japan market) but we do not offer both nozzle as the mold space not enough and we believe aftermarket supply will offer it if enough consumer demand it. 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Raymond Chung said:

The kit come with both wheel and door as the F-104J need it (for japan market) but we do not offer both nozzle as the mold space not enough and we believe aftermarket supply will offer it if enough consumer demand it. 

 

 

Raymond,  is A-4 Skyhawk still coming?

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1 hour ago, Raymond Chung said:

The kit come with both wheel and door as the F-104J need it (for japan market) but we do not offer both nozzle as the mold space not enough and we believe aftermarket supply will offer it if enough consumer demand it. 

 

 

 

Thank you for the info! Looking forward to seeing the kit.

 

J

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@ Raymond Chung:

 

Is a F-104S planned for a later release as well, which was operated by the Italian und Turkish AF?

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1 hour ago, falcon91352 said:

@ Raymond Chung:

 

Is a F-104S planned for a later release as well, which was operated by the Italian und Turkish AF?

As usual style Kinetic will only release the variant in a certain fix period to avoid competition within our product range. 

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9 hours ago, Berkut said:

. . . announcement should happen, then a grace period applied (one month or so?) where you can get feedback on possible mistakes in the CAD so that it is changed before any metal is cut.  . . .

 

The time gap between CAD and final plastic product is in most cases close to a year or more. If the CAD’s are released and shown early (when there is still a chance to do corrections) it is sad that it has the chance of producing forums with unending and in most cases completely pointless bickering of blind, intentionally bias people, with minimal really useful comment.

 

This is bad (very bad) both for general reputation (seriousness) of a given forum and of course for the given kit company.  

 

I am not surprised that Kinetic is avoiding this with their policy of announcement!

 

I say good luck with the Starfighter project to Kinetic as I sit back in one of my C-2 ejection seats (with Luftwaffe 104G history)! :coolio:  :rolleyes:  

 

Best regards

Gabor

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Posted (edited)

And also a Japanese boxing - ref. K48080 - Lockheed F-104J Starfighter JASDF

Source: https://www.facebook.com/kineticmodeljp/photos/a.274869386045469/1020695338129533

Box art

 

62052417.jpg

 

104J.jpg

 

Source: https://beavercorp.jp/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/キネティック-新商品案内148-F-104J-航空自衛隊-2019.05.31.pdf

 

V.P.

Edited by HomeBe

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17 hours ago, Raymond Chung said:

Well, if you view from subject/maker matrix, you will see the data like this:

 

F-14 / endless supplier

F-4 / - ditto -

Mirage 2000 / Italeri, Heller and Kinetic

Mirage IIIE / - ditto -

F-16 / endless supplier

F-18 / MONOGRAM, Hasegawa, HobbyBoss, Kinetic

 

So, why the market cannot support another offer on F-104 where we only have 2 suppliers since 1972 till now ? 

 

Three suppliers actually: 

 

F-104C/G / Monogram, ESCI, Hasegawa

 

I have built all three.  I would rate Hasegawa as superior, ESCI as inferior, and Monogram as best value.  All three build into nice reasonably accurate kits with some effort.  Admittedly, less effort for the Hasegawa kit.  But, as my 5 year old grand nephew is fond of saying, "The more, the merrier!" 

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While we all have our wish list of models we would love to see, model kit production is a business and needs to sell kits to remain not only in business but viable.   Look at the apparent direction that Revell is going with the rumor of not producing any new kits, and you can see that the market is changing and also a very difficult market to remain in.  I think that the F-104 series is a good one for Raymond.  The Hasegawa kit while a very good kit, is difficult to find and can be quite expensive.  I don't know what Hasegawa's thinking is about the market and its kits, but they seem to be living on limited releases and price increases.   If the surface detail on the F-104 is like that of their F-18 and M346 kits it will be very nice.  I like the detail shown in the cockpit renderings as well as the inclusion of the under wing fuel tanks so often seen on F-104's.  Hopefully Kinetic's F-104's will include ECM gear found on many F-104's (Canadian and Danish) and will also offer some of the recon pods carried over the years.   I will be buying several of these kits as well as the forth coming Harrier Mk 1(AV-8A) kits.  

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1 hour ago, Dutch said:

Three suppliers actually: 

 

F-104C/G / Monogram, ESCI, Hasegawa

 

I have built all three.  I would rate Hasegawa as superior, ESCI as inferior, and Monogram as best value.  All three build into nice reasonably accurate kits with some effort.  Admittedly, less effort for the Hasegawa kit.  But, as my 5 year old grand nephew is fond of saying, "The more, the merrier!" 

 

Technically, at least three more 1/48 F-104 makers.  Old Revell (before they merged with Monogram), Hawk (which was reboxed by Testors), and Lindberg (less said, the better)

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16 minutes ago, Dave Williams said:

 

Technically, at least three more 1/48 F-104 makers.  Old Revell (before they merged with Monogram), Hawk (which was reboxed by Testors), and Lindberg (less said, the better)

Touche!  I forgot about those.  I even built a couple of the Revell offerings before Monogram released their kit.  I also have a Marusan 1/50 F-104J, but purposely left that one out as not even close.  So yes, it's about time for a new F-104 in 1/48 scale.  If Kinetic builds a better mouse trap, then the world will beat a path to their door!

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Posted (edited)

Interesting, but I already got the Eduard rebox of H. F-104G and some Eduard Kormoran missiles.

 

Seems like those are not included in the Kinetic release? Kind of a missed chance then. 

Edited by ijozic

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12 hours ago, Raymond Chung said:

The kit come with both wheel and door as the F-104J need it (for japan market) but we do not offer both nozzle as the mold space not enough and we believe aftermarket supply will offer it if enough consumer demand it. 

 

 

 Please confirm that Mirage F1 is still coming....

 

Thx

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Posted (edited)
On 5/30/2019 at 8:56 PM, Dave Williams said:

 

What’s “Fantasy island” about the 1/32 Italeri cockpit?  Yes, there isn’t any sidewall detail, and they molded a solid floor underneath the seat, but both of those things are the same on almost every other F-104 kit released to date.

 

Dave, the point is, while this is an excellent kit, it is slightly disappointing that the cockpit area of all areas was not given more attention. The cockpit IS Fantasy Island. Check this out to kick some realistic shape into it: http://www.aeroscale.co.uk/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=262925&page=1 

 

Of course one can buy AM but that again adds to cost. Tamiya provides decent cockpits and so does Hasegawa. It is nice we have them, but they could have been great with some more attention, especially with all the available Zippers around (Italy has more than one to visit I believe...). Be that as it may, I will enjoy building mine including one of the upcoming Kinetic kits in 48 scale. Well done Raymond (also love the S-2A)

Edited by Timvkampen

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4 hours ago, Raymond Chung said:

Sure

 

Hi Raymond,

 

Please confirm the 1/32 Snowbird Tutor is still in the making.

 

Or I’d even settle for it in 1/48.

 

Thanks🙂

 

 

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On 5/30/2019 at 7:13 AM, 11bee said:

Doesn’t the Hase kit have horrible “divot” surface details?    Aside from that, it’s a pretty solid kit but it’s still probably 20 years old.  I’d say there is much room for improvement, just not sure Kinetic is the outfit to do this. 

 

Those divots are a visual representation of something that is there. I saw Starfighter’s on a daily basis at one time.

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