Jump to content
ARC Discussion Forums

Sign in to follow this  
Jim Barr

Marineflieger Tornado marking question.

Recommended Posts

I am ready to start applying the decals on a 1/72 Marineflieger Tornado #43+85 that carries an experimental camo scheme and is depicted on the box art for the Italeri kit #171.

 

My question is in regards to the German crosses on the wings. I have 3 model kit instructions and the older ModelDecal #87 instructions that show the crosses on the left and right wings, both top and bottom, however all the pictures I can find show the cross only on the top of the left wing and bottom of the right wing. I really like the looks of the four cross version but want to be accurate; can any one confirm if they ever carried the four cross on the 3/4 color schemes (not the two color dark gray over white) and when they changed over to the one cross per wing system.

 

Also I know the Luftwaffe was trying out different schemes on their F-4Fs in the early 1980's,  does any one have a time frame on when the Marineflieger was experimenting with the different schemes for the Tornado?

 

Thanks for any help.

Jim Barr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the pics of early (two color camo) Marineflieger Tornados that have, the ones where I can see the top of the right wing or bottom of the left wing, it has a cross there. None of the Luftwaffe ones do nor do later Marineflieger aircraft. It is surprising how difficult it is to find photos showing the top surface of German Tornados.

 

P.S. did some searching, here links to some photos of the early Marineflieger Tornados that have crosses on both wings (or at least the right upper or left lower)...

https://www.airfighters.com/photo/66226/M/Germany-Navy/Panavia-Tornado-IDS/43-86/

https://www.airfighters.com/photo/32821/M/Germany-Navy/Panavia-Tornado-IDS/43-56/

https://www.airfighters.com/photo/32852/M/Germany-Navy/Panavia-Tornado-IDS/43-56/

 

 

Edited by Mstor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the photos, yes I have found one or two photos of the cross on the right top wing of the early two tone aircraft, still looking for some on ANY 3/4 color camo aircraft.

 

Regards

Jim Barr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Jim Barr said:

Thanks for the photos, yes I have found one or two photos of the cross on the right top wing of the early two tone aircraft, still looking for some on ANY 3/4 color camo aircraft.

 

Regards

Jim Barr

Good luck on that. I couldn't find any.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've done some diggin' on flugzeugforum.de. Apparently, pics of 43+85 are as rare as hen's teeth. User 'viking' has one picture of the left side. He was asked not to distribute it. He stated, however, that the markings and stencils were similar to other Norm 83A and 83B Marineflieger Tornados. That would indicate only one cross per wing.

 

Strangely enough, THIS BOXING of Revell's 1/32 Torndao has a pic of the right side of 43+85 on the box. A low quality pic was posted on flugzeugforum.de. Send me your email address via PM and I'll forward it to you. It really isn't much, though. Maybe it would make more sense to ask if someone on ARC has that boxing and could take a better pic of the picture on the side. Even though it's pretty small, it appears there's no cross on the upper right wing.

 

An article in either the 03/1986 or 06/1986 issue of the German modelling magazine "ModellFan" has a plan of the scheme. Don't know whether or not there are additional pics, though.

 

Regarding the timeframe. The Revell kit is from 1985. Scalemates states "July 1982" with regards to the scheme in the Italeri kit (LINK!). 'viking' on flugzeugforum.de states it was tested before MFG 2 transitioned to Tornados, which was in mid-1986.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's 43+85 all right, but not the 43+85 Jim's looking for. ;-)

It's at a different time, in a different squadron, a different paint scheme, a different branch of the German military even. 

 

I'm not versed enough in the Luftwaffe or Marineflieger aircraft numbering business to know whether a certain combination of numbers was attached to an airframe for its entire life or whether they could change over time.

 

EDIT: The number before the cross refers to the type, with Tornados having been assigned 43 to 46. The number after the cross refers to a specific airframe.

Edited by ChernayaAkula

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

I'm not versed enough in the Luftwaffe or Marineflieger aircraft numbering business to know whether a certain combination of numbers was attached to an airframe for its entire life or whether they could change over time.

 

Hi,

 

That kind of  combination (43+85) stays with the aircraft its entire life, even if it moves from the Marine to Luftwaffe. It's like a serial, not a code.

The only exception is when an aircraft carries a test registration (98+xx). If after the tests the aircraft returns to regular service, the aircraft will regain the same registration it had before.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the heads-up.

Looks like you posted while I edited my reply. :thumbsup:

Edited by ChernayaAkula

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, ChernayaAkula said:

That's 43+85 all right, but not the 43+85 Jim's looking for. ;-)

It's at a different time, in a different squadron, a different paint scheme, a different branch of the German military even.

 

Oops. You are correct sir! :doh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Norm 76" Marine & Luftwaffe (the first old camouflage schemes): 4 crosses on wings. All crosses 500mm size.

"Norm 83" Luftwaffe & Marine (wraparound camouflage schemes): 2 crosses. Left wing on top, right wing on bottom side. All crosses 400mm size.

Stencils are the same new "Norm 83" low-viz types for both schemes. Only a few of the early Norm 83 Luftwaffe Tornados had the old bright "Norm 76" stencils (exept the "Rescue" and the "Ejection Seat" stencils, they are always applied in low-viz type)

 

Norm 83 Luftwaffe Tornados carried three different camouflage patterns, called Norm 83A, 83B and 83C. Norm 83C was cancelled 1994. Colors are FS 34079, RAL 6003 and RAL 7021.

The Marineflieger experimental scheme of 43+85 is the same pattern as Luftwaffe "Norm 83B", but different colors: FS 34079 is RAL 7023, RAL 6003 is RAL 7030 and RAL 7021 is  7012. The scheme was tested around the mid 80´s at MFG 1.

The MFG1 badge applied on the tail of 43+85 was reduced in size. The style of the "4385" digits on the front fuselage is the old type, the same type used on the old German schemes of F-104, Fiat G 91 and F-4, not the common DIN 1451 type you can find on the Tornado around that timeframe.

 

Final colors of the Marineflieger Tornado wraparound scheme was RAL 7012, RAL 7009 and RAL 5008.

 

There was one experimental scheme of the Luftwaffe in the early 80´s and two of the Marineflieger in mid 80´s. Both flew at MFG 1. The first Tornados (45+12 and 45+13) of MFG 2 arrived at September 1986, carried the new Marineflieger wraparound scheme.

 

Kind regards,

Jürgen (Viking at Flugzeugforum Germany)

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jurgen, thanks so much for the great information on 43+85 and that helps wraps up some lose ends as far as marking go. Too bad there not any good photos available on the www.

 

Best Regards

Jim Barr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You´re welcome Jim.

Attached is a drawing of the 43+85

 

 

 

tornado-experimental-6wjt0.png

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That experimental camo on 43+85 really does look nice. I can see why you'd want to do it. Very nice of JayBee to provide the artwork.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jurgen, really appreciate the profile with the stenciling, that is a big help.

 

I do have one question that maybe you can answer; I have the Don Color four view camo drawing for 43+85 and he shows that the inboard pylons and drop tanks on both side were painted in RAL 7030 and the picture of the right side that ChernayaAkula sent me confirms this for that side. Do you happen to know if that was true for the left side and also for the outboard pylons?

 

Thanks for all your help

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, JayBee said:

Luftwaffe 43+19

 

 

 

tornado-experimental-pnj76.png

 

One of the absolute bada** camo schemes ever to adorn Tornados.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Jim Barr said:

Jurgen, really appreciate the profile with the stenciling, that is a big help.

 

I do have one question that maybe you can answer; I have the Don Color four view camo drawing for 43+85 and he shows that the inboard pylons and drop tanks on both side were painted in RAL 7030 and the picture of the right side that ChernayaAkula sent me confirms this for that side. Do you happen to know if that was true for the left side and also for the outboard pylons?

 

Thanks for all your help

Jim

 

Hi Jim,

I would say RAL 7030 is the right color for the pylons ans droptanks. 

If I remember correctly Don Colors drawing of the left frontfuselage is in the wrong color. It should be RAL 7023 not RAL 7012.

 

Kind regards,

Jürgen 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jim,

 

I’ve found a picture of 4385 in this experimental scheme in Chuck Stewart’s Superbase 4 title on Decimomannu, with the caption saying that the photo was taken in September 1985. Unfortunately there’s only one picture, but it does show the left side of the jet. It’s very hard to tell, but to me, both pylons are painted in the ‘middle’ grey of RAL7023; the lighter grey seems a bit too light. In this photograph, the fuel tank on the left hand side is in the original colours of dark grey and white.

 

Juergen, your profiles are very impressive and your information on the scheme is greatly appreciated. Thanks very much!

 

cheers,

 

Andrew.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks everyone for the information, it has been very useful.

 

Jurgen, on the Don Color drawing both the left and right front fuselage is a combination of RAL 7023 and RAL 7030 as per your profile of 43+85; but for some reason RAL 7023 is shown as darker on the left forward fuselage than it is depicted on the left vertical stabilizer but not as dark as RAL 7012. That threw me off also when I was first studying the drawings but after comparing the left side with his other three views it is clear that it should be RAL 7023. Glad to have some verification that I reached the right conclusion.

 

Andrew, thanks for the info on the pylons, I had that book years ago but have  since sold it.

 

Best Regards

Jim Barr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Jim,

thx for the info about the Don Color drawings of 43+85 and good to know it is not a real issue.

 

Andrew, thx for the kind words and the info on the pylons.

I checked the foto in the book you mentioned and you are right, it looks like RAL 7023. I also have the (not the best) picture of the old 1/32 Revell Tornado boxing, showing the right side of 43+85. The back of the droptank in the sunlight looks like RAL 7030, the front, lying in the shade, looks like RAL 7023. 🙂

 

But, I also have the original T.O. of Norm 83 Luftwaffe schemes. It says all pylons and tanks have to be painted in FS 34079. And,FS 34079 is RAL 7023 on the 43+85. So I think Andy is right and it is RAL 7023.

 

Kind regards,

Jürgen

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the additional information on the tanks and pylons, it will not be all that much trouble to go back and paint them RAL 7023.

 

A couple of more color questions; what would be the correct color the BOZ 107 and Cerberus-3 for this time period and also the AS.34 Kormoran 1, would they be white or Olive Drab?

 

Best Regards

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BOZ: Upper side 7012, Bottom RAL 7035. The end of BOZ is painted completly in RAL 7012, because you can turn the end 180 degrees for left or right wing attachment.

The Cerberus use the same color and pattern. But is seems the fin of the Cerberus and BOZ are painted RAL 7035 on the topside if you look at the pictures below.

 

Two pictures on Flickr: BOZ,

And Cerberus

Found a really small picture of the 43+85 loaded with BOZ, Cerberus and Kormoran during inflight refueling. If you look close you can see the bottom (and top) front of the taileron is partially painted black. The same feature can bee seen on some Norm 76 Tornados of MFG 1: KLICK

Dont know exactly why it is painted in black (maybe anti erosion paint to cover the taileron during missile shooting (hot gases).?  On later schemes it was painted in camouflage color.

Live Kormoran weapons are painted in RAL 9001, for training purpose in RAL 6014.

 

 

 

 

Edited by JayBee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well the 7012 / 7035 combination was not something I was expecting and the black edge on the horizontal stabilizer is a new twist.

 

Thank you for this great information and the time you have taken to provide it.

 

Best Regards

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...