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AV-8B Harrier Center Line Pylon and Gun Pack


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I'm trying to find out if the AV-8B carried the center line pylon when it was equipped with the GAU-12 gun pack.  Some pics on-line show vague details with both but the Monogram 1/48 kit has you glue on one or the other.  Not both.   I have a painting of a Desert Storm bird from VMA-231 that shows a Harrier dropping five Mk-82 Snakeye bombs on Republican Guard positions and it appears to have the gun pack installed.   Was this wishful thinking on the artists part or did it carry both?  I' wanting to build the plane in the painting so any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

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20 hours ago, achterkirch said:

The gun pack can be Carried at the same time as the center pylon.  As stated above you can mount an ECM pod or an AN/AAQ-28(V) LITENING pod to the pylon when the gun pack is installed. 

 

Pics here. 

https://imgur.com/a/mP9UY23

The Litening Pod was no cleared during Desert Storm, it was not cleared on centerline until around 2010.

 

The only store cleared on centerline during Desert Storm was the ALQ-164 ECM Pod.

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4 hours ago, GW8345 said:

The Litening Pod was no cleared during Desert Storm, it was not cleared on centerline until around 2010.

 

The only store cleared on centerline during Desert Storm was the ALQ-164 ECM Pod.

That’s what I get for being in a hurry and skimming the post before posting an answer. 

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I worked on Harriers in the late 80s.  At the time the authorized stores for the centerline pylon was the ECM pod (which was a mythical beast, we never saw one), or 1 x Mk.81 or Mk.82 (snakeye or slick) with gunpacks or 2 x Mk.81/Mk.82 on a TER if strakes were fitted.  But note that the only time I ever saw a Mk.81 on a Harrier was when it was built with the Monogram kit, as that seems to be what they put in the box.  With strakes the Harrier could originally carry 16 Mk.82, or 15 with gunpacks.  I have a pic somewhere at home of one flying during testing with 16 Mk.82 fitted.  In practice, we never put a snakeye on the inboard TER station of the inboard pylons as it was just too close to the fuselage, and as the outer pylons were almost always fitted for AIM-9 rails and the centerline pylon almost always left off the most I ever saw actually carried was 10 x Mk.82 or 6 x Mk.83.

 

I was told by people who were there during DS that some missions were flown with Rockeyes on the centerline, even though that weapon was not authorized by the manual.  Supposedly one would fit, even with gun packs (I don't see why it would not) and the stores controller was told it was a Mk.82 snakeye.  Problem solved.

 

Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, for the period it would be entirely possible to have gun packs with centerline pylon and a Mk.82 snakeye on that pylon. If using the Monogram kit, you should note a small raised panel molded into the left and right packs on the centerline where they join.  Cut that out to open a slot in the forward section of the crossover fairing (the sloped part forward of the flat horizontal section of the crossover, do not cut into the horizontal section).  Assemble the gun pods without gluing them to the fuselage (yet).  When put the centerline pylon in place without glue.  Slide the assembled gunpacks into place over the pylon - they will hit the aft section, that's fine, you are just aligning things at this point.  You are going to cut the aft end of the centerline pylon off and are using the gunpacks as a guide to mark where to cut.

 

When things are lined up about right, mark the pylon where it meets the aft end of the slot in the crossover fairing.  Take the gunpacks and pylon off, chop off the aft end of the pylon and then glue everything together.  Add 1 Mk.82 of your choice and boom, Robert is your close relative.

 

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Thanks for the info Lance and the pointers on how to make mods to the crossover so the center line will fit.  Looks like I'm back to hanging 5 snakes. 

I had thought of hanging Mk 20's on this but then it wouldn't be the bird in the painting.    I found the below site while trying to find pics of actual Harriers during DS.

https://www.dstorm.eu/pages/en/usa/av-8b.html

Edited by Drifterdon
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If you're building the Hasegawa AV-8 in 1/48, the gondola between the gun pods has a marking on the inside that shows where to cut if fitting the CL pylon together with the gun packs. (if that made any sense 🤔 😂)

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2 hours ago, Niels said:

If you're building the Hasegawa AV-8 in 1/48, the gondola between the gun pods has a marking on the inside that shows where to cut if fitting the CL pylon together with the gun packs. (if that made any sense 🤔 😂)

It does make sense Niels.   I'm building the Monogram kit right now but I do have the Hasegawa as well so I'll check that kit.   Didn't even think to look and see what Hasegawa did.

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On 9/19/2019 at 7:43 AM, LanceB said:

I worked on Harriers in the late 80s.  At the time the authorized stores for the centerline pylon was the ECM pod (which was a mythical beast, we never saw one), or 1 x Mk.81 or Mk.82 (snakeye or slick) with gunpacks or 2 x Mk.81/Mk.82 on a TER if strakes were fitted.  But note that the only time I ever saw a Mk.81 on a Harrier was when it was built with the Monogram kit, as that seems to be what they put in the box.  With strakes the Harrier could originally carry 16 Mk.82, or 15 with gunpacks.  I have a pic somewhere at home of one flying during testing with 16 Mk.82 fitted.  In practice, we never put a snakeye on the inboard TER station of the inboard pylons as it was just too close to the fuselage, and as the outer pylons were almost always fitted for AIM-9 rails and the centerline pylon almost always left off the most I ever saw actually carried was 10 x Mk.82 or 6 x Mk.83.

 

I was told by people who were there during DS that some missions were flown with Rockeyes on the centerline, even though that weapon was not authorized by the manual.  Supposedly one would fit, even with gun packs (I don't see why it would not) and the stores controller was told it was a Mk.82 snakeye.  Problem solved.

 

Anyway, the answer to your question is yes, for the period it would be entirely possible to have gun packs with centerline pylon and a Mk.82 snakeye on that pylon. If using the Monogram kit, you should note a small raised panel molded into the left and right packs on the centerline where they join.  Cut that out to open a slot in the forward section of the crossover fairing (the sloped part forward of the flat horizontal section of the crossover, do not cut into the horizontal section).  Assemble the gun pods without gluing them to the fuselage (yet).  When put the centerline pylon in place without glue.  Slide the assembled gunpacks into place over the pylon - they will hit the aft section, that's fine, you are just aligning things at this point.  You are going to cut the aft end of the centerline pylon off and are using the gunpacks as a guide to mark where to cut.

 

When things are lined up about right, mark the pylon where it meets the aft end of the slot in the crossover fairing.  Take the gunpacks and pylon off, chop off the aft end of the pylon and then glue everything together.  Add 1 Mk.82 of your choice and boom, Robert is your close relative.

 

This is what I was able to compile many moons ago regarding Gulf war Harriers and weapon loads - https://dstorm.eu/pages/loadout/av-8b.html

And yes, there is info about "lying" to computer about Mk.82 vs Mk.20. No idea why it was not officially supported ?

 

Btw, how can you tell to computer what is stored on which pylon ? Some kind of computer "app" where you select what is where and "upload" it to the weapon computer ? Just curious how is it done from IT view 🙂

 

Jakub

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5 hours ago, JakubJakepilot said:

This is what I was able to compile many moons ago regarding Gulf war Harriers and weapon loads - https://dstorm.eu/pages/loadout/av-8b.html

And yes, there is info about "lying" to computer about Mk.82 vs Mk.20. No idea why it was not officially supported ?

 

Btw, how can you tell to computer what is stored on which pylon ? Some kind of computer "app" where you select what is where and "upload" it to the weapon computer ? Just curious how is it done from IT view 🙂

 

Jakub

On the Store/Warfare Management Computer there is a place to enter "store codes" and fuzing codes, the codes tell what kind of weapon/store is loaded on the station and what type of fuzing it has.

 

Example, for a Mk 82 with BSU-86 Pilot Option fin, the code would be 13. The bomb is fuzed with a FMU-139C/B and Mk 122 Mod 0 so the fuze code 03.

 

The computer software has a data base of what codes go to what weapon/store/fuze so it will know what is loaded and provide release data/perimeters for the weapon/store loaded in. It will also prevent illegal loads/release if you load something illegally or try to release something that is illegal and code it to what you actually have. What they did was code the Mk 20 as a Mk 82 since loading a Mk 20 on centerline was illegal and the computer did not have any info for having a Mk 20 on that station. Since it was an "illegal" load, the computer would not allow the weapon to be released if it was coded as a Mk 20 so they basically fooled the computer into thinking it was a Mk 82 (an authorized weapon) when they really had a Mk 20 (an unathorized weapon) loaded. Was doing this legal, no, but when you have to get the job done you refer to the first rule of Naval Aviation - it's always better to beg for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission.

 

Note: for those in the know, no I did not use the real codes, the above is just an example so don't ping me on having the "wrong" codes.

 

hth

Edited by GW8345
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Hi, thanks, thats what I thought, to use some shortcuts like codes. Is it much complicated when using not single bomb on pylon, but TER/MER ? Or you just put code for MER and then 6 x code for Mk.82 and 6 x for fuse ?

Thanks !

(could be more simple now with "point and click" phones/tablets/uploads 🙂

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18 hours ago, JakubJakepilot said:

Hi, thanks, thats what I thought, to use some shortcuts like codes. Is it much complicated when using not single bomb on pylon, but TER/MER ? Or you just put code for MER and then 6 x code for Mk.82 and 6 x for fuse ?

Thanks !

(could be more simple now with "point and click" phones/tablets/uploads 🙂

For multi-place racks/missile launchers, the rack/launcher "ID's" itself and how many weapon/stores it has loaded on it.

 

For example, an IMER will basically tell the aircraft's weapons computer it is an IMER and how many weapons are loaded on it (there's a sensor in the aft hook mechanism so when the aft hook on the sub-station is closed, it signals that there is something loaded on that sub-station).

 

The codes are strictly for the weapon/store type and the type of fuzing that weapon has, number of weapon/stores is covered by the suspension equipment (IMER/ITER/CVER/etc).

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13 hours ago, JakubJakepilot said:

Fantastic info, thats what I thought 🙂 Big thanks for the explanation, it all makes sense. I used your text on my DS site for explanation how to "lie" to computer, hope it is OK. It is interestning info and it should be there 😉

No problem.

 

BTW, the E-2/KA-6 accident on the Saratoga occurred in late January 1991, I can't remember the exact date, it's all a blur now. I was on deck when it happened.

 

Also, the Saratoga had to off load a S-3 from VS-30 when they off loaded the E-2/KA-6, the S-3 had it's landing gear fold up while sitting on deck and heavily damaged it's underside. We pulled into Jeddah, Saudi Arabia for about 12 hours in early Feb 1991 to off load those aircraft, then it was back to the line and the war.

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20 hours ago, JakubJakepilot said:

AHA, interestning info. I have a picture of S-3 on probably USS Yellowstone on the way back home, could it be this one ? The A-6E was 151572.

S-3

Yep, that's her. She folded up her gear while sitting on the fan tail one day waiting to be launched, screwed up the recovery big time. We had to get Tilly out to pick her up and drop her gear.

 

When she folded up her gear the gear pins had been pulled but there are interlocks that are supposed to prevent the gear from being raised while she sitting on deck, guess they didn't work.

 

I wasn't on deck when it happened but heard about it from those who were there. Some of the antenna's on the belly were driven up through her bottom and the gear doors were destroyed (notice the nose gear doors are missing).

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