Jump to content
ARC Discussion Forums

Sign in to follow this  
Vince Maddux

A different Question About Panel Lines

Recommended Posts

Anyone know a good dimension for a panel line in 48th scale ? How deep and wide should I go in the 3d drawings I'm working on?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's going to be a very hard question to answer. "Panel lines", where 2 normal panels meet up, on most anything at 1/48 scale if done to scale would be pretty much impossible to see. Even if a real panel was exaggerated to 1/4" inch wide in real live, which I can't imagine anything that wide, at scale that opening would be .005" wide.  I would suggest doing a test part with various panel line depths and thicknesses to see what "looks right" to you and then work from there. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with above. In reality, many panel lines are almost impossible to see on real aircraft unless you are right beside it, and what you see from a distance tend to be the shadow produced from the difference in height of the two panels(WWII cowling panels actually have some pretty large gaps and mis-alignments), or the shadow caused by the rivet heads, or even the dirt that gets trapped causing a drip line(what you see on most modern aircraft). What we have on models today are there so that after a post wash, there is an artistic impression of what we expect to see. 

 

its a double edged sword, if you add panel lines, they will be massively over scale and not "accurate". if you don't add them , the model will look toylike when completed and not look "accurate"

 

 as Niart mentioned, do some tests, and go with what you gut tells you looks best for the outcome you are planning on. For a main stream example. go with the size that tamiya uses. they are about perfect for what we, as scale modelers, are looking for. 

 

 Sean

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In general, I would agree.  Keep in mind that we do not build replicas, we build representations that look like replicas.  Consider that if we built aircraft with an accurate skin thickness, the replica skin would be less than .002" or .003" thick...and that's in 48th scale.  72nd scale?  Skin thickness would be so thin that it would be almost transparent and also impossible to handle, never mind cement parts together. 

 

Remember, modelbuilding at its root is...and will always be...an art form.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What I have found is that while I post shade panel lines to emphasize their presence, I have started to make small scratches and wear marks on the edges of some of the panel lines, as they would be for real after those panels would have been removed and re-installed numerous times, and the paint wears away.  That being the case makes the edges of the panels even more 'present', but also represented by a more realistic (to me, anyway) demarcation between the panels.  It's a thought, anyway, and you could do similar on drawings, I should think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we are being true to scale then you simply would not be able to see 48th scale panel lines.
Its a bit of a joke with the rivet counters, they crave accuracy with panel lines and yet those lines are themselves inaccurate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, it really is hard to say. In true scale they’d likely be incredibly fine, much finer than any 1/48 kit on the market today. As a point of reference, study up-close photos like this one and imagine how narrow and shallow they’d be in scale.

 

LINK

 

Steven Brown
Scale Model Soup

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've often thought about trying to take something like a 1/48 scale Monogram jet model, maybe an F-4 for instance and sand the entire thing devoid of panel lines. And then see how successful it could be to simply draw the panel lines with a fine lead mechanical pencil and use nothing but those fine lines and panel painting techniques to get a pretty realistic appearance. I may have to try that one day. I'm sure it's been done before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/27/2019 at 7:54 PM, Vince Maddux said:

Anyone know a good dimension for a panel line in 48th scale ? How deep and wide should I go in the 3d drawings I'm working on?

 

You could take some 0.1, 0.2 and 0.3 mm steel wires, or stretched sprues of various diameters, and fit them in the panel lines of various kits with engraved panel lines. That should give you an idea of what to use for your 3D model.

 

Another method, quite a bit more laborious, is to make cross sections cuts of various kit parts, scan them at maybe 1200 dpi, and study the width and depth of the panel lines.

 

Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/27/2019 at 11:54 AM, Vince Maddux said:

Anyone know a good dimension for a panel line in 48th scale ? How deep and wide should I go in the 3d drawings I'm working on?

 

Depends how you're printing them.  FDM will need to be bigger than SLS, which should be bigger than MJM or mSLA, which will probably be bigger than a high-end SLA.  Part orientation can have an impact, too - horizontal lines on an FDM print can be a lot thinner than vertical ones, due to the way the plastic is extruded.

 

What is it that you're modelling, and how will you be printing it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, niart17 said:

I've often thought about trying to take something like a 1/48 scale Monogram jet model, maybe an F-4 for instance and sand the entire thing devoid of panel lines. And then see how successful it could be to simply draw the panel lines with a fine lead mechanical pencil and use nothing but those fine lines and panel painting techniques to get a pretty realistic appearance. I may have to try that one day. I'm sure it's been done before.

 

It actually works quite well. You should try it. The only problem is the tediousness and time consumption of the whole process.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is Paul Budzik who, when scratch building kits, uses a fine needle to carefully scratch the panel lines into the top layers of paint only. His panel lines are extremely fine, barely visible. Much closer to the real thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2019 at 1:10 PM, MoFo said:

 

Depends how you're printing them.  FDM will need to be bigger than SLS, which should be bigger than MJM or mSLA, which will probably be bigger than a high-end SLA.  Part orientation can have an impact, too - horizontal lines on an FDM print can be a lot thinner than vertical ones, due to the way the plastic is extruded.

 

What is it that you're modelling, and how will you be printing it?

MoFo,

 

I have a Creaality ALS printer and a Anycudic  resin printer. I'm going to print the main parts  (fuselage , Wings.etc) in SLA and do detail parts with the resin printer. I know I'm going to have to do some work on the SLA parts to get a smooth finish,but so be it.

Right now I,m  drawing a P-8A Poseidon  in 48th scale and I have plans for many other planes like a C-23 Sherpa, T-1 Jayhawk, T-37, TT-1 and a few more. 2020 is going to be a busy year of drawing for me

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/30/2019 at 3:58 PM, Darren Roberts said:

 

It actually works quite well. You should try it. The only problem is the tediousness and time consumption of the whole process.

 

Darren, I just read your F-14 article where you drew on the panel lines, that is a pretty impressive result (it also is inspiring me to finish a Monogram F-14).  It is an interesting conundrum.  Building an F-16 aggressor this summer, I stared at the real thing to gauge the ratio of color scheme to lines, and while I could see the panel lines they never really broke through the color scheme either. I suppose one possibility to be the most accurate is to draw them on, and spray really thin color coat over them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/31/2019 at 5:03 PM, Vince Maddux said:

MoFo,

 

I have a Creaality ALS printer and a Anycudic  resin printer. I'm going to print the main parts  (fuselage , Wings.etc) in SLA and do detail parts with the resin printer.

 

Do you mean FDM (spools of plastic filament)?  SLA is a resin process (the photon is a form of SLA printer), so I'm a little confused.

 

Anyway, for the Photon, I'd suggest running a test print with .2mm wide/deep panel lines as a starting point (just make a quick, vaguely wing-shaped piece and deboss some random panel-line shapes on it).  That should give you some nice, very sharp panel lines about the thickness of a sheet of paper, once you factor in the slight overcure you tend to get with the Photon.  If you think they're too fine, you can jump up to .3mm and try that.  Since panel lines are kind of a personal preference though, you'll need to dial it in to your own personal tastes.

 

For the Creality printer, assuming it's an FDM (CR-10 or Ender family), my first suggestion would be to NOT add panel lines. The relatively thick nozzle diameters and layer heights mean they don't really turn out well in the first place, and the surface filling and sanding required mean they're easy to obliterate anyway, so I'd save the time in CAD and just scribe them once you've printed the parts.  (also, pro-tip: save yourself a ton of time by switching to a .8mm or 1mm nozzle and printing in vase mode rather than standard multi-perimiter + infill.  You can print regular bulkheads to add strength - it's what I did for my 1/144 Hindenburg and it saved literally weeks of print time).

 

If you *really* need to do panel lines on your FDM print, it will depend on your print settings.  You'll need them to be at least a little thicker than your layer height in the Z-axis, and wider than your nozzle diameter in X/Y.  I'd run a test print with .25mm along the X/Y axis (parallel to the bed) and .45mm Z (perpendicular to the bed) dimensions, and tweak settings from there.  You'll also need to turn your print speeds way down to minimize ringing from the 'vertical' lines, since they'll be sharp movements for the print head - if you're printing ~80mm/s+ you'll probably lose the panel line detail in the ringing/ghosting; 30 - 40mm/s gives you a better shot at having usable lines.

 

And a last pro-tip: use your Photon resin to fill/sand the FDM prints.  It self-levels nicely, sands really easily (especially if you're printing in PLA), and is much, much easier to work with than putty or spray primers.  The only real downside is that you're liable to fill in any panel lines you've printed, so again, it's probably faster and easier to just scribe them in to the smoothed print rather than waste time in CAD.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Panel line widths varies from A/C to A/C and from S/N to S/N. I worked A-10's and some time the gap between panels was 1/8th of a inch, some time they were over a 1/4 wide.Heck on some we had to trim some panel material to get them to fit. 

Also we were supposed to fill the void with a sealant to prevent water intrusion, and then paint the sealant the camo color. Well some times the sealant didn't get applied and there was a very visible gap between panels and some time the sealant got applied but no paint so you would see a exaggerated panel out line as that sealant was pretty dark grey almost black.

HTH  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, MoFo said:

 

Do you mean FDM (spools of plastic filament)?  SLA is a resin process (the photon is a form of SLA printer), so I'm a little confused.

 

Anyway, for the Photon, I'd suggest running a test print with .2mm wide/deep panel lines as a starting point (just make a quick, vaguely wing-shaped piece and deboss some random panel-line shapes on it).  That should give you some nice, very sharp panel lines about the thickness of a sheet of paper, once you factor in the slight overcure you tend to get with the Photon.  If you think they're too fine, you can jump up to .3mm and try that.  Since panel lines are kind of a personal preference though, you'll need to dial it in to your own personal tastes.

 

For the Creality printer, assuming it's an FDM (CR-10 or Ender family), my first suggestion would be to NOT add panel lines. The relatively thick nozzle diameters and layer heights mean they don't really turn out well in the first place, and the surface filling and sanding required mean they're easy to obliterate anyway, so I'd save the time in CAD and just scribe them once you've printed the parts.  (also, pro-tip: save yourself a ton of time by switching to a .8mm or 1mm nozzle and printing in vase mode rather than standard multi-perimiter + infill.  You can print regular bulkheads to add strength - it's what I did for my 1/144 Hindenburg and it saved literally weeks of print time).

 

If you *really* need to do panel lines on your FDM print, it will depend on your print settings.  You'll need them to be at least a little thicker than your layer height in the Z-axis, and wider than your nozzle diameter in X/Y.  I'd run a test print with .25mm along the X/Y axis (parallel to the bed) and .45mm Z (perpendicular to the bed) dimensions, and tweak settings from there.  You'll also need to turn your print speeds way down to minimize ringing from the 'vertical' lines, since they'll be sharp movements for the print head - if you're printing ~80mm/s+ you'll probably lose the panel line detail in the ringing/ghosting; 30 - 40mm/s gives you a better shot at having usable lines.

 

And a last pro-tip: use your Photon resin to fill/sand the FDM prints.  It self-levels nicely, sands really easily (especially if you're printing in PLA), and is much, much easier to work with than putty or spray primers.  The only real downside is that you're liable to fill in any panel lines you've printed, so again, it's probably faster and easier to just scribe them in to the smoothed print rather than waste time in CAD.

Thanks for the advice and correcting my terminology. my FDM printer is a CR-10.The more I read, the more I think that drawing or scribbling the panel lines will be the best way to go.  On another project I'm working on I found that printing the fuselage in "ring" sections seems to work best as appose to printing them in traditional left and right halves.

 

7 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Is home 3D printing really at a level where you can print a quarter scale model without a lot of finishing work?

Yes and no, weather its printed FDM or with Resin there will still be a post print process that will need to be done to make a perfectly smooth part. But I'm not expecting to print Tamiya quality kits

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some real aircraft that I have been close to. See the panel lines?

 

36378398155_07f7ca33ff_o.jpg

 

35515486533_5b7d292b9c_o.jpg

 

36836116290_321b10e81b_b.jpg

 

39740264000_f29815685a_b.jpg

 

40731940221_412d6f340d_b.jpg

 

42262054372_684ab0eebd_b.jpg

 

44918017225_b4056c0dc6_b.jpg

 

40287170073_f45ff292fa_b.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, dogsbody said:

Some real aircraft that I have been close to. See the panel lines?

 

36378398155_07f7ca33ff_o.jpg

 

35515486533_5b7d292b9c_o.jpg

 

36836116290_321b10e81b_b.jpg

 

39740264000_f29815685a_b.jpg

 

40731940221_412d6f340d_b.jpg

 

42262054372_684ab0eebd_b.jpg

 

44918017225_b4056c0dc6_b.jpg

 

40287170073_f45ff292fa_b.jpg

 

 

 

Chris

Yes actually if you mean a noticeable line where panels meet by either a row of rivets or a noticeable weathered demarcation. Granted they aren't recessed trenches, but they are noticeable lines. If you do a model without ANY representation of a panel seam then it really takes on the look of a toy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

True enough, but pre and post shading to enhance the panel lines of a kit can be overdone in a heartbeat.  For the most part...and there are obviously exceptions...I wouldn't do anything to enhance the panel lines.  Simply do a quality paint/finish job and let the natural lighting take care of the lines.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...