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Great Wall Hobby G.W.H L4827 1/48 Su-27UB “Flanker C” Heavy Fighter


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On 8/12/2020 at 1:19 AM, Inquisitor said:

Dude, where did I mention I'm stressed or if I'd buy or not the kit? Or did I ever say angrily foaming at my mouth "IT'S UNBUILDABLE!!!!!"?

I'm merely helping pointing out that error. It's up to each individual's judgement what they take from that information.

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Edited by Nino_Belov
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5 hours ago, Inquisitor said:

Dude, where did I mention I'm stressed or if I'd buy or not the kit? Or did I ever say angrily foaming at my mouth "IT'S UNBUILDABLE!!!!!"?

I'm merely helping pointing out that error. It's up to each individual's judgement what they take from that information.

You're absolutely correct. Pointing out an error cannot be considered a mortal sin, is it?

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I'm not trying to start an argument  here or anything, just want to state my personal opinion. 

When something is there that shouldn't be there in the first place, it is called an error or mistake.

When something is hidden or cannot be seen after the assembly but the error/mistake was there, the "error/mistake" is still there , it was not removed, it's just not seen. Not seen or hidden is completely different from no error/mistake.

 

Edited by flybywire
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On 8/12/2020 at 7:18 AM, flybywire said:

I'm not trying to start an argument  here or anything, just want to state my personal opinion. 

When something is there that shouldn't be there in the first place, it is called an error or mistake.

When something is hidden or cannot be seen after the assembly but the error/mistake was there, the "error/mistake" is still there , it was not removed, it's just not seen. Not seen or hidden is completely different from no error/mistake.

 

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Edited by Nino_Belov
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Come on guys, judging from GWH's released development information, they are taking the tiniest details very seriously too! And from what I see people just love that, so if Nino or other people points out some tiniest detail mistake that he sees, why should we make fun of him??? I think no one read GWH's development infos, thinking GWH should save the troubles too?

 

Personally, the problem with the kink doesn't bother me at all, it wouldn't bother me if the kit wasn't as detailed as it's showed here either, but of course I love the details. Seeing some of their research, I thought their approach is like: you may not see all the details, but you can be sure that it's there and correct. It does surprise me a bit that on this occasion it rather turned into: it can hardly be seen, so it's not there/does not matter. Anyway, it doesn't matter to me indeed, just a bit surprising.  

 

Edit: to be more precise, the wrong kink is well covered/can not be seen, but from what I understand there should be a kink there on the underside of the wing, not just on the flap only.

Edited by delide
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35 minutes ago, delide said:

Come on guys, judging from GWH's released development information, they are taking the tiniest details very seriously too! And from what I see people just love that, so if Nino or other people points out some tiniest detail mistake that he sees, why should we make fun of him??? I think no one read GWH's development infos, thinking GWH should save the troubles too?

 

Personally, the problem with the kink doesn't bother me at all, it wouldn't bother me if the kit wasn't as detailed as it's showed here either, but of course I love the details. Seeing some of their research, I thought their approach is like: you may not see all the details, but you can be sure that it's there and correct. It does surprise me a bit that on this occasion it rather turned into: it can hardly be seen, so it's not there/does not matter. Anyway, it doesn't matter to me indeed, just a bit surprising.  

 

Edit: to be more precise, the wrong kink is well covered/can not be seen, but from what I understand there should be a kink there on the underside of the wing, not just on the flap only.

Model kit design is the process of compromise.

"Find and correct mistakes" could last forever meanwhile as a commercial product, it has to strictly follow the schedule.

For invisible details or so called "mistakes", they will be omitted by priority.

 

 

I measured by a ruler that the angled surface IS there on the "correct" position, but you can barely find it. Why?

1. The angled between 2 surfaces is very small, maybe only 178 or 179 degrees.

2. There is one raised panel on that "kink" which leads to your visual illusion.

 

And according to my experience after finishing so many models, you will only laugh at yourself concerning such minor issue once you finish the work.

It is just too minor to affect the overall look of the work, and that's the difference between a model work and a bunch of plastic.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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43 minutes ago, haneto said:

 

Model kit design is the process of compromise.

"Find and correct mistakes" could last forever meanwhile as a commercial product, it has to strictly follow the schedule.

For invisible details or so called "mistakes", they will be omitted by priority.

 

 

I measured by a ruler that the angled surface IS there on the "correct" position, but you can barely find it. Why?

1. The angled between 2 surfaces is very small, maybe only 178 or 179 degrees.

2. There is one raised panel on that "kink" which leads to your visual illusion.

 

And according to my experience after finishing so many models, you will only laugh at yourself concerning such minor issue once you finish the work.

It is just too minor to affect the overall look of the work, and that's the difference between a model work and a bunch of plastic.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

Yes, I understand. And the issue is just too minor for me, I sure agree that it doesn't affect the overall look one bit. I just got the impression that no detail seems to be too minor for GWH, but yes, there are probably many small details that need to be compromised during the design, which I do not know about.

 

Only one thing I'd disagree is that, 1 degree difference may be tiny, but on a straight-line/straight surface it's certainly noticeable, or 1 degree difference in wing dihedral angle is noticeable too. At least to me because I made the mistake on one kit, anyway, it only takes 90 of them to hit a wall X-P

 

In the end I do not laugh at the tiny details on a finished kit, so I do not look away at tiny mistakes either, but I'm not stressed by it as one may image. If it's my own mistake or easily correctable, then if I was to build the same kit again, I know what I shall try to improve, that's all. 
 

Edited by delide
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Well, since they were changing the model they could've fixed that thing, that's sure. To say it won't be visible when gear doors are open is not a valid argument for me, as many people will make it in-flight too (like myself). On the other hand, Nino, do you expect them to retool the fuselage mold now? It is so insignificant in the eyes of non soviet/russian aricraft weapons systems engineer that if not you then maybe nobody else would notice it. 

Now we know however and would be nice if it can still be fixed for future releases.

Edited by Tapchan
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On 8/12/2020 at 1:39 PM, Tapchan said:

Well, since they were changing the model they could've fixed that thing, that's sure. To say it won't be visible when gear doors are open is not a valid argument for me, as many people will make it in-flight too (like myself). On the other hand, Nino, do you expect them to retool the fuselage mold now? It is so insignificant in the eyes of non soviet/russian aricraft weapons systems engineer that if not you then maybe nobody else would notice it. 

Now we know however and would be nice if it can still be fixed for future releases.

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Edited by Nino_Belov
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I don't think it's a mistake to bring it up, while I do chose to ignore it, l'm glad to know a bit more about the real thing. I do wonder why the tiny kink, my amateur guess would be for a thicker wing root and therefore more rigid joint??

 

Can't wait for the single seat version, I'm allergic to the UB, even GHW is not able to cure me, the single seater is what it is all about for me, to be honest I'm ignoring the UB altogether.
 

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3 hours ago, Tapchan said:

Well, since they were changing the model they could've fixed that thing, that's sure. To say it won't be visible when gear doors are open is not a valid argument for me, as many people will make it in-flight too (like myself). On the other hand, Nino, do you expect them to retool the fuselage mold now? It is so insignificant in the eyes of non soviet/russian aricraft weapons systems engineer that if not you then maybe nobody else would notice it. 

Now we know however and would be nice if it can still be fixed for future releases.

 

I misunderstood haneto earlier, the correct kink on the underside of the wing should be there/covered by the raised panel as he mentioned, but the additional kink... if you build it gear up, then unfortunately the additional kink is more noticeable indeed. And the other thing is that the additional kink in that area must also leads to a slightly misshapen gear bay door. In fact the misshapen gear bay door has been already pointed out by someone on baidu, someone from KH it would seem. I agree that it deserve a closer look, if there will be any chance.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Nino_Belov said:

...But what the hack...I just have master engineer degree in aircraft weapons systems...what do I know,apparently nothing enough in vectoring systems on angles betwean joint of two flat surfaces,and my model kits came to me with some green lines,and I see some strange drawings all the time,with some ...i dont know the right word,but lets say the engineers use those,you know those stupid drawings with deferent lines and some diagrams,boring stuff.

 

This is why you find yourself in so many arguments on this forum. I'll allow that it could be a language issue, and that you do not express yourself the way you intend.

 

Regardless, no one cares what education you have, what you do or did in real life, or whatever else you feel justifies your opinions. Lots of us have degrees, some of us work in aviation, some of the members have hands-on experience with these aircraft, and we all live our lives. If you want to be picky about mistakes, you are free. If you want to ask and point out flaws, that's ok too. Many other people feel that a perfect scale model is impossible, and choose to overlook certain flaws. That does not make them any less of modelers or people than you. Talking about your background in this way is obnoxious and it sounds condescending. If someone disagrees with you, you do not have to take it personally and list all your credentials. All that does it make you look petty and unprofessional. It distracts from the conversation at hand, and makes things much less pleasant around here.

Edited by Specter1075
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17 hours ago, Specter1075 said:

 

This is why you find yourself in so many arguments on this forum. I'll allow that it could be a language issue, and that you do not express yourself the way you intend.

 

Regardless, no one cares what education you have, what you do or did in real life, or whatever else you feel justifies your opinions. Lots of us have degrees, some of us work in aviation, some of the members have hands-on experience with these aircraft, and we all live our lives. If you want to be picky about mistakes, you are free. If you want to ask and point out flaws, that's ok too. Many other people feel that a perfect scale model is impossible, and choose to overlook certain flaws. That does not make them any less of modelers or people than you. Talking about your background in this way is obnoxious and it sounds condescending. If someone disagrees with you, you do not have to take it personally and list all your credentials. All that does it make you look petty and unprofessional. It distracts from the conversation at hand, and makes things much less pleasant around here.

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Edited by Nino_Belov
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3 minutes ago, Nino_Belov said:

 

I do not think you are an idiot. You have a good eye for detail, and you have a lot of good information to give to us. You should stay on this forum and be a welcome member. Just remember that we are all different people with different opinions. Even if someone disagrees with you, no one is attacking you personally. We should all be comrades here.

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6 hours ago, Nino_Belov said:

Ok, I have make myself an idiot because I wanted to help.Since here is all professional,me as an idiot have nothing more to add.Thank you sir.

 

See, that just it. Every time someone tries to bring up your behavior or something you said, you decide that the suicide route is the only way out. Shoot yourself, sound all hurt, and say you're going to leave. This is childish behavior.

Again, there is nothing wrong with pointing out perceived errors or inaccuracies in a model, just don't expect everyone to react the same towards them as you do. To many, this is a minor problem and can be overlooked. You've made your point. If anyone wants to pursue this further with you I am sure they will contact you. Perhaps even get the fix from you. But as far as I'm concerned, this horse is dead. Let it go, move on and stop acting like a hurt child.

This is what we call tough love. Sometimes someone just has to tell someone the facts to their face. So don't get the wrong idea. I like you. You are making important contributions to the forum. Just chill down on the emotion OK?

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11 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

See, that just it. Every time someone tries to bring up your behavior or something you said, you decide that the suicide route is the only way out. Shoot yourself, sound all hurt, and say you're going to leave. This is childish behavior.

Again, there is nothing wrong with pointing out perceived errors or inaccuracies in a model, just don't expect everyone to react the same towards them as you do. To many, this is a minor problem and can be overlooked. You've made your point. If anyone wants to pursue this further with you I am sure they will contact you. Perhaps even get the fix from you. But as far as I'm concerned, this horse is dead. Let it go, move on and stop acting like a hurt child.

This is what we call tough love. Sometimes someone just has to tell someone the facts to their face. So don't get the wrong idea. I like you. You are making important contributions to the forum. Just chill down on the emotion OK?

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Edited by Nino_Belov
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1 hour ago, Nino_Belov said:

You are right bro,the thing is that,I know how much work and part of them they put in this project.And I was hurt in that way,that few people,who's thoughts I respect throw my advice like a smoked cigar,and attacked me ,and everything about this project.I know how is hard to make model kit from the start,and how hard is to draw a CAD's,test fits,scale down all measurements, etc.I didn't in any moment attacked GWH,I am adored with GWH's work and their contribution to our hobby.And I tried to point people that we maybe have almost perfect model kits from them,and when one correct small error,which is corrected in just a few steps,I can say that we have best of the best...nothing else,because we deserve best,we work hard,and how so much bull... in this life we eat just to bring a food to our family's table,and when we run away in our hobby for salvation ,we deserve to have best of the best,and I just tried to lead to that part of the story.I learned so hard for my knowledge,and so many many hours of research,and when I gave it to people a tiny part of it on silver plate,they spit on it,and tried to make them look like some forum masters or I dont know,to make them and me a fools and gave another direction of this story,just to show them self as a hard talking forum drag queens..I dont know something like that,you know what I am talking.I work with some other guys one one project and there is so much work on it, and if someone point that a small correction will improve that project,even in modelers hand,I respect that,and look that as a true bond and connection betwean modeler and producer,and as one told few posts up,we are all here comrades.And what is the most important part,modeler can correct that very small error and prove his work of modeling skills,to have ...best of the best.I was just hurt that people don't understand that they also need to put at least their small part of '''sweat,blood tears and gold'' ,to all this pile already given to them,and they have a real gem on their shelfs.I hope that you guys understand me...no hard feelings.

 

My friend, I think you have set your expectations of normal people and, in particular, model companies, too high. There are no perfect models, there are no perfect people. This is reality. Its cold, dirty and not always so friendly. We strive for the best but must often settle for something somewhat short of the goal. I feel you are investing too much of your life in this one small part of it. Not to belittle its importance. Modeling is important to all of us here on ARC. But you must look at your hobby with a bit of perspective. Step back from it, as it were. Take a break, go see a movie (well, watch one on DVD or Blue-Ray in these days of Covid-19), talk to your friends, spend time with a girl (wifes count).  Take a walk in the woods (one of my favorite things to do).  Seek balance. If you invest so much in this hobby that it is your "salvation", you will only find disappointment. There is nothing in this life that can take that kind of expectation without it failing you in the end. There is no "true bond between modeler and producer" because in the end that relationship is one based on profit and the needs of the company before the modeler. Some companies come close to what you describe in their cooperation with the modeling community, but they are few and far between and such "cooperation" is often a one way street as far as the modeling contributor is concerned. Companies like GWH seek the advice of a few experts, not the community as a whole, and as Gabor and haneto can attest, they don't always take their advice.

So, take the advice of someone who has reached the end of his modeling days (if things don't improve). Find balance, variety, friendship and love. Life is too short to spend all of it hunched over a box of little plastic parts. Oh, don't give that up. No, never, but let some sunshine in.

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