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MiG-21PF and other Fishbed versions in 72nd scale from Eduard


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15 hours ago, RAGATIGER said:

H there

 

I wonder to ask which model I have to choose for an Arab specifically an Egyptian mid production MiG-21 (the PF or the PFM) and if they also used the big GSH-9 (Indian gun pod)

 

Best modelling

 

Armando  

 

Hi Laurent,

 

The question here was about    ". . . Arab specifically an Egyptian . . ."  

Yes, the Indian did have it, but did those  Arab specifically an Egyptian  versions?

 

Have to say that was never really interested in these users, so have no idea. The question is not about the GP-9 but more about the aircraft. This is why asked for, if he has a photo where it is possible to identify the details which point to the particular version.

 

Best regards

Gabor 

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Here is a bit of illustration what details the FL has in comparison to the PF and PFM. Hope this helps to understand the particulars of the MiG-21 FL.

 

o2vlWe4.jpg

 

 

Have no idea where the photo is from. Sorry to the author, could not give the copyright to this.

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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Regarding that Egyptian PF/PFM hybrid, perhaps Armando is talking about the MiG-21PFS? Tom Cooper wrote something about the Egyptian MiG-21 PFS here: LINK!

Better pic in the link....

8075b.jpg

Soure of this pic: LINK!

 

Sounds like that was another version of PF/PFM hybrid. New flaps, new parabrake location, but old cockpit and narrow fin.

 

What 's up with the natural metal canopies on otherwise camouflaged airframes? Have seen that on Egyptian Fishbeds (not just this PFS, but MF as well) and Angolan MFs. Cannibalized a natural metal example for a spare canopy or was there a different reason?

 

 

Edited by ChernayaAkula
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2 hours ago, ChernayaAkula said:

Regarding that Egyptian PF/PFM hybrid, perhaps Armando is talking about the MiG-21PFS?

 

Sounds like that was another version of PF/PFM hybrid. New flaps, new parabrake location, but old cockpit and narrow fin.

 

What 's up with the natural metal canopies on otherwise camouflaged airframes? Have seen that on Egyptian Fishbeds (not just this PFS, but MF as well) and Angolan MFs. Cannibalized a natural metal example for a spare canopy or was there a different reason?

 

If one is to build the PFS then everything is there in the PFM kit. One needs only to use the SK ejection seat and the forward opening canopy. They are included on common PF/PFM sprues H and I. So absolutely no problem there.

The S in the PFS should refer to the new flap version with the SPS system, the blown flap. That is exactly the wing you get with the PFM kit.

 

I have no idea why the Egyptians had those natural metal canopies. I would say it is certain that the fuel tank on the back of that particular aircraft was taken from a natural metal airframe. This was a common practice, we had many aicraft with "borrowed" fuel tank 7 with mismatching camo pattern or even matural metal if only that was available as a replacement.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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  • 8 months later...

So here we have a new year, 2021. This reminds me of the MiG-21’s. Here is a little period film on Your Tube from 1965 in a MiG-21 unit.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGBQz5E0WCo

 

Well, yes it is black and white and all in Russian but there are some good views of a live Fishbed squadron of those times, some nice aerial shots of 21’s flying. Have a look there are several take-off’s from grass airstrip next to the proper concrete runway. Cockpit views of PFS, PFM and even early MiG-21F-13 still with traditional ejection seat and not the standard SK seat.

 

Good reference views of aircraft standing place with some ground equipment, R-3S missile carts . . .

 

But what is more interesting is the overall clean natural metal surfaces, different shades of panels, markings, lots of stencils . . . Remember this is 1965! There is even a UTI MiG-15 and the new aircraft type of the unit, a Su-7 which incidentally has a nice Excellent marking on the nose.

 

Anyone building the Eduard 72nd scale or the 48th scale versions can get some inspirations.

 

Yes, it is a period military propaganda film, just like any other film from the same period in the West. There is a little romance, some thoughts about life, flight accidents which are part of everyday life in any squadron no matter where in the world.

Still the 15-20% of the film made in and near aircraft is worth sitting through it.

 

 

I know with mentioning this film I am going completely off topic for which in other parts of the world on local forums the ultra conservative moderators would execute me on the spot. But to know how to paint a given kit and try to replicate a given time period this is an excellent reference!

 

Best regards

Gabor

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Watched that video, howeverwhen I clicked on that link yesterday it took me to another film  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2UBDwIOOKk&t=1401s which is another Soviet era film which has a lot of MiG-21 action, it also has quite a bit of Tu-22 action. I have know idea what the film is about but there is some neat airplane stuff in there. Of course You tube suggests a bunch of russian films. Some of them look interesting and some boring. 

Hope I don't derail this topic to much!

 

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Hi Boom 175,

 

In some strange ultra-orthodox conservative parts of the world on a sinking island this kind of discussion would be considered off-topic of such magnitude that the thread would be locked and comments banned immediately.  Oh well! 

 

But fortunately we are in another more liberal part of the world. : )   : )   : )    

 

The film I recommended earlier has the real value for us modellers in that it gives an excellent reference to anyone who wants to do REAL contemporary Russian natural metal finish with excellent views of aircraft from all directions as well as ground equipment. Speaking of the latter please make a note that while Eduard provides an access ladder with 8 steps. In real life it was in most cases with just 7 steps. This was the more common and is well illustrated by the films. Also back in 1989 well before Eduard Tim Perry with PP Models made it right with 7 steps!

 

Yes, I have seen many other Soviet films recommended by google including the one you pointed too. It has some interesting scenes, like dropping a real MiG-21 from (I guess a helicopter) with considerable horizontal speed to illustrate the crash. One can see the attached lines to that Red № 28 in the crash scene. Little CGI in 1974. : )   : )  

 

Have a look at all the shades of aluminium and many have different gloss value, differentiating further!!! Gives plenty of opportunity to play around with shades!

 

As to the story of the films, they all differ but in most cases they are not the high end of literally accomplishment but they served the purpose. Speaking of the story one had the same boring romantic line, some family tails and sports scenes in films like Top Gun so there is little difference in them! The 10-20% of the films with actual aircraft and flying still make them worth watching.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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  • 4 months later...

It is sad to see in the latest issue of Eduard INFO for June in relation to the reissue of the MiG-21PF kit a mistake was added for unexplained reason.

Obviously the computer does not generate text on its own but someone at Eduard with absolutely no knowledge of this aircraft has added a sentence about cockpit colour.

 

ps84TYO.jpg

 

Just a reminder that in the original release of the kit a year ago it was correctly stated that only the Czechoslovak AF PF’s had the cockpits repainted into the green colour after overhaul. It is 100% certain that NO HUNGARIAN AF MiG-21PF EVER HAD GREEN COCKPITS! They retained the original Russian manufacturers GREY cockpit even after overhaul and to the very last flight. Even today one can look at ex-Hungarian AF PF’s both in Hungary and even in the US. They all still have the original Russian Grey cockpit!

Some Czech “expert” at Eduard decided that if the Czech aircraft had green cockpits after overhaul then it is certain that all other air forces had the same practice. This is simply rubbish, completely false information!!!

 

Here is the original instruction sheet from last year. Dont know if in the current re-issue this has been changed or not. But if yes, then ingnore the wrong instruction FOR PAINTING THE COCKPIT INTO GREEN COLOUR AS SUGGESTED ABOVE IN THE LATEST EDUARD INFO.

It was NEVER painted Green in Hungary on MiG-21PF!!!!!!!!

 

CRmQ6cE.jpg

 

First time around the instruction was perfect as it should be!

 

NgN9iom.jpg

 

 

A little thing about accuracy that INFO also shows new aftermarkets for the Bronco MiG-15 / MiG-15bis kits. Just a note here: the original MiG-15 had

*  a very different instrument panel,

different wheels

*  and a completely different ejection seat from the ones on the later MiG-15bis versions! But the Eduard Aftermarkets are exactly identical! Only the different gun pack is given, but one has to know that the gun pack were interchangable for quick turn around in case of a real war! 

 

 

The only problem here is that one questions the authenticity of other items in the Eduard INFO after seeing mistakes like this.   : (   : (   : (

 

Best regards

Gabor

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  • 2 weeks later...

It is sad that Eduard is not so cooperative in this question. I did the original research on this and it was used correctly by Eduard for the initial release of the kit. We had a lot of correspondence on different aspects of early PF versions in the kit design and making the decals.

 

It is simply unclear WHY they modified the text for the current re-release of the kit. Before I get accused of attacking Eduard on this question I have to add that before posting any info on this mistake, I did contact several people at Eduard on this. Only after several days did I post this problem both here and on Czech forums. Those contact people at Eduard who always request immediate response (when they need something) for any questions in this case did not simply bother to say anything and reply to me in the past two weeks!!! As if nothing happened.

 

I feel it is important to warn modellers who would be interested in building this Hungarian version of the mistake in the instruction sheet. It is even more important (for me) since at the bottom of the page there is my signature as the researcher / designer for this particular paint scheme. So actually my reputation is at stake here because an idiot at Eduard had his own ideas about a Hungarian aircraft about which they know absolutely nothing! 

 

 

Absolutely no problem if they have their own ideas, but then they should publish it under their own name!!! Like: "Eduard believes that the cockpit colour was so and so." 

 

 

OK, someone can say this is only a typing error in the instruction sheet, somehow accidentally generated by the computer. We if one takes a look at the Czech language version of the instruction sheet for this kit (70 143) the same completely false and rubbish information was added there also! So it was on purpose by someone!

No one is taking responsibility at Eduard at the moment. Actually in the Eduard internal computer files it is fairly simple to trace back who and when did make alterations to the print files. It would be interesting to ask this person.

 

What colour was the cockpit of Hungarian MiG-21PF’s?

It was/and still is GREY! 

But no one has to believe me, they can go out and have a look at the real aircraft. There are several examples still at large even today. What is more, there is one in a US museum although it now has Vietnamese markings on the outside, but the inside is perfectly preserved in original colours. But also in Britain there is one ex-Hungarian MiG-21PF which was donated to RIAT Benevolent Fund many years ago. There are several PF’s here in Hungary.

 

Don’t believe me, go out and check the real cockpits, I did that myself, do a meticulous research for my work. Had a look at several examples here and had a look at the US cockpit also. So . . .

 

I am sure someone in Germany can confirm or deny this but I believe the East German MiG-21PF's (Type 76) did have the original grey cockpit to the last days of service life also. The same sentence about a turquoise cockpit colour was added to the GDR version also, which did not exist in the first release of the kit.

 

 

Who cares about all of this? Well I do for one:

- The statement that the "cockpit has turquoise" color is historically completely incorrect!!!

- and also pure rubbish was written in my name by some idiot!!!

 

So yes, I do care about this!

 

 

Stay Safe!

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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1 hour ago, mario krijan said:

Gabor, probably they don't have time, or they do it in rush...do you have some cockpit pictures of HuAF PFs?

What is there to do in the rush???

The original MiG-21PF kit was released a year ago. This is only a reissue of the kit with same boxart, same decals, same plastic. It is like pressing another batch for the shops of the same product. This is not rocket science!

 

If they dont have time, why bother at all producing plastic kits or anything???

 

This is simply stupidity of thinking if for Czechoslovak MiG-21PF's the cockpit was changed to green/blue then it must have been the same for everyone else also. It is when someone has absolutely no knowledge of a subject but wants to look smart. 

 

As I have said before they can have their own ideas but then they should do it under their own name like: "Eduard believes that the cockpit colour was so and so."

 

Best regards

Gabor

Edited by ya-gabor
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1 hour ago, mario krijan said:

Gabor, probably they don't have time, or they do it in rush...do you have some cockpit pictures of HuAF PFs?

Hi Mario,

Yes, I do have few hundreds of them, but for one of the best views of a Hungarian AF MiG-21PF cockpit take a look here:

 

http://www.nmusafvirtualtour.com/cockpits/SEAW_tour/SEAW-19.html

 

There are also some hi res cockpit photos here:

 

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Upcoming/Photos/igphoto/2002317584/

 

It is in the National Museum of USAF in Dayton Ohio in the Vietnam war section with false 4128 Vietnamese aircraft number. This was once Number 408 in Hungarian AF.

here is a photo of it in its original arrival from the official site of the NM USAF in Dayton.

 

100608-F-1234B-001.JPG 

 

 

It was imported to US in not exactly legal way. Please note that the US censors tried to hide the origin of the aircraft and so the Hungarian star was painted out with grey on the fin. Yes, for a time only the fuselage was visible here and there in US. But on this photo the wings are also there and little to hide that it is Hungarian 408. 

 

Although it was not used by Red Eagles at Tonopah it was certainly tested in US in every possible way. Red Eagles did not have the PF only the early MiG-21F-13 and the Chinese copy of it. So they needed also data from the PF version too. 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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On 6/11/2021 at 2:13 PM, ya-gabor said:

What is there to do in the rush???

The original MiG-21PF kit was released a year ago. This is only a reissue of the kit with same boxart, same decals, same plastic. It is like pressing another batch for the shops of the same product. This is not rocket science!

 

If they dont have time, why bother at all producing plastic kits or anything???

 

This is simply stupidity of thinking if for Czechoslovak MiG-21PF's the cockpit was changed to green/blue then it must have been the same for everyone else also. It is when someone has absolutely no knowledge of a subject but wants to look smart. 

 

As I have said before they can have their own ideas but then they should do it under their own name like: "Eduard believes that the cockpit colour was so and so."

 

Best regards

Gabor

You're crying at the wrong grave. All your findings should have gone to Eduard. 

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5 minutes ago, sakai said:

You're crying at the wrong grave. All your findings should have gone to Eduard. 

 

 

They did receive EVERYTHING  and even more!  Please read the above. A year ago everything was published right by Eduard based on what we agreed too.

 

ONLY for this new batch of kits did they change for unexplained reason the text, crediting me with something that I have NEVER stated!

 

Best regards

Gabor

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If you feel "betrayed" then there is even more urgent reason to discuss it with THEM, have you? Do you believe that bashing them here and accusing them of stupidity is going to resolve it? And besides if you had a deal with them crying uncle here is not very professional.

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Once again please read the above story. I have written down the whole story from start to end clearly.

 

1. I have contacted Eduard about this problem well before posting anything about it on forums. None of the people contacted ever gave any response what so ever. They are more than involved with the kit project as all details originally were communicated with them in every minute detail. Intesting that back then email exchanges were 3-5 time / day both ways. 

 

2. The reason for posting anything in this forum was to warn anyone who is planning to build that particular paint scheme that the statement in it shown with red is completely wrong and only the stupidity of one particular person.

 

All this was included in the above post very clearly.

 

I am sorry if you only see the my post as an uncalled attack on a manufacturer. PLEASE READ THE POST. 

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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1 hour ago, sakai said:

 And besides if you had a deal with them crying uncle here is not very professional.

You appear the one whose posts on this matter are not "very professional".

 

I, for one, appreciate Gabor's detailed knowledge and his willingness to share it.

 

Gene K

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15 hours ago, GeneK said:

You appear the one whose posts on this matter are not "very professional".

 

I, for one, appreciate Gabor's detailed knowledge and his willingness to share it.

 

Gene K

 

+ 10.000

 

Long live Gabor !

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  • 1 month later...

Anyone waiting for other versions  of MiG-21's from Eduard brand in future here is little news on a Czech forum from yesterday (6th August 2021):

 

Question from Jiří :

 

 I want to ask how it is with the MiG-21R, bis, SMT in 1/72, if any of them will be next year, or which will be the first.

 

Answer from Mr. Sulc:

 

There will be no more MiG-21s in 1/72 next year. We are not currently working on any. Now in 1/72 we do only on the series Bf 109F, G and K, and S-199. We do not have free capacity for the next project in 1/72.

 

This means that nothing as far as MiG-21 in 2022 but a lot of 109's instead. Obvious there is no interest in MiG-21's but far more in 109's, so a normal business decision is to do 109's. This is OK and clear talking.  

If I remember right the MiG-21R was supposed to be in late 2018 or 2019. Today is August 2021. There is no point in speaking (waiting / dreaming ) about the SMT or even the MiG-21bis which both need far more new parts than the MiG-21R.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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  • ya-gabor changed the title to MiG-21PF and other Fishbed versions in 72nd scale from Eduard

So many times i kicked myself, why i dont assemble ww2 kits..... SMT and bis would be nice in 1/72....we can wait....there is sooo many Flanker kita in my stash.

Gabor because of you and your informative threads I ordered two more PFMs 😉 

Maybe PFM and MF have good sale results, so why to  bother with other versions?!

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8 hours ago, mario krijan said:

So many times i kicked myself, why i dont assemble ww2 kits..... SMT and bis would be nice in 1/72....we can wait....there is sooo many Flanker kita in my stash.

Gabor because of you and your informative threads I ordered two more PFMs 😉 

Maybe PFM and MF have good sale results, so why to  bother with other versions?!

 

Hi Mario,

 

SMT and bis would be nice in 1/72

We are the minority it looks like.   : (  : (   There are many more 109 fanatics so . . .

 

. . . Maybe PFM and MF have good sale results . . .

If there were good sales then a manufacturer would be more interested in producing other versions to make more money. Dont you think???

Actually the PF, PFM & MF's are close to the heart of Czech modellers and the Czech producer. This is as simple as this.

 

On the other hand basically they (in Czech Republic) dont know a thing about MiG-21bis or SMT which they never had and as such have almost zero interest in it. Remember 2010 when the MiG-21bis was already designed in CAD and only after Eduard was warned that there are far more differences in comparison with the MF version did a small Eduard team go to Berlin to have a look for the very first time at a real MiG-21bis. But in the end for economic reasons decided to go ahead and produce a MiG-21bis with a MiG-21MF fuselage without changes. Only few new small parts were added apart from the obvious spine fuel tank difference.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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