Andrew CJ56 Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 Dear Experts Reading the memoirs of American jet fighter pilots discussing air combat in Vietnam they often use the phrase 'unload' when dogfighting Migs'. Does anyone know what they mean? It can't mean release everything on their pylons can it? Thanks Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Underdog Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 17 minutes ago, Andrew CJ56 said: Reading the memoirs of American jet fighter pilots discussing air combat in Vietnam they often use the phrase 'unload' when dogfighting Migs'. Does anyone know what they mean? It can't mean release everything on their pylons can it? In aerial dogfighting, "unloading" means to ease back on the stick and allow the airplane to pick up speed. High-G loading bleeds off energy very quickly. A pilot must manage his energy during a fight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew CJ56 Posted March 14, 2020 Author Share Posted March 14, 2020 Ah ha, you mean reduce the G-loading on the aircraft? In this case a high G load could be in a turn. So unloading means straightening out. Great, that makes sense, thank you Underdog! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dehowie Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 To unload generally means to apply slight forward stick to reduce the amount of lift needed reducing drag. This allows the aircraft to accelerate more rapidly than in normal straight and level flight. To properly unload a zero G push occurs zeroing the requirement for lift decreasing drag significantly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted March 14, 2020 Share Posted March 14, 2020 The actual G will vary according to the aircraft, but it's generally close to zero G. The decrease in induced drag and the fact that it is generally done in a downhill direction allows the aircraft to gain/regain airspeed. That's why one of the three cardinal rules in a dogfight is "Nose position versus energy". Regards, Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FAR148 Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 16 hours ago, Murph said: three cardinal rules in a dogfight I'm curious, what are the other two? Steven Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Dog Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 never lose sight Speed is life I'd guess Quote Link to post Share on other sites
P-38 guy Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 Hit the brakes, he'll fly right by. LOL Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew CJ56 Posted March 15, 2020 Author Share Posted March 15, 2020 Thanks Guys this is all making a lot more sense now. Not being able to attend Top Gun, the ARC forum is the next best thing! Andrew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FAR148 Posted March 15, 2020 Share Posted March 15, 2020 4 hours ago, P-38 guy said: Hit the brakes, he'll fly right by Oh for sure, rule no#1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dehowie Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 Lose sight, lose the fight.. Murph nailed it..but then he should!🤪 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
metroman Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 Nose high goes high Beware the Hun in the sun The ground has a Pk of 100 ...and in a civilian airport setting with only UNICOM service: See, and Be Seen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted March 16, 2020 Share Posted March 16, 2020 On 3/15/2020 at 12:43 PM, P-38 guy said: Hit the brakes, he'll fly right by. LOL Yes, big LOL. If it were only that simple.🙀 Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Rule #1 of the dogfight club, don’t talk about the dogfight club. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
southwestforests Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 On 3/14/2020 at 4:47 PM, Andrew CJ56 said: they often use the phrase 'unload' when dogfighting Migs'. Does anyone know what they mean? Process for finding the meaning is to ask the question, where else is the phrase loading used in talking about aircraft? So ... Loading/unloading baggage/freight - probably isn't it, fighter aircraft tend not to be freighters, & although any given crew member might have some baggage, that's a topic for the psych department, fitreps, et cetera. Loading/unloading weapons - mmmm, probably not this either, loading weapons is done on the ground and unloading weapons right now isn't something desirable as you might need to retain said weapons in order to fire them at your opponent in a few moments. Wing loading - ahh, now we're getting somewhere ... Quote One of the most effective methods for improving the acceleration performance of fighters is known as "unloading." This involves pushing forward on the pitch controls to reduce load factor, lift, and induced drag.For most fighters induced drag is minimized at a zero-G condition, which may be recognized either by cockpit G-meter readings or by "seat-of-the-pants" indications such as the pilot's feet floating off the rudder pedals,loss by the pilot of any sensation of pressure against the seat, or loose articles and dirt floating around in the cockpit. This last indicator can be hazardous, resulting in jammed controls or dirt in the pilot's eyes, and should be avoided by securing loose articles and maintaining a clean cockpit. Source: page 405, Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering, by Robert L. Shaw, 1985, Naval Institute Press, Annapolis, Maryland Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 On 3/15/2020 at 12:55 PM, FAR148 said: I'm curious, what are the other two? Steven Lose sight, lose fight. Maneuver in relation to the bandit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCOUT712 Posted March 17, 2020 Share Posted March 17, 2020 Assess - predict - maneuver And the most important rule.... Look sharp on initial! Cheers Scout Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 8 hours ago, SCOUT712 said: Assess - predict - maneuver Sounds like a variant of OODA - Observe Orient Decide Act O - What am I looking at? O - What does it mean to me / my situation? D - What am I going to do about it? A - Do it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted March 18, 2020 Share Posted March 18, 2020 17 hours ago, SCOUT712 said: Look sharp on initial! Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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