Jump to content

Big Changes for the Marines


Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, Peaches_Sabrina said:

 

 

I disagree, the USMC is going back to what it was designed for.  We won't be going back into Afghanistan or any of those other Stans for a while, Iraq is for the most part over one.  China is the biggest threat the US has now.  

Are you sure we won't find ourselves somewhere else?   If so, might as well move all that pre-positioned equipment out of Norway and simply give it to the Army then. 

 

As far as the Marines going back to what they were designed for, that's not really the case.  They were designed as amphibious infantry with all necessary support built in to their MEU's (armor, arty, air, etc).   Now they are looking at scaling back on a lot of what they historically brought to the party.  I do agree that over the last couple of decades it seemed that the Marines were trying to be everything to everyone (MARSOC comes to mind as a prime example), but this new change seems to take things to the opposite end of the spectrum.  A very specialized force that was built for one particular scenario.  

Edited by 11bee
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/2/2020 at 12:36 AM, Peaches_Sabrina said:

 

I disagree, the USMC is going back to what it was designed for.

 

Oh??

 

On 4/2/2020 at 12:36 AM, Peaches_Sabrina said:

 

We won't be going back into Afghanistan or any of those other Stans for a while

 

I've heard that one before. Never gets old. That's the magic phrase before we get involved in 2 more. 

 

So close!

 

Theres already people saying the next big show is going to be central and south America. Would really hate to get smoked by some cartel guys for lack of armor. Mexican Marines got wiped out fairly recently by sicarios in fact. Luckily we would never get trapped in such a silly predicament!

 

 

The big mentality shift and the danger, is that the Marines who have always prided themselves on practically and realism are going to fall prey to the  "we buy big ticket items and sit on them for the ultra sexy mega war that could happen" while ignoring the actual real, violent, pertinent war that's actually occurring. 

 

Americas 911 force is now only going to take calls from The west Pacific. And this before we get into the fact that China doesnt need to win with the military. They own NBA we got to see that recently. They own silicon valley. We are for sale, and they have the money, and they're buying us. Why they would mess that up with military force I have no idea.  It's a battle of influence and they have more now. The NBA will gladly throw that whole freedom and democracy thing under the bus for the china market. They actually reprimanded employees siding with people protesting for liberty. Theres no amount of military force that fixes institutional rot and subversion, and that of all lessons is one we should have learned in the global war on terror. Turns out theres no amount of shooting tommy taliban that will get a farmer to trust that well bribed corrupt central government we are backing. 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/2/2020 at 6:45 AM, 11bee said:

Are you sure we won't find ourselves somewhere else?   If so, might as well move all that pre-positioned equipment out of Norway and simply give it to the Army then. 

 

As far as the Marines going back to what they were designed for, that's not really the case.  They were designed as amphibious infantry with all necessary support built in to their MEU's (armor, arty, air, etc).   Now they are looking at scaling back on a lot of what they historically brought to the party.  I do agree that over the last couple of decades it seemed that the Marines were trying to be everything to everyone (MARSOC comes to mind as a prime example), but this new change seems to take things to the opposite end of the spectrum.  A very specialized force that was built for one particular scenario.  

 

Correct 

 

And as for you saying "this comes from the Corps itself" yes and no. It comes from the commandant who was a former Pacific forces commander... so its kind of like the "why if I had my way!" List but then he got promoted to boss and now he can have his way. 

 

Theres nothing wrong with a Pacific boss looking at the biggest kid on the block and tailoring his force, but now hes got the whole world to be ready for and is still going whole hog on his old Pacific plans. I can promise you if the CMC fell off the earth tomorrow a lot of these plans would be "adjusted." To put it mildly.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 4 months later...

Buh-bye tanks...

https://www.stripes.com/news/marine-corps/a-farewell-to-armor-marine-corps-shuts-down-tank-units-hauls-away-m1a1s-1.639355

 

Hope it all works out cause within a few years, pretty much all of that hard-earned institutional knowledge will be gone.  it's gonna take them a decade to reconstitute what they are giving up.   You think they would have at least kept that reserve tank battalion, "just in case".  

Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, 11bee said:

Hope it all works out cause within a few years, pretty much all of that hard-earned institutional knowledge will be gone.  it's gonna take them a decade to reconstitute what they are giving up.   You think they would have at least kept that reserve tank battalion, "just in case".  

 

It sounds like that  hard-earned institutional knowledge will continue in the US Army, correct?

 

I assume the actual tanks are being transferred to the Army as well?

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, habu2 said:

 

It sounds like that  hard-earned institutional knowledge will continue in the US Army, correct?

 

I assume the actual tanks are being transferred to the Army as well?

By that logic, they might as well scrap their helos cause the Army has plenty, right?
 

Don’t believe the Army has any need for the discarded tanks.    They’ll go to one of the depots to sit until / if they get upgraded to current spec Army versions or sold off.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

Marines are tailoring for a fight against China.  I think the F-15EX buy is another decision made with an eye on China.

 

Small strikes against all those man-made islands could be done without tanks.  They need an updated AAV though, as anything from the sea better be coming from  "over the horizon"

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/28/2020 at 10:18 AM, 11bee said:

Anyone see the proposed changes to restructure the Marines from primarily a conventional role (basically an amphibious US Army with internal air support) to a sea / area denial force primarily aimed at the Pacific region?

 

No more tanks, most heavy artillery gone, cuts to infantry, helos and F-35's.  Big focus on long range precision missiles and anti-ship weapons.   

 

Maybe instead of Devil Dogs, we'll have to call them "Rocket Men"?

 

 https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32703/marines-to-radically-remodel-force-cutting-tanks-howitzers-in-favor-of-drones-missiles

 

 

 

 

marines have never used heavy artillery all that much. Most have that was from Army units assigned to Marine units. The loss of armor is really a surprise. The drone fad is going to bite them real hard as it's not even slightly a perfect medium. Maybe they'll get a bunch of surplus A1o's!

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/28/2020 at 6:51 PM, 11bee said:

If all this happens, wonder if the army will flag a few armor and arty units to support the Marines?    
 

I get that the Pacific region has some unique needs and China is now our new bogeyman but many studies have also forecasted fighting in “mega cities” and in those, armor is absolutely critical to support the grunts.  To completely disband the Marines armor force seems foolhardy.  

on the battlefield it wasn't uncommon for Army and Marines to work together fifty plus years ago. Yeah we bitched, but also respected each other. Honestly; it wouldn't surprise me in the least to read where an entire Marine Division was folded into the 18th Airborne Corp, yet retaining their status as a Marine unit. Face it they already are in the same neighborhood right now

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 3/28/2020 at 9:20 PM, 11bee said:

I saw a movie ages ago (Hambuger Hill?) where someone referred to the 101st as the “Army’s Marines”.   Not sure that was meant as a compliment.  

I have a couple beers with a friend who was on 927 in the Ashau most every Friday night. Donnie's battalion and mine did ops together every two or three months. That statement would have never been said, but with the exception of Hollywood. 

      With the exception of the 1st Air Cav, and SF; nobody went in there (Ashau Valley). And those two didn't vacation there a whole lot. I would have been added to the other two, but that operation ended up a bust. I ended up two klicks south on a mountain top. Yet 927 was just one of several horrific battles they went thru. Look up the Race Track, Ripcord, for a start.

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Da SWO said:

Marines are tailoring for a fight against China.  I think the F-15EX buy is another decision made with an eye on China.

 

Small strikes against all those man-made islands could be done without tanks.  They need an updated AAV though, as anything from the sea better be coming from  "over the horizon"

So we have the Marines equipping for a single, very limited scenario?   Hope our crystal balls are calibrated and work, cause pretty much every war we've gone into has come as a big surprise and we've found ourselves ill-prepared to fight it.    

 

Well, if we ever need to attack and occupy tiny islets in the ocean, protected by a few hundred enemy troops, I guess we'll know who to call. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, 11bee said:

<...>

Hope it all works out cause within a few years, pretty much all of that hard-earned institutional knowledge will be gone.  it's gonna take them a decade to reconstitute what they are giving up.   You think they would have at least kept that reserve tank battalion, "just in case".  

 

German army had to rotate more lighty infantry into Afghanistan. Didn't have enough light infantry available. Retrains tankers instead. Turns out it isn't trivial to make decent light infantry out of tankers. Who would have guessed? Has them in Afghanistan for some time. Rotates them back home. Finds out their tanker skills are f****d. Who would have guessed? Turns out making decent tankers out of light infantry isn't trivial even when talking about just one unit with prior tanker expertise AND with all the institutional knowledge still in place. Who would have frickin' guessed????

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, 11bee said:

So we have the Marines equipping for a single, very limited scenario?   Hope our crystal balls are calibrated and work, cause pretty much every war we've gone into has come as a big surprise and we've found ourselves ill-prepared to fight it.    

 

Well, if we ever need to attack and occupy tiny islets in the ocean, protected by a few hundred enemy troops, I guess we'll know who to call. 

 

 

 

Bill Sweetman kept trying to slander the USMC's plan for the F-35B as being enamored with Guadalcanal, little did he know in 2020 the plan would be for dozens of Guadalcanals

 

22 hours ago, 11bee said:

Buh-bye tanks...

https://www.stripes.com/news/marine-corps/a-farewell-to-armor-marine-corps-shuts-down-tank-units-hauls-away-m1a1s-1.639355

 

Hope it all works out cause within a few years, pretty much all of that hard-earned institutional knowledge will be gone.  it's gonna take them a decade to reconstitute what they are giving up.   You think they would have at least kept that reserve tank battalion, "just in case".  

There seems to be a small reserve group that is going to be kept, but it looks like it will be borrowing tanks. The USMC said flat out you can transfer with the tanks. at least a few Marines are going to the Army by choice.

 

as for arty. HIMARs. HIMARs. and HIMARs. going to do a total flip. where the USMC had 1 small unit of HIMARs and the rest was "real artillery" there will soon be just one small unit of "real Arty" and the rest will be HIMARs.

 

 

I do agree. theres a lot of unknowns. I'd hate to watch us get BTFOed by some 2nd rate force with basic anti armor capability. especially things that aren't the fast moving super fight envisioned. be mighty embarrassing to end up bogged down in central or south america, and some Sicario with an RPG ruins your whole day. 

 

5 hours ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

German army had to rotate more lighty infantry into Afghanistan. Didn't have enough light infantry available. Retrains tankers instead. Turns out it isn't trivial to make decent light infantry out of tankers. Who would have guessed? Has them in Afghanistan for some time. Rotates them back home. Finds out their tanker skills are f****d. Who would have guessed? Turns out making decent tankers out of light infantry isn't trivial even when talking about just one unit with prior tanker expertise AND with all the institutional knowledge still in place. Who would have frickin' guessed????

 

For the USMC at least everyone is expected to be a grunt too anyway (results and opinions vary). the problem is that lots of Marines can drop their specialization and do grunt stuff, but teaching a grunt to shoot artillery or service a tank is a steeper curve. 

 

but you are correct. we had arty guys who did grunt stuff, then civil affairs come back and "sir I haven't fired an M777 in 3 years" and that was really happening. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, ChesshireCat said:

marines have never used heavy artillery all that much. Most have that was from Army units assigned to Marine units. The loss of armor is really a surprise. The drone fad is going to bite them real hard as it's not even slightly a perfect medium. Maybe they'll get a bunch of surplus A1o's!

gary

I can't speak for yesteryear....but during the last decade the Marines have been shooting like its going out of style. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, fulcrum1 said:during the last decade the Marines have been shooting like its going out of style. 

Which, apparently, it is.  
 

Can’t judge the arty decision. If HIMARS is really all it’s cracked up to be, maybe that change won’t be as big of an issue.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, fulcrum1 said:

I can't speak for yesteryear....but during the last decade the Marines have been shooting like its going out of style. 

 

They deadlined cannons in Syria

 

 

A small Marine artillery battalion fired more rounds than any artillery battalion since Vietnam.

“They fired more rounds in five months in Raqqa, Syria, than any other Marine artillery battalion, or any Marine or Army battalion, since the Vietnam war,” said Army Sgt. Major. John Wayne Troxell, the senior enlisted adviser to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

 

It’s an explosive revelation that sheds light on the immense level of lethal force brought to Raqqa and northern Syria in support of U.S. counter-ISIS operations.

play_circle_filledA U.S. Marine fires an M777-A2 Howitzer in Syria, June 1, 2017. (Sgt. Matthew Callahan/Marine Corps)
Marine artillery barrage of Raqqa was so intense two howitzers burned out

The artillery barrage of Raqqa was so intense U.S. Marines burned out the barrels of two M777 howitzers while supporting U.S.- backed Syrian fighters.

Shawn Snow

“In five months they fired 35,000 artillery rounds on ISIS targets, killing ISIS fighters by the dozens,” Troxell told Marine Corps Times during a roundtable discussion Jan. 23. “We needed them to put pressure on ISIS and we needed them to kill ISIS.”

To put the numbers in context: During all of Operation Desert Storm, both the Marines and the Army fired a little more than 60,000 artillery rounds.

In the invasion of Iraq, just over 34,000 rounds were fired.

Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/8/2020 at 10:59 PM, 11bee said:

Was referring to the towed 155mm howitzers that were organic to each Marine division.  

a 155 is not considered heavy artillery. It's listed as medium. I think rockets have taken over the slot filled by the 175 gun and 8" howitzers. That kinda makes sense to me. My old unit is now part of the First Armored CAV at Ft. Hood, and they seem to have a little bit of everything in their inventory. From rockets to M109a7's (which they don't like). 

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, fulcrum1 said:

I can't speak for yesteryear....but during the last decade the Marines have been shooting like its going out of style. 

you are correct. Yet the 155mm bore is considered a medium piece of arty. The United States does not use anything bigger anymore. I can see why, but there are times it's needed. 

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

 

They deadlined cannons in Syria

 

 

A small Marine artillery battalion fired more rounds than any artillery battalion since Vietnam.

“They fired more rounds in five months in Raqqa, Syria, than any other Marine artillery battalion, or any Marine or Army battalion, since the Vietnam war,” said Army Sgt. Major. John Wayne Troxell, the senior enlisted adviser to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

 

It’s an explosive revelation that sheds light on the immense level of lethal force brought to Raqqa and northern Syria in support of U.S. counter-ISIS operations.

play_circle_filledA U.S. Marine fires an M777-A2 Howitzer in Syria, June 1, 2017. (Sgt. Matthew Callahan/Marine Corps)
Marine artillery barrage of Raqqa was so intense two howitzers burned out

The artillery barrage of Raqqa was so intense U.S. Marines burned out the barrels of two M777 howitzers while supporting U.S.- backed Syrian fighters.

Shawn Snow

“In five months they fired 35,000 artillery rounds on ISIS targets, killing ISIS fighters by the dozens,” Troxell told Marine Corps Times during a roundtable discussion Jan. 23. “We needed them to put pressure on ISIS and we needed them to kill ISIS.”

To put the numbers in context: During all of Operation Desert Storm, both the Marines and the Army fired a little more than 60,000 artillery rounds.

In the invasion of Iraq, just over 34,000 rounds were fired.

that's another issue the Army is facing. Barrel life with the newer lightweight barrels and hotter burning powders is starting to show it's ugly face so I've been told. Then there's the excessive chamber pressures issue that's cracking trunions and carriages of the new guns. The old 155 used to have a 10,000 factor number for bore life. That works out to 10K shots with a charge seven. Would be far greater with lighter charges (say 15,000 with a charge five green bag). That was the main issue with the 175 gun. It had a 80 round bore life with zone three charges! Plus the gun was pretty much unsafe on a perfect day to shoot. While the eight inch would go the 10,000 factor number with ease. Your the tax payer, and your buying these barrels.

       My battery in RVN shot roughly 12000 rounds every thirty days. Some months we shot far more, and some months we shot a little less. Charlie Battery shot about the same, and Alpha shot about two thirds the amount. During Tet in 68 we shot out the ammo dumps in Chu Lai, DaNang, and San Francisco. Started shooting ammo made in 1944 and by mid May were shooting new stuff. They were unloaded directly out of LST's to landing nets to be flown all over I-Corp. Now my battery shot roughly 110,000 rounds a year just in H&I's. Charlie was shooting just about the same. Then you had your basic fire missions added on top of this number. Usually 75 to a 125 rounds a day. We shot so much that they actually cut the rounds shot per tube, per day due to shortages. Some 105 units averaged 450 shots a day, and of course some shot about 200 a day for the whole battery. I've seen 155 SPG units that didn't shoot a hundred rounds a week, while we were shooting 250 a day right next to them. Never could figure that one out! 

       Barrel life is really only a part of the equation. Breeches take a serious beating, and then the recoil system goes south often. We had a gun flown out every two weeks for a breech or recoil system failure from the heat alone. I've seen barrels glow in the dark! There is no way to make sanity of putting that much steel in the air, and those 19 year old kids don't really care. 

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...
4 hours ago, 11bee said:


🤮

 

The whole situation. Glad the boys got at least got a choice even if it’s just blindfold or no blindfold on the firing line. I hope I am wrong but I am pretty it will play out like CA said about the German Army but with lots of grunt and tanker blood spilled later for no good reason. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Marines are now getting into ASW.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37458/marine-corps-boss-has-big-plans-to-get-into-the-business-of-hunting-and-killing-submarines

 

Almost feels like in these days of our adversaries having serious area denial capabilities, they are desperately looking for a way to stay relevant.   Maybe time to move off the planet entirely?

Honoring the Brave Colonial Space Marines from 'Aliens' | Ultimate Action  Movie Club

In space, no one can hear you "OOOH RAHH!".

Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

Almost feels like in these days of our adversaries having serious area denial capabilities, they are desperately looking for a way to stay relevant.


 

 

almost feels like you didn't bother to understand the article you posted. 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...