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3 hours ago, 11bee said:

 

That contradicts everything that's out there in the press.  The choice to make a port call for a naval task group isn't left up to the captain.  Especially one like this that had major diplomatic implications.   This port call was special and was approved months in advance by both the highest levels of the Navy and the State Dept.  Shortly before it occurred, the visit was re-approved because the folks in charge didn't think the virus was an issue in that part of the country.     

 

Given the SECNAV's crusade to trash this guy's reputation, don't you think that if you're buddies story was really the case, that info would be have put out to the public to further the SECNAV's story? 

 

 I think your friend got some fake news there. 

I can't personally say who is right and wrong, but my friend has actually been integral to planning US Navy visits to Vietnam in recent times, so I'm guessing he knows a bit more about it than what's been floating around in the press.  If I had to choose which was "fake news" - stuff coming out of the press or someone who has actually been involved in US Navy visits to the country - I think I am more inclined to believe someone who's actually gone through the process and assume the press was the fake news.

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5 hours ago, 11bee said:

Wow...    To go off on an officer like this pretty sad.  This isn't wartime, there are no OPSEC issues, his requests for help were not being addressed in anything close to a timely manner and he put his crew before his own career and that makes him a immature, spoiled brat?   You sound like that train wreck of an ex-(acting) SECNAV.  

 

As far as if one of my workers went over my head....  Won't speak for others but in my company we've got a culture that encourages this.   Safety is priority one and anyone in the organization is entitled (and expected) to elevate concerns as high up the chain as they need to if they don't get an answer they are comfortable with from their immediate supervisor (or his boss).   I had one of my reports do this and I commended him for following his training.  It takes a lot of balls to go over your bosses head and my worker a did the right thing. 

 

Update - the first COVID related death from the TR's crew has just been reported.  Total number of infected sailors is close to 600 and as of yesterday, the Navy still hasn't completed testing of the entire crew.  

 

 

Ok IKE

 

One Important thing you are not getting, the US Navy is not a company/corporation, it's a branch of the US Military and thus it's people are expected to follow the CoC and orders.

 

And as far as OPSEC, please tell me what training you've had concerning OPSEC and when was the last time you completed that training. 

 

And it's funny how you will believe what you read in the news vice what people in the know and who have actually been there done that tell you. 

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17 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

Ok IKE

 

One Important thing you are not getting, the US Navy is not a company/corporation, it's a branch of the US Military and thus it's people are expected to follow the CoC and orders.

 

And as far as OPSEC, please tell me what training you've had concerning OPSEC and when was the last time you completed that training. 

 

And it's funny how you will believe what you read in the news vice what people in the know and who have actually been there done that tell you. 

Easy Boomer, I get that the military is different.  You asked a question in your earlier post about how you would feel if someone went over their bosses head over a safety issue.  I answered it.

 

Guessing my last OPSEC training class was probably a decade or so after yours.

 

As far listening to people that have been there done that, I didn't know you commanded an aircraft carrier.   My apologies Capt, I guess you were right after all. 

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None of this bickering matters now that there are fatalities (not that it really did to begin with).

 

One thing I have read here the last few days is that there's a lot of "Well I know a guy who knows a guy" or "My sources know this happened or that happened" type of dung being flown around. I'm not saying anyone is spreading false information but c'mon, if there's certain details to the lead up of the ships port call such as who knew what and when, or even if someone that knows someone that has details about who was notified and what was said upon the stop in Guam, that should be widely published by now. Playing these little games only makes it look worse for the Navy by now coming clean with the debacle.  

Edited by Whiskey
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45 minutes ago, 11bee said:

Easy Boomer, I get that the military is different. 

AHHH...BOOMER, there it is, the mark of an intelligent come back. :woot.gif: Why don't you just call him daddy-o, or pops or something nickname snotty-nosed youth would call the older generations from times passed. Perhaps one day, the know-it-all generation will figure out that they didn't really know much of it after all. 

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25 minutes ago, niart17 said:

AHHH...BOOMER, there it is, the mark of an intelligent come back. :woot.gif: Why don't you just call him daddy-o, or pops or something nickname snotty-nosed youth would call the older generations from times passed. Perhaps one day, the know-it-all generation will figure out that they didn't really know much of it after all. 

Oh come on Niart, we're all big boys here.  Please tell me no one is butt hurt by this stuff?  If you really are concerned about everyone's feelings, why didn't you throw the challenge flag when "snowflake" got used?  That upset me so much I had to run to my safe space in tears.  

 

I'm just passing the time perusing a semi-interesting thread on a rainy afternoon.  One of the downfalls of working from home I suppose.   

 

If GW's feeling are hurt, he can jump in here and I'll be glad to apologize.  

 

    

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Hey my cousin Vinnie  knows a guy that knows a guy that can get us some  some big TV's they fell off a truck but they're like brand new interested ? OOPS wrong forum never mind

Ken

 

Edited by KenM
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4 hours ago, 11bee said:

Oh come on Niart, we're all big boys here.  Please tell me no one is butt hurt by this stuff?  If you really are concerned about everyone's feelings, why didn't you throw the challenge flag when "snowflake" got used?  That upset me so much I had to run to my safe space in tears.  

 

I'm just passing the time perusing a semi-interesting thread on a rainy afternoon.  One of the downfalls of working from home I suppose.   

 

If GW's feeling are hurt, he can jump in here and I'll be glad to apologize.  

 

    

You're hysterical IKE, a real comedian.

 

No need to worry about my "feelings", I got rid of those years ago.

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20 hours ago, GW8345 said:

Ok IKE

 

One Important thing you are not getting, the US Navy is not a company/corporation, it's a branch of the US Military and thus it's people are expected to follow the CoC and orders.

 

And as far as OPSEC, please tell me what training you've had concerning OPSEC and when was the last time you completed that training. 

 

And it's funny how you will believe what you read in the news vice what people in the know and who have actually been there done that tell you. 

I've been involved in navy telecom for 40 years, all commands. This isn't 1940; most every sailor on that ship has an iphone, ipad or PC plus the internet service to use it, plus pay phone and cell service close to land.   The chinese know where that ship is via satellite recon and its probably being tailed by a chinese sub so let's not overdo the opsec stuff.  One message from one sailor to mom or dad about the virus that goes to any congressional rep regardless of party and you have a congressional shitstorm.  I've been involved in that too.

 

the navy was clearly more interested in keeping that ship operational then it was in the safety and health of 5000 sailors, and quite frankly, that's almost criminal. One carrier, out of commission for a few months isn't going to shift the balance of power in the pacific. Lord only knows how the PRC navy has been affected. The chinese aren't going to make a move based on one ship.  In fact, as far as we know, someone may have called them up and warned them.  My speech would have been " hey, we're taking a carrier out of service and the only ship we have to replace it is a SSBN Ohio class so be careful". The captain did a brave and wonderful thing, the chain of command be damned.  

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27 minutes ago, Viasistina said:

I've been involved in navy telecom for 40 years, all commands. This isn't 1940; most every sailor on that ship has an iphone, ipad or PC plus the internet service to use it, plus pay phone and cell service close to land.   The chinese know where that ship is via satellite recon and its probably being tailed by a chinese sub so let's not overdo the opsec stuff.  One message from one sailor to mom or dad about the virus that goes to any congressional rep regardless of party and you have a congressional shitstorm.  I've been involved in that too.

 

the navy was clearly more interested in keeping that ship operational then it was in the safety and health of 5000 sailors, and quite frankly, that's almost criminal. One carrier, out of commission for a few months isn't going to shift the balance of power in the pacific. Lord only knows how the PRC navy has been affected. The chinese aren't going to make a move based on one ship.  In fact, as far as we know, someone may have called them up and warned them.  My speech would have been " hey, we're taking a carrier out of service and the only ship we have to replace it is a SSBN Ohio class so be careful". The captain did a brave and wonderful thing, the chain of command be damned.  

What was that you were saying about China "aren't going to make a move based on one ship"?

 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/13/china-sends-aircraft-carrier-near-japan-taiwan-us-navy-struggles-coronavirus.html

https://www.newsweek.com/china-holds-navy-drills-pacific-us-aircraft-carriers-hit-coronavirus-1497163

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8215511/China-takes-advantage-USS-Roosevelt-crippled-coronavirus-send-jets-close-Taiwan.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiwan-china-defence/taiwan-says-chinese-carrier-group-drills-close-to-island-idUSKCN21U0KE

 

So, where's the Ready Up Carrier and how long will it take to get on station?

 

As for the OPSEC, I'm not talking about the ships movements, I'm talking about the condition of the ship and crew, that is classified info, which the Skipper who you all love, exposed to the media.

 

So, answer me this;

 

Why didn't the Skipper use SIPRNET?

Why didn't the Skipper walk down the P-way and talk to the BGC?

Why didn't the Skipper contact 7th Fleet?

Why didn't the Skipper call the SecNav, he had direct number.

 

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Also, going by the vast majority's "we're not at war, no sailor needs to die" mantra here, answer me this;

 

Do we only conduct flight ops during war time?

Do we only conduct Naval Operations during war time?

Do we only do maintenance during war time?

Edited by GW8345
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1 minute ago, GW8345 said:

Also, going by the vast majority's "we're not at war, no sailor needs to die" mantra here, answer me this;

 

Do we only conduct flight ops during war time?

Do we only conduct Naval Operations during war time?

Do we only do maintenance during war time?

How do you know he didnt use siprnet? he certainly didnt mail that letter.

how do you know he didnt contact the BGC?  who was the BGC?

how do you know he didnt contact the secnav or 7th fleet? Maybe he did all of that and they slow rolled him.

We''re not at war with China. They can sail  their fleet anytime or anywhere they wish.  I always thought it was kind of interesting that we steam around the south china sea and think that's ok.  Imagine if the PNC steamed around the gulf of mexico on a routine basis?

 

As for your another comments about ops; they're and part of the mission.  Having a deadly virus running rampant on the ship isnt.   

Fact is, we agree to disagree. You think the captain was wrong, I think he was right.  So be it.

 

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23 hours ago, 11bee said:

Oh come on Niart, we're all big boys here.  Please tell me no one is butt hurt by this stuff?  If you really are concerned about everyone's feelings, why didn't you throw the challenge flag when "snowflake" got used?  That upset me so much I had to run to my safe space in tears.  

 

I'm just passing the time perusing a semi-interesting thread on a rainy afternoon.  One of the downfalls of working from home I suppose.   

 

If GW's feeling are hurt, he can jump in here and I'll be glad to apologize.  

 

    

Butt hurt? Nah not really...I just find if funny. It's typically (not always but more often than not) the sign of a very immature young person who thinks they know better than the adults in the room. That's all. I don't necessarily think that's the case here because I THINK you have at least a little respect for what the veteran here might know. But I do find the term comical really.

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5 hours ago, Viasistina said:

How do you know he didnt use siprnet? he certainly didnt mail that letter.

how do you know he didnt contact the BGC?  who was the BGC?

how do you know he didnt contact the secnav or 7th fleet? Maybe he did all of that and they slow rolled him.

We''re not at war with China. They can sail  their fleet anytime or anywhere they wish.  I always thought it was kind of interesting that we steam around the south china sea and think that's ok.  Imagine if the PNC steamed around the gulf of mexico on a routine basis?

 

As for your another comments about ops; they're and part of the mission.  Having a deadly virus running rampant on the ship isnt.   

Fact is, we agree to disagree. You think the captain was wrong, I think he was right.  So be it.

 

I had an uncle that did every enlistment on aircraft carriers from 1943 on. He retired at the end of the cruise before the incident on the Forrestal. He was a Master Chief over the crash crew. He ask me often about what combat was like on the ground, and I often asked him about life on a big ship. I loved him to death. He told me once that when they left port they were considered a combat unit 24/7, and were until they returned. Never forget that and all the hell he gave me for not just going into the Navy. Always responded that I get sea sick and am not a great swimmer! To hear him speak, he'd had a heart attack thinking about these events. 

     I had the unfortunate experience of call a piece out in the middle of a bad time. It was CBL'd not matter how you look at it. Plus there were only three folks left. We had visits from everybody you could think of. From a General all the way down to a Sargent Major. Lots of photographs taken. The General asked where the rest of us were, and the First Sargent and Sargent Major took him inside a bunker to view the bags waiting for pick up. He asked what he could do, and we said warm bodies, and an EOD crew. While all this was going on there were messages from Westy and the Pentagon, but we never felt we were ineffective. We were once again a combat unit in 72 hours. Never once had the thought of leaving the field. 

just a sad situation!

gary

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On 4/14/2020 at 12:00 PM, GW8345 said:

What was that you were saying about China "aren't going to make a move based on one ship"?

 

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/04/13/china-sends-aircraft-carrier-near-japan-taiwan-us-navy-struggles-coronavirus.html

https://www.newsweek.com/china-holds-navy-drills-pacific-us-aircraft-carriers-hit-coronavirus-1497163

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8215511/China-takes-advantage-USS-Roosevelt-crippled-coronavirus-send-jets-close-Taiwan.html

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-taiwan-china-defence/taiwan-says-chinese-carrier-group-drills-close-to-island-idUSKCN21U0KE

 

So, where's the Ready Up Carrier and how long will it take to get on station?

 

As for the OPSEC, I'm not talking about the ships movements, I'm talking about the condition of the ship and crew, that is classified info, which the Skipper who you all love, exposed to the media.

 

So, answer me this;

 

Why didn't the Skipper use SIPRNET?

Why didn't the Skipper walk down the P-way and talk to the BGC?

Why didn't the Skipper contact 7th Fleet?

Why didn't the Skipper call the SecNav, he had direct number.

 

 

Nothing indicates he violated any OPSEC or release classified information.  The ship was already in port in Guam when he wrote the letter.  

 

The BGC was on the ship, how could he not know what was going on?  

 

The Captains letter was sent to 10 people, not the 20 or 30 the former acting SECNAV claimed.    It was sent to the Strike Group Commander , Rear Adm. Stuart Baker, the US Pacific Fleet Commander, Adm. John Aquilino, and the commander of Pacific Naval air forces, Vice Adm. DeWolfe Miller.   The other 7 included are all Captains, 5 of them live on the Roosevelt, the Strike Group XO, the CAG, the deputy CAG, the Destroyer Squadron commander, and the senior medical officer.    All the speculation about him going outside the chain of command or violating OPSEC was false.   He went to the chain of command, including senior officers who were certainly involved and had a need to know.  

 

So why did the former, acting SECNAV lie about the letter? He knew who it went to and still lied about it, then he went to the TR and attacked the Captains character.  If the Navy doesn't reinstate Captain Crozier they have a lot of explaining to do.  

 

 

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On 4/14/2020 at 12:05 PM, GW8345 said:

Also, going by the vast majority's "we're not at war, no sailor needs to die" mantra here, answer me this;

 

Do we only conduct flight ops during war time?

Do we only conduct Naval Operations during war time?

Do we only do maintenance during war time?

In my 25 years I don't think I've ever heard somebody say that is acceptable to take an unnecessary risk that will likely lead to the loss of life when we aren't in combat.   We aren't at war in the Pacific and no sailor needed to die.  Everything you mentioned has risk, but we mitigate the risk and never intentionally put someone in the position where there is a high risk of dying.   I am a paratrooper, that's a risky job, but we never put ourselves or our troops at even greater risk by cutting precautions or not using common sense.  

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I wonder if any of you actually know who that Sailor was as you stand on their coffin to proclaim your righteousness. I'm thinking you don't even have a clue who it was, you're just using that Sailor's death as justification for your opinion, how mighty compassionate of you.

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1 minute ago, GW8345 said:

I wonder if any of you actually know who that Sailor was as you stand on their coffin to proclaim your righteousness. I'm thinking you don't even have a clue who it was, you're just using that Sailor's death as justification for your opinion, how mighty compassionate of you.

 

I didn't know him, not that I need to know him for his death to be tragic..   I do know the Captain went to his chain of command for help, and the weasel former acting SECNAV fired him for it.  The acting SECNAV lied about the Captain, and then attacked his character in front of the ships crew.    From everything we know the Captain did everything right, and the acting SECNAV did not.     

 

You've made claims about violating OPSEC which didn't happen, the Captain went to the chain of command.  He did what a good commander would do, and he was relieved for it.  

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1 hour ago, GW8345 said:

I wonder if any of you actually know who that Sailor was as you stand on their coffin to proclaim your righteousness. I'm thinking you don't even have a clue who it was, you're just using that Sailor's death as justification for your opinion, how mighty compassionate of you.

 

Who here is using the sailor's death as a justification or anything for that matter? All I stated was none of this matters because there is a sailor dead now. How is that a justification?

 

What about this entire situation has made to where you are so ill-willed about Captain Crozier, the ship, or the Navy? You sound so bitter about the whole thing. There is so much you have said that makes me wonder if you actually care at all about anyone affected by this.

 

Just remember, it's not your Navy (or my Army for that matter) anymore. The moment you became a civilian it no longer belongs to you (or I). 

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1 hour ago, Whiskey said:

Just remember, it's not your Navy (or my Army for that matter) anymore. The moment you became a civilian it no longer belongs to you (or I). 

Once again, you are wrong.

 

I'm not a civilian, I'm a US Navy Retiree and I am still supporting the USN/USMC as a contractor so it's still my Navy. While I may have retired my oath to serve has no expiration date.

 

As far as me "not" caring, the Sailor who passed happened to be a fellow AOC so you can bugger off about that not caring BS.

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11 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

While I may have retired my oath to serve has no expiration date.

 

Then maybe you need to re-read the Oath of Enlistment and the Constitution that you and I have both sworn to uphold because you sure as hell haven't said anything that sounds like you know what your're defending.

Edited by Whiskey
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57 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

I'm not a civilian, I'm a US Navy Retiree and I am still supporting the USN/USMC as a contractor so it's still my Navy. 

Err.....   based on the above, you’re a civilian bud.    
 

But thank you for your service and for keeping all of us snowflakes safe for all those years.  

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1 hour ago, Whiskey said:

 

Then maybe you need to re-read the Oath of Enlistment and the Constitution that you and I have both sworn to uphold because you sure as hell haven't said anything that sounds like you know what your're defending.

Please, enlighten me. (this ought to be good for a laugh or two)

44 minutes ago, 11bee said:

Err.....   based on the above, you’re a civilian bud.    
 

But thank you for your service and for keeping all of us snowflakes safe for all those years.  

Wrong again IKE, a civilian does not have access to military services such as the NEX, Commissary, Pharmacy, a retiree does. Oh, and that monthly check (though small) does come in handy.

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