USS Theodore Roosevelt

[11bee]

3 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

Wrong again IKE, a civilian does not have access to military services such as the NEX, Commissary, Pharmacy, a retiree does. 

Sure they do GW, you’re a civilian (in denial apparently but still a civilian) and by your own admission, you get access to all those services.

Unless you have an active military ID, you’re nothing but a long-haired, out of shape, gangsta rap music listening civilian, just like the rest of us.  
 

Welcome aboard bud!   

[GW8345]

4 minutes ago, 11bee said:

Sure they do GW, you’re a civilian (in denial apparently but still a civilian) and by your own admission, you get access to all those services.

Unless you have an active military ID, you’re nothing but a long-haired, out of shape, gangsta rap music listening civilian, just like the rest of us.  
 

Welcome aboard bud!   

For the record, I hate gangster rap, classic rock (Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Styx, etc) is more my liking.

 

As to the long hair, yea, I can't go get a hair cut due to the stupid lock down rule and I'm not out of shape, round is a shape so I'm in perfect shape.

[Whiskey]

29 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

For the record, I hate gangster rap, classic rock (Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Styx, etc) is more my liking.

 

As to the long hair, yea, I can't go get a hair cut due to the stupid lock down rule and I'm not out of shape, round is a shape so I'm in perfect shape.

 

That "stupid lock down rule" is keeping more people from getting sick and possibly dying. Once again a demonstration of how little you care about the country you live in and the other people that populate it.

 

I wonder what your opinion would be if you were on the Teddy Roosevelt during this crisis.

[Mstor]

1 hour ago, Whiskey said:

classic rock (Pink Floyd, AC/DC, Styx, etc) is more my liking.

 

AC/DC and Styx are even music in my book. You want classic rock, listen to Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, Jethro Tull, Jefferson Airplane, Frank Zappa, . That was real music and I am a card carrying, long haired (where there is still hair) hippie. I saw those bands(all except Jefferson Airplane, drat) so I should know. Oh, and Pink Floyd is great too. Now where did I leave my acid?

[Mstor]

1 hour ago, Whiskey said:

That "stupid lock down rule" is keeping more people from getting sick and possibly dying. Once again a demonstration of how little you care about the country you live in and the other people that populate it.

 

I find it just amazing and unfathomable just how ignorant people can be. In the face of overwhelming scientific and statistical data, they refuse to accept the reality of the situation. Ignoring the stay at home restrictions is idiotic. I feel sorry for those people, because they are inevitably going to end up getting and spreading the virus. As of today almost 700,000 cases and over 35,000 deaths in the USA.

[GW8345]

2 hours ago, Whiskey said:

 

That "stupid lock down rule" is keeping more people from getting sick and possibly dying. Once again a demonstration of how little you care about the country you live in and the other people that populate it.

 

I wonder what your opinion would be if you were on the Teddy Roosevelt during this crisis.

Right now my state has 12k cases, that is 0.2% of the population and our governor has people hiding in their houses in fear of some invisible boogeyman. While an area of my state does have a high number of cases my county has 0.08% of the population yet I can't go get a freaking hair cut, wash my truck or go to church because some idiot thinks those service are "non-essential", but I can go get all the beer I can drink!

 

For the country, we have put 22 million people out of a job, ruined countless lives and small businesses, and for what? People are so paranoid and panicked right now that if you cough in public it's viewed worst than farting in church.

 

As I write this the number of deaths due to the Chinese Virus is @ 40K, that is 0.011% of the population. We destroyed millions of small businesses and lives for 0.01% of the population, we lose more than that every year to car accidents and I don't see anyone shutting down the use of vehicles.

 

You may think I care very little about this country but you couldn't be farther from the truth, I care so much for this country that I was willing to give my life for it for 20 years. I believe that life has risks, you mitigate those risks but you do not fear those risks, you respect them. If you fear them you stop thinking logically and start thinking emotionally and when you start thinking emotionally you start screwing up, and that leads to mistakes which leads to bad things happening.

 

Now, if you want to live in fear, go right ahead, but for me, I'll respect the danger and will take steps to mitigate the risks to my family and myself.

 

As for what my opinion would be if I was on the Roosevelt, I would say screw it and lets get on with the job.

 

See, I been on that ship and other's like it and every time I stepped foot on a ship I accepted the fact that I may never step off of it again. I didn't work in some office down below, I worked on the flight deck, I did one of the most dangerous jobs in the world (CAG-ARM and Finalchecker). If you do not accept the risk that you may never walk off that ship again then you shouldn't have stepped on it in the first place. You could get killed working on the flight deck, in the shower (yes, we had someone killed while taking a freaking shower) or by some virus/disease you picked you in BFE, there is a higher chance of death than any other job and if you can't accept that then you should've joined the peace corps.

 

Hell, for all we know, the majority of us may have already have had the virus and didn't even know it.

 

Life is not with out risk, I would rather live in dangerous freedom than secure tyranny.

[GW8345]

1 hour ago, Mstor said:

 

AC/DC and Styx are even music in my book. You want classic rock, listen to Jimi Hendrix Experience, Cream, Jethro Tull, Jefferson Airplane, Frank Zappa, . That was real music and I am a card carrying, long haired (where there is still hair) hippie. I saw those bands(all except Jefferson Airplane, drat) so I should know. Oh, and Pink Floyd is great too. Now where did I leave my acid?

Naw, that stuff is a little bit too early for my blood, I like the mid 70's onward stuff. I'm more into Motley Crue, Van Halen, The Call, WASP, Whitesnake, Dio and Queen.

[GW8345]

1 hour ago, Mstor said:

 

I find it just amazing and unfathomable just how ignorant people can be. In the face of overwhelming scientific and statistical data, they refuse to accept the reality of the situation. Ignoring the stay at home restrictions is idiotic. I feel sorry for those people, because they are inevitably going to end up getting and spreading the virus. As of today almost 700,000 cases and over 35,000 deaths in the USA.

How do you know that you haven't had the virus already?

 

There's info just coming out that some scientist think that the number of cases in the US is 85 times more than what is being report, that's over 62 million people.

 

And don't give me this crap about science, remember when the scientist were saying there was no chance of human to human transmission, or when they said you didn't need to wear a face mask. The so called scientist don't know what's going on for certain, if they did they wouldn't be lowering the projected number of deaths ever three or so days. Remember, when all this started those "scientist" said we (the US) would lose around 2 million people, now they are saying it's around 60K, that's a far lower number than what they said 3 weeks ago.

 

Oh, and those same scientist say that there are only 2 genders, how many genders do you believe their are?

[Mstor]

56 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

How do you know that you haven't had the virus already?

 

There's info just coming out that some scientist think that the number of cases in the US is 85 times more than what is being report, that's over 62 million people.

 

And don't give me this crap about science, remember when the scientist were saying there was no chance of human to human transmission, or when they said you didn't need to wear a face mask. The so called scientist don't know what's going on for certain, if they did they wouldn't be lowering the projected number of deaths ever three or so days. Remember, when all this started those "scientist" said we (the US) would lose around 2 million people, now they are saying it's around 60K, that's a far lower number than what they said 3 weeks ago.

 

Oh, and those same scientist say that there are only 2 genders, how many genders do you believe their are?

 

I don't know if I've had the virus. There is very little testing going on. I have no idea how I would get tested except maybe to catch it and get real sick.

 

Can you provide citations for some of your claims, like that the number of cases is 85 times more than what is being reported?  Where are you getting your information?

 

Who would you have us look to for advice about this pandemic if not scientists and medical experts? Politicians? Scientists are not perfect and need to revise their predictions based on new data. That's how science works. And no, I don't remember them saying we would lose 2 million people. Maybe they have revised their predictions based on the fact that many states are enforcing the social distancing rules.

 

Regarding the face mask recommendations, from the New York Times Coronavirus FAQ; "The C.D.C. has recommended that all Americans wear cloth masks if they go out in public. This is a shift in federal guidance reflecting new concerns that the coronavirus is being spread by infected people who have no symptoms. Until now, the C.D.C., like the W.H.O., has advised that ordinary people don’t need to wear masks unless they are sick and coughing. Part of the reason was to preserve medical-grade masks for health care workers who desperately need them at a time when they are in continuously short supply. Masks don’t replace hand washing and social distancing."

 

Finally, I'll bite, how many genders do you think there are?

[SBARC]

3 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

I find it just amazing and unfathomable just how ignorant people can be. In the face of overwhelming scientific and statistical data, they refuse to accept the reality of the situation. Ignoring the stay at home restrictions is idiotic. I feel sorry for those people, because they are inevitably going to end up getting and spreading the virus. As of today almost 700,000 cases and over 35,000 deaths in the USA.

 

Currently the Covid-19 numbers in the 5 main english speaking countries.   https://wuflu.live/

USA  327 million  39,022 dead

UK  66 million  15,506 dead

Canada 38 million  1,521 dead

Australia  25 million    70 dead

New Zealand   5 million  12 dead

 

Sorry guys...but the USA and UK are doing horribly. 

 

[Mstor]

9 minutes ago, SBARC said:

 

Currently the Covid-19 numbers in the 5 main english speaking countries.   https://wuflu.live/

USA  327 million  39,022 dead

UK  66 million  15,506 dead

Canada 38 million  1,521 dead

Australia  25 million    70 dead

New Zealand   5 million  12 dead

 

Sorry guys...but the USA and UK are doing horribly. 

 

 

I saw that. UK was late to institute social distancing too. These numbers are all terrible, doesn't matter how many have died, its just very saddening.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Mstor

[Zactoman]

 

58 minutes ago, SBARC said:

Currently the Covid-19 numbers in the 5 main english speaking countries.   https://wuflu.live/

USA  327 million  39,022 dead

UK  66 million  15,506 dead

Canada 38 million  1,521 dead

Australia  25 million    70 dead

New Zealand   5 million  12 dead

 

Sorry guys...but the USA and UK are doing horribly.

Those number comparisons should be taken with a grain of salt. There is no set standard for how countries gather and report data. US has been considering infected patients that died as having died from the virus regardless of whether they would have died anyway, while some countries are doing the opposite. In addition, some (non-English) countries are hiding their true numbers...
This site seems to have more up to date numbers:  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

As for the US,
Consider that 44% of US cases and 56% of US deaths were in NY/NJ. The vast majority of the US isn't nearly as densely populated and doesn't rely on subways to get around. On top of that, NY screwed up big time. They didn't close their schools until a week later than most. They continued to use the subways, even closing down some and forcing more people to use the ones still running, including many of the health care workers. They waited too long to shut down restaurants, bars and non-essential workplaces. All this in the most densely populated place in the country, a place that should have acted much quicker than other areas.
If you take NY/NJ out of the equation it doesn't look so bad.

 

Of course there are lots of other examples of negligence that led to disaster (i.e. Mardi Gras, Florida Spring break, Smithfield Foods, etc.).

Workplaces should implement reasonable guidelines and procedures to protect their workers and customers. The CDC has these guidelines listed on their website. Businesses that don't follow the guidelines should be disciplined.

I'd hope that governors would take extra precautions in areas that could go South. Las Vegas comes to mind and it troubles me that the mayor there  is so anxious to re-open. I think that any areas that attract outsiders/tourists (i.e. amusement parks, cruise ships, etc.) should delay re-opening or make extreme changes to protect those visiting, but he majority of the country should get back to work.

 

It makes sense to end the shut-down as soon as safely possible.

Considering that the average length of mild cases is about 2 weeks, shutting everything non-essential down for 15 days made sense, 30 days to be extra sure seemed reasonable but perhaps a bit much. Patients with more extreme conditions would of course be isolated and their contacts would be monitored and quarantined as necessary.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the the Wuhan Virus shouldn't be respected, feared and all necessary precautions taken. Because this impacts the elderly and those with underlying medical conditions, extra caution is mandatory in protecting them. I haven't been closer than 20' from my mom since this started and we have had zero cases in our county.

 

In areas that cases are receding, if everybody continues to follow the guidelines that the CDC issued, stays home and/or contacts doctor when sick, maintains social distancing (face masks can't hurt), doesn't touch their face, washes their hands frequently, doesn't cough or sneeze openly and disinfects surfaces regularly, then there's no reason that we can't end the shut down and get back to a somewhat normal life.

 

As GW pointed out, it looks like lots more have been infected but didn't even know it.

1 hour ago, Mstor said:

Can you provide citations for some of your claims, like that the number of cases is 85 times more than what is being reported?  Where are you getting your information?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/17/santa-clara-covid-19-antibody-study-suggests-broad-asymptomatic-spread.html
In addition, it was reported that of the Roosevelt cases, about 60% were asymptomatic.

Because of this, following the guidelines is that much more important.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Zactoman

[Mstor]

Thanks Zactoman. Good info. I am just concerned about the push to re-open and reduce restrictions. There have been signs of resurgences of the virus. Until we know more, I think it better to be safe than sorry.

 

Just as I little side note, I was glad to see that the Air Force Academy has taken the restrictions seriously. Article about the recent graduation ceremony. Eight feet between each cadet. No family allowed to attend (live streamed to them).

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/18/837974222/we-ll-get-through-this-pence-tells-air-force-academy-graduates

[Mstor]

14 minutes ago, Zactoman said:

This site seems to have more up to date numbers:  https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

Zactoman, this link just points back to this forum thread.

[nspreitler]

7 hours ago, GW8345 said:

Please, enlighten me. (this ought to be good for a laugh or two)

Wrong again IKE, a civilian does not have access to military services such as the NEX, Commissary, Pharmacy, a retiree does. Oh, and that monthly check (though small) does come in handy.

My wife and my kids have access to all that too,  they are civilians just like you.   

 

What is your opinion of Captain Crozier now that we all know his letter was sent to a few people in the chain of command.   Are you still going to use the ridiculous OPSEC argument to say the Captain was wrong and the former acting SECNAV was right?   

 

When it comes to making decisions Colin Powell said it best 

"The commander in the field is always right and the rear echelon is wrong, unless proved otherwise."     

 

Now we know with certainty the commander was right, and the rear echelon acting SECNAV was very wrong.    

[Zactoman]

8 minutes ago, Mstor said:

Thanks Zactoman. Good info. I am just concerned about the push to re-open and reduce restrictions. There have been signs of resurgences of the virus. Until we know more, I think it better to be safe than sorry.

As I mentioned, there have been zero cases in the county I live in. There have been very few in the surrounding counties. Yet we are still taking the precautions and non-essential businesses have closed down, many of which will likely not be able to re-open.

How many lives should be ruined when they aren't being affected by this?

How many should be ruined when they could take adequate preventative measures?

 

5 minutes ago, Mstor said:

 

Zactoman, this link just points back to this forum thread.

Link fixed: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

[Zactoman]

14 hours ago, nspreitler said:

 

Nothing indicates he violated any OPSEC or release classified information.  The ship was already in port in Guam when he wrote the letter.  

 

The Captains letter was sent to 10 people, not the 20 or 30 the former acting SECNAV claimed...He went to the chain of command, including senior officers who were certainly involved and had a need to know.  

 

So why did the former, acting SECNAV lie about the letter?

 

12 hours ago, nspreitler said:

...The acting SECNAV lied about the Captain, and then attacked his character in front of the ships crew.

 

6 minutes ago, nspreitler said:

Now we know with certainty the commander was right, and the rear echelon acting SECNAV was very wrong.    

Can you please link an article? I have not been following the news on this and what you are saying contradicts what I previously read.

If what you are saying is true, it reinforces my thinking that whoever did leak this to the San Francisco Chronicle should suffer.

I agree that it's not "acceptable to take an unnecessary risk that will likely lead to the loss of life when we aren't in combat", but OPSEC should be maintained whether at war or not and the readiness of our key assets should not have been disclosed.

 

[Mstor]

4 minutes ago, Zactoman said:

As I mentioned, there have been zero cases in the county I live in. There have been very few in the surrounding counties. Yet we are still taking the precautions and non-essential businesses have closed down, many of which will likely not be able to re-open.

How many lives should be ruined when they aren't being affected by this?

How many should be ruined when they could take adequate preventative measures?

 

Link fixed: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

 

I agree that this is taking a very serious toll on business. I cases like your county I would agree that reopening might be a good idea, but that doesn't mean we can make blanket statements about reopening the country. What really needs to happen is massive testing and then retesting of the uninfected as time goes on. Only then will we really know when it is safe to loosen restrictions. Unfortunately, that's not happening. Apparently this is something China got right. They instituted massive testing, they did temperature tests of people entering essential businesses. They also took measures that this country would never allow. Anyone testing positive was removed to isolation facilities. If you then developed symptoms you were taken to another facility to manage your health care. These types of programs would never be tolerated in most Western countries, but they worked and evidently helped them rapidly get a handle on the spread of the virus, particularly in Wuhan. Now, I take what we hear from China with a grain of salt, but those practices make sense in a brutally logical sense. If we could only do something similar, but on a voluntary basis? Probably wouldn't work, oh well.

[nspreitler]

3 hours ago, GW8345 said:

Right now my state has 12k cases, that is 0.2% of the population and our governor has people hiding in their houses in fear of some invisible boogeyman. While an area of my state does have a high number of cases my county has 0.08% of the population yet I can't go get a freaking hair cut, wash my truck or go to church because some idiot thinks those service are "non-essential", but I can go get all the beer I can drink!

 

For the country, we have put 22 million people out of a job, ruined countless lives and small businesses, and for what? People are so paranoid and panicked right now that if you cough in public it's viewed worst than farting in church.

 

As I write this the number of deaths due to the Chinese Virus is @ 40K, that is 0.011% of the population. We destroyed millions of small businesses and lives for 0.01% of the population, we lose more than that every year to car accidents and I don't see anyone shutting down the use of vehicles.

 

You may think I care very little about this country but you couldn't be farther from the truth, I care so much for this country that I was willing to give my life for it for 20 years. I believe that life has risks, you mitigate those risks but you do not fear those risks, you respect them. If you fear them you stop thinking logically and start thinking emotionally and when you start thinking emotionally you start screwing up, and that leads to mistakes which leads to bad things happening.

 

Now, if you want to live in fear, go right ahead, but for me, I'll respect the danger and will take steps to mitigate the risks to my family and myself.

 

As for what my opinion would be if I was on the Roosevelt, I would say screw it and lets get on with the job.

 

See, I been on that ship and other's like it and every time I stepped foot on a ship I accepted the fact that I may never step off of it again. I didn't work in some office down below, I worked on the flight deck, I did one of the most dangerous jobs in the world (CAG-ARM and Finalchecker). If you do not accept the risk that you may never walk off that ship again then you shouldn't have stepped on it in the first place. You could get killed working on the flight deck, in the shower (yes, we had someone killed while taking a freaking shower) or by some virus/disease you picked you in BFE, there is a higher chance of death than any other job and if you can't accept that then you should've joined the peace corps.

 

Hell, for all we know, the majority of us may have already have had the virus and didn't even know it.

 

Life is not with out risk, I would rather live in dangerous freedom than secure tyranny.

The number of deaths is about 40K, but what you refuse to understand is that is with the precautions and restrictions in place.   There is no doubt that without it the number would be far higher, and possibly in the millions.   We've lost 40,000 people and will lose many more even with social distancing and restrictions.    We are learning a lot about this virus, like many people can be carriers and never show symptoms.   That's not a good thing, since it means the only way to know is a test and we don't have tests to give to find out who is really carrying it and who is not.  

 

We've lost almost 40,000, with 30,000 of those in just the last two weeks.  For the last 10 days we've had the equivalent of 9/11 everyday.   Even if this slows by the end of May we will lose more people to COVID than we lost in the entire Vietnam War.

 

You compare this to car accidents for a year, but this hasn't been going on a year.  We've been losing 2000 a day, if that continues we would lose over 700,000 in a year.    

 

You don't like the restrictions so you want to ignore this.  You want to act like it is nothing, which is why I think you are so upset at the TR's Captain.  He took it seriously and you would rather sweep it under the rug because acknowledging it goes against your narrative.

 

Fortunately the military is taking this seriously now,  and we are taking precautions.   I am glad we don't have people like you in charge.  

[Zactoman]

6 minutes ago, Mstor said:

...but that doesn't mean we can make blanket statements about reopening the country.

The only "blanket" statements I've heard are mischaracterizations from the MSM.

Guidelines have been put in place by the Federal Government, but governors make the decisions. https://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/

Quote

State and local officials may need to tailor the application of these criteria to local circumstances (e.g., metropolitan areas that have suffered severe COVID outbreaks, rural and suburban areas where outbreaks have not occurred or have been mild). Additionally, where appropriate, Governors should work on a regional basis to satisfy these criteria and to progress through the phases outlined below.

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

 

Quote

Now, I take what we hear from China with a grain of salt

Word!

 

[nspreitler]

13 minutes ago, Zactoman said:

 

 

Can you please link an article? I have not been following the news on this and what you are saying contradicts what I previously read.

If what you are saying is true, it reinforces my thinking that whoever did leak this to the San Francisco Chronicle should suffer.

I agree that it's not "acceptable to take an unnecessary risk that will likely lead to the loss of life when we aren't in combat", but OPSEC should be maintained whether at war or not and the readiness of our key assets should not have been disclosed.

 

 

I think being concerned about the leak over the welfare of the crew is the wrong answer.   Disembarking the crew and putting them in quarantine isn't something that could have been hidden.   I am not saying leaking it was alright, but there is no way to hide a carrier in port or that the crew was off the ship.   Plus the public release of the letter forced the Navy to act.  It is interesting that a letter from the TR's commander in the press likely saved lives, much like Teddy Roosevelt's leaked letter to his commander in 1898 saved lives.    

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/how-an-outbreak-on-the-uss-roosevelt-became-a-defining-moment-for-the-us-military/2020/04/16/2735f85c-7f24-11ea-8de7-9fdff6d5d83e_story.html

[Zactoman]

10 minutes ago, nspreitler said:

We've lost almost 40,000, with 30,000 of those in just the last two weeks.

Keep in mind that most of those were patients on ventilators that hadn't received the newly discovered treatments early enough such as hydroxychloroquine/zinc or Remdesivir. Things are improving.

 

4 minutes ago, nspreitler said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/how-an-outbreak-on-the-uss-roosevelt-became-a-defining-moment-for-the-us-military/2020/04/16/2735f85c-7f24-11ea-8de7-9fdff6d5d83e_story.html

Thanks for the link, but pay-wall...

 

[Mstor]

29 minutes ago, Zactoman said:

 

 

Can you please link an article? I have not been following the news on this and what you are saying contradicts what I previously read.

If what you are saying is true, it reinforces my thinking that whoever did leak this to the San Francisco Chronicle should suffer.

I agree that it's not "acceptable to take an unnecessary risk that will likely lead to the loss of life when we aren't in combat", but OPSEC should be maintained whether at war or not and the readiness of our key assets should not have been disclosed.

 

 

The only thing I have found thus far about who the captain actually sent the letter to is this passage in a San Francisco Chronicle article dated April 16.

 

"Modly said Crozier had been sloppy by sending the email to 20 to 30 people and allowing it to get outside the chain of command and undermine national security. He cited that as his reason for dismissing Crozier. But according to the (Washington) Post, the email actually went to 10 fellow officers: three admirals and seven captains."

 

I haven't looked at any Washington Post articles yet. They have a pay wall but I think they allow some limited access. Will see if I can find something, unless nspreitler has the sources.

[Zactoman]

 

3 minutes ago, Mstor said:

I haven't looked at any Washington Post articles yet. They have a pay wall but I think they allow some limited access. Will see if I can find something, unless nspreitler has the sources.

 

20 minutes ago, Zactoman said:

Don't believe everything you see on TV.

Or read... Washington Post has been wrong on lots of things. If they cite anonymous or unnamed sources I'd take it with a grain of salt.

 

 

[Mstor]

From the Washington Post article dated April 16. Here is an image of the first two pages of the letter Captain Corzier sent, including the list of recipients. I cannot speak to the provenance of this letter, though I am inclined to trust the Post on this one.  If this is accurate, then I think it speaks for itself. You may judge for yourself.

 

 

P.S. This is evidently a letter that prefaced the four page memo that has been widely circulated in the press. This letter had not been previously published.

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Mstor