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32 minutes ago, Zactoman said:

Keep in mind that most of those were patients on ventilators that hadn't received the newly discovered treatments early enough such as hydroxychloroquine/zinc or Remdesivir. Things are improving.

 

Thanks for the link, but pay-wall...

 

:cheers:

 

There were over 1800 who died yesterday.  I hope things are improving, but we are still seeing over 5% of diagnosed cases die and so far those treatments haven't slowed the deaths at all.  There are certainly a lot more people with it that don't require care, but we don't have enough tests for widespread testing so we have no idea who is a carrier.  

Here is the email with who it went to.   Note that he states the ship could go into combat if needed.  

 

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Edited by nspreitler
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11 minutes ago, nspreitler said:

Here is the email with who it went to.   Note that he states the ship could go into combat if needed.

 

Ha, beat you by two minutes (first two pages only though). :thumbsup:

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4 minutes ago, Mstor said:

 

Ha, beat you by two minutes (first two pages only though). :thumbsup:

 

Yeah, and with that I don't see how anyone can say Captain Crozier did anything wrong.   We can all see who it went to, and now know that Modly lied about it.   If Crozier isn't reinstated it will be a travesty.   

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8 hours ago, GW8345 said:

Right now my state has 12k cases, that is 0.2% of the population and our governor has people hiding in their houses in fear of some invisible boogeyman. While an area of my state does have a high number of cases my county has 0.08% of the population yet I can't go get a freaking hair cut, wash my truck or go to church because some idiot thinks those service are "non-essential", but I can go get all the beer I can drink!

 

For the country, we have put 22 million people out of a job, ruined countless lives and small businesses, and for what? <...>

 

Name them! Ending the shutdown prematurely means people will die. People have names. Name them! State the names of people you know whose death you'd be okay with if their death meant the shutdown could end.

Say "I'm okay with the death of *insert-name-here* if that means I can get my hair cut again".

Say "I'm okay with the death of *insert-name-here* if that means I can wash my truck again".

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1 hour ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

Name them! Ending the shutdown prematurely means people will die. People have names. Name them! State the names of people you know whose death you'd be okay with if their death meant the shutdown could end.

Say "I'm okay with the death of *insert-name-here* if that means I can get my hair cut again".

Say "I'm okay with the death of *insert-name-here* if that means I can wash my truck again".


People will die no matter what.  Unless the plan is to keep every single person on this planet quarantined until a 100% effective vaccine has been found, AND every person on earth has received the vaccine, someone will die of the disease no matter when the shutdown ends.

 

What is your criteria for ending the shutdown?  Tell us.

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I can’t believe I have to say this, but here goes.

 

NONE OF US WERE THERE.

 

No one on this forum knows the absolute facts about this case because we weren’t there. We weren’t on the ship, we aren’t Commanders or Admirals in the US Navy and we weren’t sent the infamous letter.  Now, all we have to go on is what we read in the media. I’ve read a lot about this, and none of it comes from CNN or Fox. What I have discerned from multiple sources is the following timeline:

 

  • The Roosevelt was at sea when sailors started getting sick and testing positive for the virus on 3/24.  The cases presented approx. two weeks after leaving the port call in Da Nang.  Two weeks is the incubation period for the virus.
  • As the number of cases onboard rapidly increased the Roosevelt was ordered to Guam.  All on board were tested and the ~100 worst cases were airlifted to medical facilities on shore on 3/27.
  •  Crozier went to his superior, RAmd Baker, about moving all of the crew to shore because the close-packed quarters on the ship were extremely conducive to further spreading of the virus. Crozier was overruled by Baker, who considered the idea “impractical”.
  • For reasons ONLY Crozier knows for a fact, he wrote the 4 page memo on 3/30 and sent it to ten officers. According to Wikipedia, those ten people were three Admirals: Baker (his immediate superior), Adm Aquilino (Pacific Fleet Cmdr) and Vice Adm Miller (Pacific Fleet Naval Forces Cmdr); seven Captains (five of those on the Roosevelt) and two executive assistants to the aforementioned Admirals. Vice Adm Merz, who was in Crozier’s chain of command, was not copied on the memo, nor was Under SecNav (and Acting SecNav) Modly.
  • On 3/31 the memo was leaked to and published by the San Francisco Chronicle. I don’t know who leaked it but the odds are precisely 10:1 it was not Crozier.
  • On 4/1 the Navy ordered the majority of the ships crew evacuated with a skeleton crew remaining on board.
  • On 4/2 Modly relieved Crozier of his command, without conducting the standard investigation.  This move was widely criticized by many in the Navy brass, including Chief of Naval Operations Adm Gilday.
  • On 4/6 Modly flew from Washington to Guam to deliver his infamous speech to the crew of the Roosevelt.  Estimates of the costs for Modly and his staff to fly to/from Guam and spend 35 minutes aboard the Roosevelt were estimated to be in excess of $243,000.
  • On 4/7 Modly resigned.
  • Currently Crozier’s case is being reviewed by the Navy, and CNO Adm Gilday is expected to render a decision based on the investigation’s findings this week. Gilday has stated he is “not ruling out reinstatement”.

 

All of the above is a matter of public record, not my opinion or interpretation of main stream media.

 

Some background on Modly and what may have influenced his decision, again based on public records:

 

  • While some media has labeled Modly a “civilian”, he is in fact a Naval Academy graduate (1983) and a Navy veteran, with seven years as a Naval Officer and a helo pilot.
  • Modly was nominated by our current POTUS as Under Secretary of the Navy, and the nomination confirmed by the Senate, in 2017. Modly served under SecNav Spencer, who was also appointed by POTUS in 2017.
  • In 2019 Spencer was tapped as Acting Secretary of Defense. Modly then assumed the role of Acting SecNav.  Spencer continued his position of SecNav while serving as Acting SecDef.
  • While serving as Acting SecDef, Spencer was fired by SecDef Esper for bypassing the chain of command (Esper) and going directly to POTUS regarding the case of Navy SEAL Eddie Gallagher.
  • With Spencer’s removal Modly became Acting SecNav.
  • Regarding the removal of Crozier, Modly publicly stated he acted to prevent a repetition of the Gallagher/Spencer/POTUS incident and “I put myself in the President’s shoes. I considered how the President felt he needed to get involved in Navy Decisions. I didn’t want that to happen again.” In doing so he skipped the standard Navy review of the facts before removing Crozier.

.

 

Edited by habu2
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I am amazed and disheartened at the voices and actions of those who dismiss and incorrectly attribute the work of the scientific and medical professionals.  Their arrogance is born from ignorance. This is not a political statement, it is a societal one.

 

I work in the health care field, I see the effect of this virus on people first hand.   No, I am not a doctor, I work in the field of hemotology (blood).  My background is in engineering, physics and math.  I am apolitical – that is to say I disdain both parties pretty much the same. Due to my age and underlying health conditions I am considered a high risk for infection, yet I go to work every day so the rest of you can stay well.  You’re welcome.

 

Some people have decried “studies” and “models” as the work of “scientists”. Nothing could be further from the truth. These studies and models are developed and published by statisticians, not scientists. Statisticians and modelers work from public data and assumptions based on that data.  A “model” isn’t just released once and intended to stand there as a “fact” for eternity. The data used in these models is changing daily, hourly.  The models are then modified accordingly to reflect the reality of the data.

 

Scientists aren’t the ones doing the models. Scientists are the ones out there working on a cure to save lives. Scientists are the ones out there designing better ventilators to save lives. To label a statistical study as the work of scientists is ignorance.

 

What these evolving statistical studies do is help society (and, hopefully, government) to forecast and prepare their respective responses.  The one thing everyone seems focused on - and misinterpreting – is the “flattening of the curve”.  This curve tracks recorded infections and recorded deaths. The term “flat” does not mean the number of cases is not increasing, it means the number of cases is increasing at a linear rate (vs exponential) and, if the current methods of prevention continue (meaning staying at home and closing non-essential businesses) we can expect two things: one the curve has stopped growing exponentially and, two, after the incubation period, that linear growth of cases can be expected to decrease until what is called an inflection point and the curve actually starts to decrease.  That’s when society should expect things to start returning to normal, but not "instantly".

 

Understand another thing about the curve: it only “flattens” to a zero growth rate AFTER the peak and BEFORE the curve indicates a downward trend. That means that, at it’s peak, things are worst AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE THAT BAD until the curve actually indicates a lower rate of cases. Think "area under the curve" or, mathematically, the integral of the range in question.  A peak doesn’t mean it’s over, it doesn’t mean we are past the worst. It means we are at, and will continue to be at the worst until the slope of the curve starts to go negative.  Even at that point, the number of new cases is only slightly less than THE WORST.  It’s not like the number of cases will drop sharply, in fact it means there could be as many if not more deaths AFTER the peak as there were leading up to the peak.  In other words, if “today” was the peak (at over 162,000 dead worldwide) it is not unrealistic to expect another 162,000 deaths as the curve trends downward (think Bell Curve).  Past the peak doesn’t mean it’s over, it just means things aren’t getting worse.

 

Another thing about these data based models – they are only as good – or as bad – as the data they are based on.  Many have commented on under-reporting, whether for “political” reasons or for inconsistent data collection and reporting methods.  Those number of reported cases are also based on testing – you can’t count what (or whom) you haven’t tested.  We currently don’t have the resources or infrastructure to test everyone.  Plus, just because you might test virus free today doesn’t mean you won’t catch it tomorrow. If we can’t test everyone we sure can’t test everyone every two weeks for the next two years until a cure is developed and fielded.  Additionally, if someone dies, presumably of COVID, but hasn’t been tested positive for the virus, hospitals and doctors are not going to “waste” an already scarce test kit on a corpse. That means that, technically, even if the patient is presumed to have died of COVID the death won’t be reported as such because the test wasn’t performed to confirm it.

 

For those who see stay at home as an inconvenience, Hell Yes it is.  But consider the alternative.  I’d rather be bored at home than dying in a hospital or dead in a box. So go ahead, go out, go party on the beach, go hug your kids and friends and kiss your grandmother.  And sleep well at night knowing you’ve done your part to keep that curve growth exponential and make the stay at home guidelines last even longer.

 

.

 

Edited by habu2
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12 hours ago, GW8345 said:

Naw, that stuff is a little bit too early for my blood, I like the mid 70's onward stuff. I'm more into Motley Crue, Van Halen, The Call, WASP, Whitesnake, Dio and Queen.

 

The Call! I thought I was the only one on here that even knew of them. What an underrated band that was. Some of my favorite songs are Let the Day Begin, Into the Woods, and I Still Believe.

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19 minutes ago, habu2 said:

 

  • As the number of cases onboard rapidly increased the Roosevelt was ordered to Guam.  All on board were tested and the ~100 worst cases were airlifted to medical facilities on shore on 3/27.

 

 

  • While some media has labeled Modly a “civilian”, he is in fact a Naval Academy graduate (1983) and a Navy veteran, with seven years as a Naval Officer and a helo pilot.

.

 

 

A couple corrections, they weren't all tested initially.  They didn't finish testing until a day or two ago. 

 

Modly is a civilian.  That he served previously doesn't mean he is somehow not a civilian now.   Unfortunately he didn't learn anything from his service and the only thing he has demonstrated is he is a horrible human with no honor or integrity.     

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I'm torn on this, and have been since the beginning. Covid-19 is a nasty, nasty virus. It causes horrible illness. I have a friend who almost died of it, and he was fit and healthy. With that said, the numbers, while bad, aren't near as bad as other illnesses have been, such as H1N1. I haven't looked at the most recent numbers, but I don't think the 3 million mark has been hit for Covid-19. I will give you that the mortality rate of H1N1 wasn't near as bad as Covid-19 (0.02% vs. 2-3%), but it was estimated that over 1.4 billion people got H1N1 and 574,000 people died, depending on what sources you look at. I'm thankful that Covid-19 isn't something like MERS, which has a 25-35% mortality rate. The problem with Covid-19 is that it is easily spread, where other deadlier viruses are more limited in their spread. The Spanish flu of 1918 caused 50 million deaths worldwide. Because of a better understanding of viruses, we've been able to curtail numbers like that. I completely understand the steps that have been taken to limit the spread of this disease. I'm all for continuing them for a few more weeks. However, at some point, a decision needs to be made. If we continue to isolate for months and months and months, there will be no economy/country worth coming back to. New norms should be put into place, such as requiring masks and gloves out in public. But at some point in the near future, we MUST get the economy moving again and get people to work. It will probably mean an uptick in numbers, but what are the other options until a vaccine is produced, if ever? That is the question that must be struggled with, whatever side of the argument you are on. 

Edited by Darren Roberts
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14 minutes ago, nspreitler said:

A couple corrections, they weren't all tested initially.  They didn't finish testing until a day or two ago. 

 

Modly is a civilian.  That he served previously doesn't mean he is somehow not a civilian now.   Unfortunately he didn't learn anything from his service and the only thing he has demonstrated is he is a horrible human with no honor or integrity.     

 

I stand corrected, I should have said "ordered to be tested". Obviously that takes some time.

 

I included the civilian/veteran part because some MSM have painted Modly as a "mere civilian" without mentioning his military record.  He is technically a civilian AND a military veteran, just as many other ARC members are.  I thank them all for their service.

 

.

 

Edited by habu2
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3 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

I'm torn on this, and have been since the beginning. Covid-19 is a nasty, nasty virus. It causes horrible illness. I have a friend who almost died of it, and he was fit and healthy. With that said, the numbers, while bad, aren't near as bad as other illnesses have been. H1N1 infected 375 million people world-wide. I haven't looked at the most recent numbers, but I don't think the 3 million mark has been hit. I will give you that the mortality rate of H1N1 wasn't near as bad as Covid-19 (0.02% vs. 2-3%), but it was estimated that over 1.4 billion people got H1N1 and 574,000 people died, depending on what sources you look at. I'm thankful that Covid-19 isn't something like MERS, which has a 25-35% mortality rate. The problem with Covid-19 is that it is easily spread, where other deadlier viruses are more limited in their spread. The Spanish flu of 1918 caused 50 million deaths worldwide. Because of a better understanding of viruses, we've been able to curtail numbers like that. I completely understand the steps that have been taken to limit the spread of this disease. I'm all for continuing them for a few more weeks. However, at some point, a decision needs to be made. If we continue to isolate for months and months and months, there will be no economy/country worth coming back to. New norms should be put into place, such as requiring masks and gloves out in public. But at some point in the near future, we MUST get the economy moving again and get people to work. It will probably mean an uptick in numbers, but what are the other options until a vaccine is produced, if ever? That is the question that must be struggled with, whatever side of the argument you are on. 

 

The numbers aren't as bad because we have done something, but we aren't even close to this being over.  It's growing still and it's starting to hit the most vulnerable countries like India, Indonesia, Brazil, and others that have widespread poverty with people living on top of each other.  It's going to devastate those areas quickly.    

 

We do have to reopen, but carefully.  We won't be going back to sit down restaurants, movie theaters, taking cruises, going to Disneyworld or things like that for a long time.  

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6 minutes ago, habu2 said:

 

I stand corrected, I should have said "ordered to be tested". Obviously that takes some time.

 

I included the civilian/veteran part because some MSM have painted Modly as a "mere civilian" without mentioning his military record.  He is technically a civilian AND a military veteran, just as many other ARC members are.  I thank them all for their service.

 

.

 

It does take time,  but it shouldn't.  That's one of the biggest problems, is the lack of testing.  We don't know who has it because we can't get tested unless we are already symptomatic.  So without lock downs it just spreads, because despite promises from the government there are not tests available.    

 

It's even more embarrassing that Modly did serve, and the only silver lining is that he didn't stay long.  His rant towards the crew of TR makes me wonder how he even made it through Annapolis.  I've listened to his speech a few times, and as someone who has commanded I get furious hearing his complete disregard for people's lives.  

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wrt testing - to date most of the testing we hear about are the "swabs" where you get a cotton-tipped stick shoved up your nasal cavity to collect mucus.  That mucus is then tested for presence of the virus. Previously that kind of a test (for any virus) could take several days, even weeks, to get results back.  Recently a company announced a test that would confirm the virus in 5 minutes, and absence of a virus in 15 minutes.  That's better, and I applaud their work in bringing this test to market rapidly, but understand two things: one, that test runs serially on a machine in a clinical chemistry lab, not at a drive-thru testing site. Swabs are collected, then sent to a lab, then tested one at a time. That's a max of four tests per hour, per machine.  An individual lab is also not likely to have a dozen or so of these machines, they might have one or maybe two machines per lab. The results are then sent back to the testers/tested. That obviously still takes a day or three at best.  That's better, but not the "5 minute result" the media has been hyping.  (I sure do miss Paul Harvey and his "rest of the story" reporting)

 

The second thing about a swab test is that it can't test for the presence of antibodies which would show a resistance to (re)infection. For that you have to have a blood test.  That means drawing blood and sending it to the lab for processing and reporting, just as is done with the swab tests. Serology (blood) tests for COVID-19 are in testing now, primarily in New York, New Orleans and other hot spots around the world. As efficacy is verified production will ramp up and testing will expand. A serology based test is important to ending stay at home and business closures as it is a method to show those individuals are now "safe" to re-enter public settings and interact with others.  Individuals with the antibodies are very very unlikely to get reinfected and, more importantly, can't infect others.  The more people that test positive for antibodies the closer we are to ending this crisis and returning to normal. 

 

The other important fact about serology testing is that those 'survivors' found to have the COVID-19 antibodies can (and should) donate blood for research in developing a cure.  One of the things that takes so long about developing a cure (aside from extensive testing and FDA approval) is finding samples of the antibody for scientists to use to guide their research and development of a vaccine.  I was at a hospital on Friday and the lab director told me they were about to treat their most critical COVID patient with the first round of transfusions with COVID antibody-positive blood to combat the infection.  This is cutting edge, one of the first such treatments being done in the country.  I'll be back at that hospital on Tuesday and hope to learn then if it worked for this patient.  Please understand this and, when the serology tests are more widely available, get tested and donate blood.  That will be a Big Step in defeating this epidemic.

 

.

 

Edited by habu2
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Excellent info Habu2. Thanks. I knew that it was statisticians that worked on modeling data but failed to make that clear in earlier statements. Thanks for correcting me.  Your knowledge of these topics has shined a light on what is going on.

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4 hours ago, Dave Williams said:


People will die no matter what.  Unless the plan is to keep every single person on this planet quarantined until a 100% effective vaccine has been found, AND every person on earth has received the vaccine, someone will die of the disease no matter when the shutdown ends.

 

What is your criteria for ending the shutdown?  Tell us.

 

Some will die no matter what, true. Some can be saved if the health care system isn't overwhelmed. If you end the shutdown prematurely, more people will die. People that otherwise wouldn't have died. That means people would die because other people couldn't wait.

What's more, if the hospitals are full of Covid-19 patients, people needing treatment for other diseases/accidents will die because there is no capacity left to treat them.

 

Asking for the end of the shutdown prematurely has consequences. Grave consequences. People will die. People with names. People with relatives. People with friends. So if your asking for a premature end of the shutdown, face the consequences and name the people you're sentencing to an early death.

So, name them. Name a friend or relative you'd be okay with dying if that meant ending the shutown now. Say "I, Dave Williams, am okay with my Dad dying prematurely if that means I can go have my hair cut."

 

My criteria for ending the shutdown are irrelevant. Ask the scientists. And if you get conflicting answers, ask more scientists and go from there. Chances are the 97% of scientists agreeing on X are right, not the 2% saying X may not happen quite that way or the 1% saying X would actually be good for you.

 

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I don't know about the rest of you but I'm becoming less concerned about the virus and more concerned about the economy.  Some of you as full time military or retirees don't have to worry as this as much as others do.   I'm still working full time (as is my wife) and together we do pretty well.   That being said, my company has seen a large drop in business and have already started some significant RIF's. I've made the cut so far but if things don't start picking up within a month or so, I'm not optimistic about my future.  

 

I get that we need to be doing what we are currently doing.  However, there has to be an end game and it has to get implemented, (at least partially) pretty damned soon.  Otherwise, the cure may end up being worse than the disease, or to use a saying from the Vietnam War - in order to save the village, we had to destroy it.

 

Plus, I know how badly GW needs to get that haircut and take his RAV4 to the car wash. 

 

On a side note, regarding the TR saga - WSJ had a report last week that stated the virus didn't get onto the ship during it's port call in Vietnam, it came aboard with some members of the air wing.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, 11bee said:

Plus, I know how badly GW needs to get that haircut and take his RAV4 to the car wash. 

 

Hey now, I have a RAV4. Besides, that's what a water hose and a bucket is for.

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4 minutes ago, 11bee said:

 

Are RAV4's even allowed in TX???   

 

Kidding Whiskey.....

 

I'll have you know! Actually I'm probably going to get another one here soon, my current ride is 19 years old and almost 300,000 miles. Next one I get will be AWD and will end up looking something like this.

 

2ee4fd612084f0b2aaf83198db84f039.jpg

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4 minutes ago, 11bee said:

I don't know about the rest of you but I'm becoming less concerned about the virus and more concerned about the economy.  Some of you as full time military or retirees don't have to worry as this as much as others do.   I'm still working full time (as is my wife) and together we do pretty well.   That being said, my company has seen a large drop in business and have already started some significant RIF's. I've made the cut so far but if things don't start picking up within a month or so, I'm not optimistic about my future.  

 

I get that we need to be doing what we are currently doing.  However, there has to be an end game and it has to get implemented, (at least partially) pretty damned soon.  Otherwise, the cure may end up being worse than the disease, or to use a saying from the Vietnam War - in order to save the village, we had to destroy it.

 

Plus, I know how badly GW needs to get that haircut and take his RAV4 to the car wash. 

 

On a side note, regarding the TR saga - WSJ had a report last week that stated the virus didn't get onto the ship during it's port call in Vietnam, it came aboard with some members of the air wing.  

 

 

The theory about the air wing makes sense, the first cases didn't appear until 24 March, 15 days after the port call and there are no cases on the Bunker Hill which made the same port call in Da Nang.   There were two British citizens staying at the same hotel as 30 members of the TRs crew, and those two later tested positive.  However none of the 30 sailors who stayed at the same hotel ended up positive.  

 

With the economy I think we need to be smart about it, businesses should open when possible but some aren't coming back for a long time.   Movies, theme parks, cruises, concerts, and anything that attracts a large crowd doesn't need to happen anytime soon.  

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13 minutes ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

Some will die no matter what, true. Some can be saved if the health care system isn't overwhelmed. If you end the shutdown prematurely, more people will die. People that otherwise wouldn't have died. That means people would die because other people couldn't wait.

What's more, if the hospitals are full of Covid-19 patients, people needing treatment for other diseases/accidents will die because there is no capacity left to treat them.

 

Asking for the end of the shutdown prematurely has consequences. Grave consequences. People will die. People with names. People with relatives. People with friends. So if your asking for a premature end of the shutdown, face the consequences and name the people you're sentencing to an early death.

So, name them. Name a friend or relative you'd be okay with dying if that meant ending the shutown now. Say "I, Dave Williams, am okay with my Dad dying prematurely if that means I can go have my hair cut."

 

My criteria for ending the shutdown are irrelevant. Ask the scientists. And if you get conflicting answers, ask more scientists and go from there. Chances are the 97% of scientists agreeing on X are right, not the 2% saying X may not happen quite that way or the 1% saying X would actually be good for you.

 


Spare me the histrionics of “I (insert name) would be OK if (insert another name) died so I can get a haircut”.  That’s so ridiculously over the top that doesn’t even deserve a reply.  I guarantee that you aren’t going to get anywhere close to 97% of the scientists agreeing on this, not to mention the fact that there are consequences of keeping this going (economic and societal) that need to be taken into account also.  Tell you what, you do you there between Hamburg and the Fulda Gap, and the rest of us do what we do.

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13 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

I don't know if I've had the virus. There is very little testing going on. I have no idea how I would get tested except maybe to catch it and get real sick.

 

Can you provide citations for some of your claims, like that the number of cases is 85 times more than what is being reported?  Where are you getting your information?

 

Who would you have us look to for advice about this pandemic if not scientists and medical experts? Politicians? Scientists are not perfect and need to revise their predictions based on new data. That's how science works. And no, I don't remember them saying we would lose 2 million people. Maybe they have revised their predictions based on the fact that many states are enforcing the social distancing rules.

 

Regarding the face mask recommendations, from the New York Times Coronavirus FAQ; "The C.D.C. has recommended that all Americans wear cloth masks if they go out in public. This is a shift in federal guidance reflecting new concerns that the coronavirus is being spread by infected people who have no symptoms. Until now, the C.D.C., like the W.H.O., has advised that ordinary people don’t need to wear masks unless they are sick and coughing. Part of the reason was to preserve medical-grade masks for health care workers who desperately need them at a time when they are in continuously short supply. Masks don’t replace hand washing and social distancing."

 

Finally, I'll bite, how many genders do you think there are?

https://www.sacbee.com/news/coronavirus/article242105916.html

As for genders - 2 period.

 

12 hours ago, SBARC said:

 

Currently the Covid-19 numbers in the 5 main english speaking countries.   https://wuflu.live/

USA  327 million  39,022 dead

UK  66 million  15,506 dead

Canada 38 million  1,521 dead

Australia  25 million    70 dead

New Zealand   5 million  12 dead

 

Sorry guys...but the USA and UK are doing horribly. 

 

I won't believe the number of cases in the US as being factual, Dr Brix admitted the other day that the US is inflating it's numbers.

 

11 hours ago, nspreitler said:

My wife and my kids have access to all that too,  they are civilians just like you.   

 

What is your opinion of Captain Crozier now that we all know his letter was sent to a few people in the chain of command.   Are you still going to use the ridiculous OPSEC argument to say the Captain was wrong and the former acting SECNAV was right?   

 

When it comes to making decisions Colin Powell said it best 

"The commander in the field is always right and the rear echelon is wrong, unless proved otherwise."     

 

Now we know with certainty the commander was right, and the rear echelon acting SECNAV was very wrong.    

No, your wife and kids are dependents.

 

And yes, I'm still going to use that "ridiculous OPSEC argument" because it's factual, whether you agree with it or not.

 

11 hours ago, nspreitler said:

 I am glad we don't have people like you in charge.  

And I'm glad I never had to serve along side someone like you, you sound like a REMF.

6 hours ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

Name them! Ending the shutdown prematurely means people will die. People have names. Name them! State the names of people you know whose death you'd be okay with if their death meant the shutdown could end.

Say "I'm okay with the death of *insert-name-here* if that means I can get my hair cut again".

Say "I'm okay with the death of *insert-name-here* if that means I can wash my truck again".

How about you start naming business owners who you are okay with losing everything they worked so hard for, start naming the people who's lives are ruined because some gov't official deemed their business is "non-essential" and thus had to let go all of their employees, start naming the businesses who will never recover from this, start naming the people who are going to wind up losing everything they worked the whole lives for. And, start naming the generation who is going to have to pay the bill for the money the gov't is spending trying to keep the unemployment rate from skyrocketing.

2 hours ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

The Call! I thought I was the only one on here that even knew of them. What an underrated band that was. Some of my favorite songs are Let the Day Begin, Into the Woods, and I Still Believe.

Yep, love the call, some of my favorite songs are Let the Day Begin, I Still Believe, The Walls Came Down and I Don't Wanna.

12 minutes ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

Some will die no matter what, true. Some can be saved if the health care system isn't overwhelmed. If you end the shutdown prematurely, more people will die. People that otherwise wouldn't have died. That means people would die because other people couldn't wait.

What's more, if the hospitals are full of Covid-19 patients, people needing treatment for other diseases/accidents will die because there is no capacity left to treat them.

 

Asking for the end of the shutdown prematurely has consequences. Grave consequences. People will die. People with names. People with relatives. People with friends. So if your asking for a premature end of the shutdown, face the consequences and name the people you're sentencing to an early death.

So, name them. Name a friend or relative you'd be okay with dying if that meant ending the shutown now. Say "I, Dave Williams, am okay with my Dad dying prematurely if that means I can go have my hair cut."

 

My criteria for ending the shutdown are irrelevant. Ask the scientists. And if you get conflicting answers, ask more scientists and go from there. Chances are the 97% of scientists agreeing on X are right, not the 2% saying X may not happen quite that way or the 1% saying X would actually be good for you.

 

Again, name the people who you are okay with ruining their lives, making them lose everything they've worked for, putting them on the street, making them stand in food lines, those people have names also.

 

For every (so called) death from the Chinese Virus 550 American's have lost their job, most with families they can no longer support.

 

Oh, and as far as those "scientists", they are the same one's who said back in the 80's that about 75-80% of the American population would be infected with AIDS by the end of the (80's) decade.

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