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4 hours ago, nspreitler said:

There are a lot of Americans who don't trust anything, including science and many who won't use common sense because they think that wearing a mask is somehow infringing on their rights.

OR it could be that there is scientific data of differing view points (i.e. herd immunity vs isolation) and both sides will want to skew their view point in order to capitalize on the data showing what they WANT to happen. Not saying one is right over the other or one side is trying to skew facts more than the other. Both sides will try to get the end results they want. But just because some are calling for opening things up doesn't mean they are not trusting science. They are possibly just listening to scientific views that are different from your "common sense". Personally, I think it's going to be a much worse situation for a much longer time BECAUSE we went to hard press isolation. So now there are very very few people who have built up any kind of natural immunity to this thing. Next time it comes around it's not going to be any better. So don't think because you listen to one set of scientist and some listen to another set that you're so much more sensible than they are. 

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1 hour ago, niart17 said:

OR it could be that there is scientific data of differing view points

 

There are people that claim scientific justification for just about anything, flat earth, earth the center of the solar system, no global warming, you name it. 

 

Real science does not skew facts to get the results they want. If they are, that is NOT science. Science forms a hypothesis, then collects data and performs tests to see if the hypothesis is valid. If not, back to the drawing board, revise hypothesis, start over. This is why people don't understand theories. The theory of evolution, the theory of gravity. They say because it is a theory, it can be ignored, especially when it comes to the theory of evolution of species. Theories are our best understanding of how phenomenon work. You can't ignore gravity or say it doesn't exist just because it is a "theory". Same applies to evolution. This is science.

 

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Edited by Mstor
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3 hours ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

My wife and I just talked about this on our walk last night. If we want to get businesses back up and running, then masks should be required. It used to be No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service. You could add masks to that list. I know the devil is in the details. Should the government have to supply the masks to everyone? What is considered a mask? I do see an opportunity for someone who entrepreneurial. Designer masks might be the next big thing!

 

In regards to media, that's the beauty of America. We have the freedom to skew anything we want. You have some news outlets downplaying the threat while other news outlets are making it seem like it's worse than Ebola and that if you look at someone wrong, you'll get it and be dead. Sensationalism is the force that drives the news cycle. Oh for the days of Walter Cronkite!


Honestly, from an educated scientific perspective, from what I have witnessed, trust any of the major players except FOX.

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30 minutes ago, Mstor said:

 

There are people that claim scientific justification for just about anything, flat earth, earth the center of the solar system, no global warming, you name it. 

 

Real science does not skew facts to get the results they want. If they are, that is NOT science. Science forms a hypothesis, then collects data and performs tests to see if the hypothesis is valid. If not, back to the drawing board, revise hypothesis, start over. This is why people don't understand theories. The theory of evolution, the theory of gravity. They say because it is a theory, it can be ignored, especially when it comes to the theory of evolution of species. Theories are our best understanding of how phenomenon work. You can't ignore gravity or say it doesn't exist just because it is a "theory". Same applies to evolution. This is science.

 

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Right, so because some scientist disagree with other scientist and you choose to think one group is right that makes the other group wrong? I don't think YOU understand science if that's what you're saying. It's not like herd immunity is some crack-pot theory thought up by mad scientists. There are a lot of infectious disease specialists saying exactly the same thing. If you want to get people immune from a disease, you have to have the populous build up immunity. This isn't like I'm saying something non-scientific. But it doesn't jive with what you've heard soo....it's anti-intellectualism? Too funny.

 

But thanks for your entirely demeaning attempt to sound like you're smarter than I am. 

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16 minutes ago, Scooby said:


Honestly, from an educated scientific perspective, from what I have witnessed, trust any of the major players except FOX.

 

Huff Post and CNN are a bit over the top. I chuckle at their bold headlines. I like to read everything and come to an educated decision. The truth usually lies somewhere in between the extremes.

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1 hour ago, niart17 said:

OR it could be that there is scientific data of differing view points (i.e. herd immunity vs isolation) and both sides will want to skew their view point in order to capitalize on the data showing what they WANT to happen. Not saying one is right over the other or one side is trying to skew facts more than the other. Both sides will try to get the end results they want. But just because some are calling for opening things up doesn't mean they are not trusting science. They are possibly just listening to scientific views that are different from your "common sense". Personally, I think it's going to be a much worse situation for a much longer time BECAUSE we went to hard press isolation. So now there are very very few people who have built up any kind of natural immunity to this thing. Next time it comes around it's not going to be any better. So don't think because you listen to one set of scientist and some listen to another set that you're so much more sensible than they are. 

 

Have you seen the people protesting?  Most aren't wearing masks, they are huddled together in large groups because they have been told by certain parts of the media that this is nothing more than the flu and it's all a big hoax.   The same media is telling them that the number of deaths is inflated, that X drug is a cure, that it will go away when it gets warmer, and a lot more that  is just false.   Now we have states like Georgia and South Carolina about to reopen restaurants, movies, etc, but what they do has ramifications for all of us.   I live on the I-95 corridor less than 100 miles from South Carolina, what they do will likely impact my area too.   

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32 minutes ago, Mstor said:

 

There are people that claim scientific justification for just about anything, flat earth, earth the center of the solar system, no global warming, you name it. 

 

Real science does not skew facts to get the results they want. If they are, that is NOT science. Science forms a hypothesis, then collects data and performs tests to see if the hypothesis is valid. If not, back to the drawing board, revise hypothesis, start over. This is why people don't understand theories. The theory of evolution, the theory of gravity. They say because it is a theory, it can be ignored, especially when it comes to the theory of evolution of species. Theories are our best understanding of how phenomenon work. You can't ignore gravity or say it doesn't exist just because it is a "theory". Same applies to evolution. This is science.

 

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I don't want to go too far into the weeds, but when talking about evolution, you have to define exactly what you're talking about. There's micro evolution and then there's macro evolution. I have no problem with micro evolution. It's the macro evolution that has large holes in it. For one, you can't replicate the evolutionary process. It's more of an historical science. There are fossils and such, but all you can really do is take an educated guess at what occurred. It would be like us looking at a picture of something completely unfamiliar, and then each of us would use what knowledge we had to try and figure out what was happening in the picture. There are many, many very intelligent people who view the macro evolutionary theory/process as flawed. We're talking on a microbiologicial level where they demonstrate that the current theories could not possibly have happened. Does this make them anti-science? The bottom line is this. No one really knows what happened for life to get started on Earth, and it really doesn't matter. The whole evolution argument/discussion is a red herring when it comes to science. It's just not necessary. 

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7 minutes ago, niart17 said:

Right, so because some scientist disagree with other scientist and you choose to think one group is right that makes the other group wrong? I don't think YOU understand science if that's what you're saying. It's not like herd immunity is some crack-pot theory thought up by mad scientists. There are a lot of infectious disease specialists saying exactly the same thing. If you want to get people immune from a disease, you have to have the populous build up immunity. This isn't like I'm saying something non-scientific. But it doesn't jive with what you've heard soo....it's anti-intellectualism? Too funny.

 

But thanks for your entirely demeaning attempt to sound like you're smarter than I am. 

You won't find many scientists that are saying we should expose everyone and build herd immunity.  Herd immunity can come from a vaccine, but to have herd immunity you need at least 60% up to 90% of the population immune, but with COVID killing an estimated 1% to get to the minimum for herd immunity about 2 million people in the US die.  That also isn't certain to work since people have recovered and then tested positive again.  We don't know how long immunity lasts, some natural immunity doesn't last. 

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32 minutes ago, Scooby said:


Honestly, from an educated scientific perspective, from what I have witnessed, trust any of the major players except FOX.

I agree, the problem is the millions of people who won't listen to anything but Fox.  Sadly the Fox viewers tend to be older and the ones most likely to die from COVID, and they are being told it is nothing. 

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1 hour ago, nspreitler said:

You won't find many scientists that are saying we should expose everyone and build herd immunity.  Herd immunity can come from a vaccine, but to have herd immunity you need at least 60% up to 90% of the population immune, but with COVID killing an estimated 1% to get to the minimum for herd immunity about 2 million people in the US die.  That also isn't certain to work since people have recovered and then tested positive again.  We don't know how long immunity lasts, some natural immunity doesn't last. 

No, what most of the herd immunity supporting scientists are saying is that you should have had about a 2 week lock down to stave off the rapid spread. Then following that you release the younger people with no underlying health issues for another period of time and allow them to become less likely host. Those will be less likely to have severe reaction to whatever virus is still on the move and much less likely to spread it further after they've contracted it and recovered. You do that for about a month and then you slowly voluntarily allow the other back in with precautions, the same precautions they take whenever they are out during any other high risk time. 

 

But what you're suggesting is that until we find a "cure", which we may NEVER find, then every time this rears it's head you have go back into complete lock down. All that's going to do is insure that more people die over a longer period of time and destroy more lives in the process. Not all of the people that are calling for opening up are crack-pot conspiracy theorists, despite what your news sources are telling you. Are there the crazies out there? Of course. But that's on both sides. Crazy people are crazy regardless of what they believe.

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1 hour ago, nspreitler said:

You won't find many scientists that are saying we should expose everyone and build herd immunity.  Herd immunity can come from a vaccine, but to have herd immunity you need at least 60% up to 90% of the population immune, but with COVID killing an estimated 1% to get to the minimum for herd immunity about 2 million people in the US die.  That also isn't certain to work since people have recovered and then tested positive again.  We don't know how long immunity lasts, some natural immunity doesn't last. 


Dead on, Herd Immunity is a risky proposition.

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1 hour ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

Huff Post and CNN are a bit over the top. I chuckle at their bold headlines. I like to read everything and come to an educated decision. The truth usually lies somewhere in between the extremes.

Exactly, I was so mad the other week after talking to my brother. He thinks Fox News needs to Be removed and is comparing it to the third reich. He said that was how nazism started. Like CNN and MSDNC are not one sided give me break. Also pay attention to what and who the Chinese govt influences (ie. media and the NBA etc.) If you think the CCP is looking out for others in the world I have ocean front property to sell you in Arizona.

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5 minutes ago, Scooby said:


Dead on, Herd Immunity is a risky proposition.

And shutting down an entire country for an extended period of time isn't?

 

Just as a small case sample. The area I live in is a small community with probably about 75% of the adult workers working what's deemed "essential". These people are going to work, exercising what precautions they can, I doubt many wear mask but are probably working in smaller shifts with hand washing efforts etc... 

My town has had 2 cases since this has started and they are fully recovered. There hasn't been a new case here in weeks. So should this entire area remain locked down for as long as it take for New York to become completely safe? What sense does that make? 

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1 hour ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

Huff Post and CNN are a bit over the top. I chuckle at their bold headlines. I like to read everything and come to an educated decision. The truth usually lies somewhere in between the extremes.


I don’t pay any attention to Huff Post, I do listen and watch CNN and based on my medical background their experts give excellent and accurate advice. What I hear on FOX is terrifying and inaccurate. You don’t hear anything on FOX repeated on other networks.

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23 minutes ago, niart17 said:

No, what most of the herd immunity supporting scientists are saying is that you should have had about a 2 week lock down to stave off the rapid spread. Then following that you release the younger people with no underlying health issues for another period of time and allow them to become less likely host. Those will be less likely to have severe reaction to whatever virus is still on the move and much less likely to spread it further after they've contracted it and recovered. You do that for about a month and then you slowly voluntarily allow the other back in with precautions, the same precautions they take whenever they are out during any other high risk time. 

 

But what you're suggesting is that until we find a "cure", which we may NEVER find, then every time this rears it's head you have go back into complete lock down. All that's going to do is insure that more people die over a longer period of time and destroy more lives in the process. Not all of the people that are calling for opening up are crack-pot conspiracy theorists, despite what your news sources are telling you. Are there the crazies out there? Of course. But that's on both sides. Crazy people are crazy regardless of what they believe.

Again you won't find many credible scientists saying that at all.  Herd immunity from a vaccine is possible, but with the mortality rate of this virus a natural herd immunity comes with an unacceptable cost.  Those young people come in contact with older people, plus the number of high risk people in the US is greater than the low risk population.   The top comorbidity with COVID is obesity, and that's 40% of the adults in the US.  Plus we have 50 million over 65.  There aren't enough low risk healthy people in the US to even get to the minimum of 60% to get to herd immunity.  

 

I am not saying a complete lockdown, but the idea that we should promote herd immunity by letting the disease go is not an idea any credible scientist is promoting. 

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2 minutes ago, Scooby said:


I do listen and watch CNN and based on my medical background their experts give excellent and accurate advice.

Such as the advice that this was not going to be anything to worry about and we shouldn't adjust our day to day activities? That excellent and sound advice?:whistle:

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7 minutes ago, niart17 said:

And shutting down an entire country for an extended period of time isn't?

 

Just as a small case sample. The area I live in is a small community with probably about 75% of the adult workers working what's deemed "essential". These people are going to work, exercising what precautions they can, I doubt many wear mask but are probably working in smaller shifts with hand washing efforts etc... 

My town has had 2 cases since this has started and they are fully recovered. There hasn't been a new case here in weeks. So should this entire area remain locked down for as long as it take for New York to become completely safe? What sense does that make? 

 

Look at the Smithfield plant South Dakota for what can happen quickly in a small town.  The stay at home orders will have to be lifted and things will open, but it has to be done wisely.  Georgia is a prime example of how not to do it, they are reopening movie theaters, restaurants, tattoo parlors, barbers, nail salons, etc all at one.   I will be shocked if they don't have a huge resurgence of cases.  

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1 minute ago, nspreitler said:

Again you won't find many credible scientists saying that at all.  Herd immunity from a vaccine is possible, but with the mortality rate of this virus a natural herd immunity comes with an unacceptable cost.  Those young people come in contact with older people, plus the number of high risk people in the US is greater than the low risk population.   The top comorbidity with COVID is obesity, and that's 40% of the adults in the US.  Plus we have 50 million over 65.  There aren't enough low risk healthy people in the US to even get to the minimum of 60% to get to herd immunity.  

 

I am not saying a complete lockdown, but the idea that we should promote herd immunity by letting the disease go is not an idea any credible scientist is promoting. 

So far the numbers don't suggest the mortality rate is anywhere near where they thought it might be. And as more and more people are actually being tested they are finding that the mortality rate is significantly lower they they thought it would be. The places that are indicating a high mortality rate are the places that are only testing the worst case patients because they are limited on the number of tests they have. Of course if you only test people that are high risk and severely symptomatic your mortality rate will appear higher. That's just basic math.

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5 minutes ago, niart17 said:

Such as the advice that this was not going to be anything to worry about and we shouldn't adjust our day to day activities? That excellent and sound advice?:whistle:


Yeah, Hannity did say all of that, he also said the death rate numbers are fake. That it’s just a flu.

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5 minutes ago, Scooby said:


Health risks? No.

Really? So you're saying that shutting down a country, destroying its economy and potentially stopping it's means of supporting itself can't lead to health risk? Perhaps you should look at the general health of the u.s. citizen during the great depression.

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1 minute ago, Scooby said:


Yeah, Hannity did say all of that, he also said the death rate numbers are fake. That it’s just a flu.

Hannity is an idiot. Besides the fact I can't stand the way everything he says sounds like a question. The sound of his voice drives me nuts. Sounds like a CA valley girl.

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1 minute ago, niart17 said:

So far the numbers don't suggest the mortality rate is anywhere near where they thought it might be. And as more and more people are actually being tested they are finding that the mortality rate is significantly lower they they thought it would be. The places that are indicating a high mortality rate are the places that are only testing the worst case patients because they are limited on the number of tests they have. Of course if you only test people that are high risk and severely symptomatic your mortality rate will appear higher. That's just basic math.

Based on just testing the US is just over 5%, but it is certainly a lot lower which is why I said 1%, even at 0.5% we would be looking at 1,000,000 dead to get to 60% exposed with immunity.  

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1 minute ago, niart17 said:

So far the numbers don't suggest the mortality rate is anywhere near where they thought it might be. And as more and more people are actually being tested they are finding that the mortality rate is significantly lower they they thought it would be. The places that are indicating a high mortality rate are the places that are only testing the worst case patients because they are limited on the number of tests they have. Of course if you only test people that are high risk and severely symptomatic your mortality rate will appear higher. That's just basic math.


Hospitals, Emergencies and ICU departments are completely overrun/decimated with covid patients. That doesn’t happen on a normal day due to one type of illness.

 

The number one cause of death in the US is covid.

 

Covid transmits easier than any other illness, therefore that small percentage of deaths you quote are actually larger totals.


Quit downplaying the severity of this pandemic.

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