USS Theodore Roosevelt

[habu2]

1 hour ago, Mstor said:

 

My man. Stevie Ray was awesome and too early taken (as was Hendrix).

Stevie was born at the hospital about a half mile from me, his old home is just a couple of miles away. I really regret never having seen him play live. Musicians and performance venues are among the many really hurting from this crisis, all concert dates have been canceled. 
 

If you like SRV check out a guy named Craig Erickson, you can find some of his stuff on youtube.  Another guy I like is Bob Schneider out of Austin. Muy bueno. 🙂
 

.

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by habu2

[SBARC]

2 hours ago, Mstor said:

What really concerns me is that this may be only the first of many infectious diseases that we will have to deal with in the future. If we start seeing repeats of this level of contagion and death, then I truly fear for western civilization.

 

 

I do feel that since this is the 3 event from China in the past 17 years that there needs to be thought put into restricting China's  ability to spread such viruses.  Perhaps by restricting the ability of citizens of China to travel to other countries.

 

2 hours ago, Mstor said:

The current outbreak has the potential of changing forever how we conduct ourselves in society. I hope I'm wrong, that when this is over we can pick up the pieces and get back to a semblance of normal.

 

There was a much, much worse flu pandemic in 1918 - 1919 and after it was over....we had the Roaring 20's and the flu pandemic quickly went into the history books.  I feel we will move on from this and thankfully the loss of life will not be 50 to 100 million world wide like the pandemic 100 years ago.

[Mstor]

5 hours ago, SBARC said:

There was a much, much worse flu pandemic in 1918 - 1919 and after it was over....we had the Roaring 20's and the flu pandemic quickly went into the history books.  I feel we will move on from this and thankfully the loss of life will not be 50 to 100 million world wide like the pandemic 100 years ago.

 

True, but we all knew so much less about disease and viruses back then. These days, everyone knows about viruses, or at least the concept of "germs". With this pandemic, we are learning that they are to be feared and we must protect ourselves at all cost. At least, that is the message that is getting spread. I fear that this disease will have made a lasting impression on the collective consciousness of the human race.

But, I look at this through my own glasses which are tinted with the fear this disease has fostered in me. I admit it, I'm afraid. Being in the high risk category, every time I have to make a physical trip to a grocery store that fear rears its head. I already have respiratory problems, so every time I cough I wonder, is this it, am I catching the damn thing?

I hope you're right Steve and that we get past this and get back to normal, whatever that will mean post Covid.

[Darren Roberts]

2 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

True, but we all knew so much less about disease and viruses back then. These days, everyone knows about viruses, or at least the concept of "germs". With this pandemic, we are learning that they are to be feared and we must protect ourselves at all cost. At least, that is the message that is getting spread. I fear that this disease will have made a lasting impression on the collective consciousness of the human race.

But, I look at this through my own glasses which are tinted with the fear this disease has fostered in me. I admit it, I'm afraid. Being in the high risk category, every time I have to make a physical trip to a grocery store that fear rears its head. I already have respiratory problems, so every time I cough I wonder, is this it, am I catching the damn thing?

I hope you're right Steve and that we get past this and get back to normal, whatever that will mean post Covid.

 

I understand your fear, but you might be on your way to the grocery store and get in an accident and be killed. You may have a heart attack. You may have a stroke. You may get cancer. No one makes it out alive. No one lives forever. That's why you have to embrace each day as a gift. Every breath that you breathe is, in a sense, a miracle. The reason everyone is freaked out about this is that it's unknown and new. That scares the wits out of humans. That's just human nature. The regular flu is still deadly, but we don't freak out about it because it's now a relatively known quantity. We take precautions to protect ourselves, but the threat is still very real and very much present. This will be the same way. As SBarc said, life moved on from the Spanish Flu of 1918. Life will move on from this as well. This is not a disease that if you get it, it's essentially a death sentence. The mortality rate is around 5%, on the high end. If someone told you that you had a 95% chance of surviving some procedure, you wouldn't think twice about having it done. But guess what? There are those 5% who families have to grieve because someone died during the procedure. Does that mean we stop doing that procedure? Absolutely not. 

 

There are two trains of thought on this thread. One is that we should do everything we can to save lives, even if that means destroying economies and livelihoods. The other is that the economy should take precedence over physical distancing and that we need to get businesses up and running. They are both correct, in a sense. As a society, we should grieve with those who have lost loved ones. We should take steps to mitigate the spread of the disease (masks and gloves in public). We should be doing as much research as possible to find a vaccine. We should be re-opening businesses and getting people back to work. We can not continue to live isolated lives for months and months and months. We must get back to living. We need to be smart about it, but it needs to be done. Yes, people are going to die until this has run its course. But people die every day of a multitude of reasons and we don't give it but a passing thought. The thing that makes this different is that we feel we don't have any control. But do we really have any control of anything? Fear will cripple you. I guess the best way to sum this trainwreck of rambling up is to be smart, be safe, and live your life.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Darren Roberts

[Bob Beary]

Very well said Darren!!

[ChernayaAkula]

28 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

There are two trains of thought on this thread. One is that we should do everything we can to save lives, even if that means destroying economies and livelihoods. <...>

 

Wrong. There are more than two trains of thought.

It is entirely possible to do everything to save as many lives as possible without endangering economies and livelihoods.

 

The notion that it's either saving lives or the economy is a false dichotomy. There are other possibilities. And they're being enacted already.

[ChernayaAkula]

*** double post again. Sorry! ***

Edited April 20, 2020 by ChernayaAkula

[Scooby]

26 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

I understand your fear, but you might be on your way to the grocery store and get in an accident and be killed. You may have a heart attack. You may have a stroke. You may get cancer. No one makes it out alive. No one lives forever. That's why you have to embrace each day as a gift. Every breath that you breathe is, in a sense, a miracle. The reason everyone is freaked out about this is that it's unknown and new. That scares the wits out of humans. That's just human nature. The regular flu is still deadly, but we don't freak out about it because it's now a relatively known quantity. We take precautions to protect ourselves, but the threat is still very real and very much present. This will be the same way. As SBarc said, life moved on from the Spanish Flu of 1918. Life will move on from this as well. This is not a disease that if you get it, it's essentially a death sentence. The mortality rate is around 5%, on the high end. If someone told you that you had a 95% chance of surviving some procedure, you wouldn't think twice about having it done. But guess what? There are those 5% who families have to grieve because someone died during the procedure. Does that mean we stop doing that procedure? Absolutely not. 

 

There are two trains of thought on this thread. One is that we should do everything we can to save lives, even if that means destroying economies and livelihoods. The other is that the economy should take precedence over physical distancing and that we need to get businesses up and running. They are both correct, in a sense. As a society, we should grieve with those who have lost loved ones. We should take steps to mitigate the spread of the disease (masks and gloves in public). We should be doing as much research as possible to find a vaccine. We should be re-opening businesses and getting people back to work. We can not continue to live isolated lives for months and months and months. We must get back to living. We need to be smart about it, but it needs to be done. Yes, people are going to die until this has run its course. But people die every day of a multitude of reasons and we don't give it but a passing thought. The thing that makes this different is that we feel we don't have any control. But do we really have any control of anything? Fear will cripple you. I guess the best way to sum this trainwreck of rambling up is to be smart, be safe, and live your life.

 

Like Habu, I also work in the medical field. I work in Cancer Care, research, and prototype medical device creation. My professor says I am a scientist first before a Biomedical Engineer. I've had work published in medical journals and I am currently working in collaboration with several labs working on a vaccine for covid. So I am front line with this virus. I see it in both patients and in the lab. My wife is an emergency room RN and it is terrifying to hear what she is seeing. In normal times you don't see entire departments/hospitals overwhelmed with one illness.

 

One thing I keep hearing is this argument about how few people are dying from this virus when compared to other illness.

 

The key difference here is the transmission. It is much higher, without the social distancing we potentially could be wiping out millions, with no end in sight. Economies will recover. Dead people don't. Cardiac events have increased 5 fold since this virus was introduced, there are people who fall ill and don't even make it to a hospital. And many of these deaths are not being accounted for in the numbers. It is now well known this virus is not only attacking the lungs, it is also causing inflammation in the heart and kidneys and other key organs in the body.

 

I get it, that times are tough. My parents lived in Scotland during the war, both of their homes were destroyed by German bombing and money and jobs were non-existent for most of the war. Food was rationed and scarce. I think we can survive a few months to stop the spread of this virus, times have been much tougher. The 30s are another example.

 

It's tough to read this thread, reading about people upset they can't get their hair cut or wash their truck. We sure became an entitled world. 

[Darren Roberts]

9 minutes ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

Wrong. There are more than two trains of thought.

It is entirely possible to do everything to save as many lives as possible without endangering economies and livelihoods.

 

The notion that it's either saving lives or the economy is a false dichotomy. There are other possibilities. And they're being enacted already.

 

That was my point. We need to find the middle ground of doing both. What we can't do is live in fear.

[Scooby]

1 minute ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

That was my point. We need to find the middle ground of doing both. What we can't do is live in fear.

 

Middle ground does exist with increased testing and PPE and simple procedures like washing hands and not touching your nose, mouth, or eyes.

[ChernayaAkula]

3 hours ago, Mstor said:

<...> I fear that this disease will have made a lasting impression on the collective consciousness of the human race. <...>

 

I guess it will leave a lasting impression. I suppose there is a silver lining, though. With any luck, we'll go back to a new normal. A new normal that will heed the lessons learned and leave us better prepared for any future pandemics.

Hell of a cost, though, to learn (re-learn, really) lessons that we shouldn't have needed to relearn. 

[Darren Roberts]

2 minutes ago, Scooby said:

 

Like Habu, I also work in the medical field. I work in Cancer Care, research, and prototype medical device creation. My professor says I am a scientist first before a Biomedical Engineer. I've had work published in medical journals and I am currently working in collaboration with several labs working on a vaccine for covid. So I am front line with this virus. I see it in both patients and in the lab. My wife is an emergency room RN and it is terrifying to hear what she is seeing. In normal times you don't see entire departments/hospitals overwhelmed with one illness.

 

One thing I keep hearing is this argument about how few people are dying from this virus when compared to other illness.

 

The key difference here is the transmission. It is much higher, without the social distancing we potentially could be wiping out millions, with no end in sight. Economies will recover. Dead people don't. Cardiac events have increased 5 fold since this virus was introduced, there are people who fall ill and don't even make it to a hospital. And many of these deaths are not being accounted for in the numbers. It is now well known this virus is not only attacking the lungs, it is also causing inflammation in the heart and kidneys and other key organs in the body.

 

I get it, that times are tough. My parents lived in Scotland during the war, both of their homes were destroyed by German bombing and money and jobs were non-existent for most of the war. Food was rationed and scarce. I think we can survive a few months to stop the spread of this virus, times have been much tougher. The 30s are another example.

 

It's tough to read this thread, reading about people upset they can't get their hair cut or wash their truck. We sure became an entitled world. 

 

Like ChernayaAkula, I think you missed the point of my post. I'm not saying that we should just get back to normal right away. But I keep hearing talk of having to go 18 months of what we're doing. We should take steps to protect ourselves, focus on finding a vaccine and making sure the health system isn't overwhelmed. Again, be smart, be safe, and live your life.

[Scooby]

Just now, Darren Roberts said:

 

Like ChernayaAkula, I think you missed the point of my post. I'm not saying that we should just get back to normal right away. But I keep hearing talk of having to go 18 months of what we're doing. We should take steps to protect ourselves, focus on finding a vaccine and making sure the health system isn't overwhelmed. Again, be smart, be safe, and live your life.

 

I honestly hear you Darren and I not on opposite ends of the field as you.

 

I don't think this will be 18 months. Theoretically, if everyone did the right thing for two weeks that would have stopped the spread. Early containment was the key.

 

[Darren Roberts]

5 minutes ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

I guess it will leave a lasting impression. I suppose there is a silver lining, though. With any luck, we'll go back to a new normal. A new normal that will heed the lessons learned and leave us better prepared for any future pandemics.

Hell of a cost, though, to learn (re-learn, really) lessons that we shouldn't have needed to relearn. 

 

Welcome to humanity. Once this runs its course, we'll go back to regular life for the most part. There may be a few changes here or there, but on the whole this will be left to history, much like the other pandemics that have come before. That's just the way humans are. War is a perfect example. You'd think that after the bloodbaths we've had over the century, we might get a clue that war is bad. Nope, not a chance. 

[Darren Roberts]

1 minute ago, Scooby said:

 

I honestly hear you Darren and I not on opposite ends of the field as you.

 

I don't think this will be 18 months. Theoretically, if everyone did the right thing for two weeks that would have stopped the spread. Early containment was the key.

 

 

I would even say that travel should be restricted within the region you live in for a few weeks, with the exception of food/cargo/mail/etc. That way it would contain it to certain areas. I've read about Hong Kong, I think, that had it under control, and then all the expats came back and they got hit with a second wave.

[habu2]

13 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

Welcome to humanity. Once this runs its course, we'll go back to regular life for the most part. There may be a few changes here or there, but on the whole this will be left to history, much like the other pandemics that have come before. That's just the way humans are. War is a perfect example. You'd think that after the bloodbaths we've had over the century, we might get a clue that war is bad. Nope, not a chance. 

 

Not to sound trite but Churchill's famous quote "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" is very applicable here.  I'm sure there will be studies out the yahoo about how the world, the countries, the governments, the health system and society as a whole handled this pandemic and what could have been done better. But if we fail to heed those studies, if we fail to plan and prepare for the next pandemic, we are doomed to repeat it.

 

In the US we have FEMA to help manage recoveries from hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes etc. It has become painfully obvious that the US did not have a plan nor the resources to react to and mitigate the effects of a viral pandemic.  Will we learn from this?  Or will we continue to debate and point fingers?

[Mstor]

1 hour ago, Scooby said:

 

Like Habu, I also work in the medical field. I work in Cancer Care, research, and prototype medical device creation. My professor says I am a scientist first before a Biomedical Engineer. I've had work published in medical journals and I am currently working in collaboration with several labs working on a vaccine for covid. So I am front line with this virus. I see it in both patients and in the lab. My wife is an emergency room RN and it is terrifying to hear what she is seeing. In normal times you don't see entire departments/hospitals overwhelmed with one illness.

 

One thing I keep hearing is this argument about how few people are dying from this virus when compared to other illness.

 

The key difference here is the transmission. It is much higher, without the social distancing we potentially could be wiping out millions, with no end in sight. Economies will recover. Dead people don't. Cardiac events have increased 5 fold since this virus was introduced, there are people who fall ill and don't even make it to a hospital. And many of these deaths are not being accounted for in the numbers. It is now well known this virus is not only attacking the lungs, it is also causing inflammation in the heart and kidneys and other key organs in the body.

 

I get it, that times are tough. My parents lived in Scotland during the war, both of their homes were destroyed by German bombing and money and jobs were non-existent for most of the war. Food was rationed and scarce. I think we can survive a few months to stop the spread of this virus, times have been much tougher. The 30s are another example.

 

It's tough to read this thread, reading about people upset they can't get their hair cut or wash their truck. We sure became an entitled world. 

 

This! Thanks Scooby.

 

In my area I am already starting to see people go to stores without a mask or gloves. I don't know if they are running out of masks or if they don't think they need to use them. More disturbing is that many of the store workers had no masks on and were stocking fresh vegetables. I confronted a manager and he said "oh, using masks is just a recommendation". I pressed him and stated that at least workers stocking fresh foods should have them, and he admitted that they were out of masks but expected a shipment soon.

Without widespread testing, we don't know who is infected or who has had it (admittedly a different test then the one testing for the virus). I think it is negligent of the store not providing masks to workers that they have no idea whether they are infected or not. I don't know what the answer is to the problem of availability of masks. I've been trying to order some for a while no without luck and will have to resort to some sort of homemade cloth bandana mask. I'm digging through old sheets in preparation. I'm going to look like some sort of old gangster. Should be fun, though bandana masks are less effective. Better then nothing in my book.

[Mstor]

46 minutes ago, habu2 said:

In the US we have FEMA to help manage recoveries from hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes etc. It has become painfully obvious that the US did not have a plan nor the resources to react to and mitigate the effects of a viral pandemic.  Will we learn from this?  Or will we continue to debate and point fingers?

 

I think at some point in the past, someone had the right idea as there are or were supposedly stockpiles of medical equipment maintained by the federal government. Unfortunately, the current administration has been reluctant to release these and when they did, many of the masks were rotted through and unusable. Who knows how old some of the stockpiles are. If you want to prepare for situations like this you need to create and then maintain the stockpiles. Old stock needs to be replaced. Who knows how old the respirators they have stockpiled are? 

Once you have equipment and supplies stockpiled, you also need plans on how to distribute them to the areas where it needed. If they had such plans, they certainly didn't enact them. They could have tapped the US military, who are experts in logistics. As far as I know, that hasn't happened either.

Situation normal, all F%$@! up.

[11bee]

1 hour ago, Scooby said:

It's tough to read this thread, reading about people upset they can't get their hair cut or wash their truck. We sure became an entitled world. 

Spoken like someone who doesn’t have to worry about losing his job (and if your wife is an ER nurse, guessing she doesn’t have any employment worries either).  For others, the economic impact is more than a minor inconvenience.  It seems a bit “let them eat cake-ish” to just write off the pain this is causing as nothing more than collateral damage.   In my area, many small business are done.  They have closed and aren’t coming back.  These owners put everything into their business and now it’s gone.  I work in a very specialized field, if I get laid off, I’m not finding equivalent work anywhere else.   I’m putting a daughter through college.   I’ve got a mortgage to pay.   It’s a bit more than just being pissed off that I can’t get a haircut.  Even if restrictions are lifted soon (something I don’t necessarily agree with), it’s not like the economy will be back in full operation within a few weeks. The damage is already done and it’s going to be a long time (years) before things return to where they were a few months ago.  
 

Every week that goes by sees more businesses shut down for good, more workers laid off but hey, those folks are just collateral damage.  

[Whiskey]

16 minutes ago, Mstor said:

They could have tapped the US military, who are experts in logistics. As far as I know, that hasn't happened either.

Situation normal, all F%$@! up.

 

LOL I dunno if I'd go so far as to state we are experts in logistics. It's quite a normal procedure to NEVER get requested supplies when you need them, get the wrong supplies, or only get HALF of what you requested. Someone somewhere always hoards stuff and leaves the front-line troops with only what they have on hand. One of the reasons why most units have 60-70% FMC vehicles in their motor pools. Hell look at the readiness levels of USAF and USN squadrons.

 

Based on my experiences a lot of it has to do with the multiple logistic systems that the military, specifically the Army uses. I don't how many times I went to my S-6 with requests or to inquire about previous requests and have been told the system is down or it can't cross talk with other supply programs.

[Scooby]

20 minutes ago, 11bee said:

Spoken like someone who doesn’t have to worry about losing his job (and if your wife is an ER nurse, guessing she doesn’t have any employment worries either).  For others, the economic impact is more than a minor inconvenience.  It seems a bit “let them eat cake-ish” to just write off the pain this is causing as nothing more than collateral damage.   In my area, many small business are done.  They have closed and aren’t coming back.  These owners put everything into their business and now it’s gone.  I work in a very specialized field, if I get laid off, I’m not finding equivalent work anywhere else.   I’m putting a daughter through college.   I’ve got a mortgage to pay.   It’s a bit more than just being pissed off that I can’t get a haircut.  Even if restrictions are lifted soon (something I don’t necessarily agree with), it’s not like the economy will be back in full operation within a few weeks. The damage is already done and it’s going to be a long time (years) before things return to where they were a few months ago.  
 

Every week that goes by sees more businesses shut down for good, more workers laid off but hey, those folks are just collateral damage.  

As I mentioned, I totally sympathize and understand with those out of work. Do you think we feel comfortable working around this virus? It isn’t a great feeling and I am scared for my wife.

 

Governments should be able help their people. Canada is doing a great job helping out business and the unemployed with funds. 
 

I didn’t reply to your previous thread to this one but I did sympathize with you.

 

Health is first and foremost.

[nspreitler]

2 hours ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

I understand your fear, but you might be on your way to the grocery store and get in an accident and be killed. You may have a heart attack. You may have a stroke. You may get cancer. No one makes it out alive. No one lives forever. That's why you have to embrace each day as a gift. Every breath that you breathe is, in a sense, a miracle. The reason everyone is freaked out about this is that it's unknown and new. That scares the wits out of humans. That's just human nature. The regular flu is still deadly, but we don't freak out about it because it's now a relatively known quantity. We take precautions to protect ourselves, but the threat is still very real and very much present. This will be the same way. As SBarc said, life moved on from the Spanish Flu of 1918. Life will move on from this as well. This is not a disease that if you get it, it's essentially a death sentence. The mortality rate is around 5%, on the high end. If someone told you that you had a 95% chance of surviving some procedure, you wouldn't think twice about having it done. But guess what? There are those 5% who families have to grieve because someone died during the procedure. Does that mean we stop doing that procedure? Absolutely not. 

 

There are two trains of thought on this thread. One is that we should do everything we can to save lives, even if that means destroying economies and livelihoods. The other is that the economy should take precedence over physical distancing and that we need to get businesses up and running. They are both correct, in a sense. As a society, we should grieve with those who have lost loved ones. We should take steps to mitigate the spread of the disease (masks and gloves in public). We should be doing as much research as possible to find a vaccine. We should be re-opening businesses and getting people back to work. We can not continue to live isolated lives for months and months and months. We must get back to living. We need to be smart about it, but it needs to be done. Yes, people are going to die until this has run its course. But people die every day of a multitude of reasons and we don't give it but a passing thought. The thing that makes this different is that we feel we don't have any control. But do we really have any control of anything? Fear will cripple you. I guess the best way to sum this trainwreck of rambling up is to be smart, be safe, and live your life.

 

If someone told me that by going to a movie or a concert there is one in twenty chance I would die because of it I wouldn't go.  If a medical procedure only had a 95% survival rate it would have to be critical for me to do it.   95% isn't good, it is certainly something to think twice about.   

[Darren Roberts]

1 hour ago, nspreitler said:

 

If someone told me that by going to a movie or a concert there is one in twenty chance I would die because of it I wouldn't go.  If a medical procedure only had a 95% survival rate it would have to be critical for me to do it.   95% isn't good, it is certainly something to think twice about.   

 

You don't have a 1 in 20 chance of dying if you go to a movie. You have to contract the virus first. If you are smart, you limit that chance exponentially. If you wear a mask and gloves and then dispose of them after the movie, don't touch your face, and wash your hands, you have a very small chance of getting Covid-19, and an even smaller chance of dying from it. The virus doesn't magically jump onto you and crawl inside you. That's the fear I'm talking about. Once again, be smart, be safe, and live your life.

[nspreitler]

5 minutes ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

You don't have a 1 in 20 chance of dying if you go to a movie. You have to contract the virus first. If you are smart, you limit that chance exponentially. If you wear a mask and gloves and then dispose of them after the movie, don't touch your face, and wash your hands, you have a very small chance of getting Covid-19, and an even smaller chance of dying from it. The virus doesn't magically jump onto you and crawl inside you. That's the fear I'm talking about. Once again, be smart, be safe, and live your life.

 

My point is that 95% isn't good.   There isn't much I would do if there was a one in twenty chance of dying.   If it was one in two hundred or one in a thousand that still wouldn't be worth it to go to a movie or get on a cruise ship.   

 

To claim this isn't bad because it only kills one in twenty is downplaying the threat.   I am not saying we should keep everything closed, but dismissing it by saying it has a 95% survival rate is foolish  

[ChernayaAkula]

2 hours ago, 11bee said:

Spoken like someone who doesn’t have to worry about losing his job (and if your wife is an ER nurse, guessing she doesn’t have any employment worries either).  For others, the economic impact is more than a minor inconvenience.  It seems a bit “let them eat cake-ish” to just write off the pain this is causing as nothing more than collateral damage.   In my area, many small business are done.  They have closed and aren’t coming back.  These owners put everything into their business and now it’s gone.  I work in a very specialized field, if I get laid off, I’m not finding equivalent work anywhere else.   I’m putting a daughter through college.   I’ve got a mortgage to pay.   It’s a bit more than just being pissed off that I can’t get a haircut.  Even if restrictions are lifted soon (something I don’t necessarily agree with), it’s not like the economy will be back in full operation within a few weeks. The damage is already done and it’s going to be a long time (years) before things return to where they were a few months ago.  
 

Every week that goes by sees more businesses shut down for good, more workers laid off but hey, those folks are just collateral damage.  

 

What about the dead? What are they? Are they collateral damage?

It also seems a bit “let them eat cake-ish” to just write off the dead as nothing more than collateral damage.

Do you think the people dying have no mortgages to pay? Do you think they have no daughters to put through college? What about the bereaved family members? They have mortgages to pay and daughters to put through college on top of having lost a loved one!

 

How are jobs or businesses more important than people?