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Finally; a new 1/72 Phantom


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8 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

Hi Cmayer,

 

Thanks for the great addition!

Yes. I did every now and then go back to that image (what little is visible of it) and compared to my RF-4 refferences and was thinking that there is little chance that it is the recon bird nose more likely the short gun version. There was simply no logical explanation why have only the nose section of an RF while the there are so many other differences on the recon bird.

But there were so many other things going around so I did not return to this question. 

 

Thanks for clearing it up and showing that images! The overall picture is clearer now.

So I guess it is a good thing (that quality drawings were used). Well not for those who were looking forward to a real RF-4. Still there is hope . . . 

 

Thanks!

 

Best regards

Gabor

Hi Gabor -

I think the modeler/artist/graphic engineer that owns the Wings of Pegasus web site is Jun Temma. If you haven't looked at his multi-drawing study of all those F-4 variants I mentioned, you really should; and read his accompanying article. He used McDonnell-produced drawings and loft lines, combined with various F-4 operating and maintenance manuals to piece together the major shape and transition differences among the "short-nosed" U.S. & British Phantoms, the RF-4 series, and the F-4E (and by extension, EJ) series.

 

See it here: http://soyuyo.main.jp/f4/f4e-1.html#bottom

 

Especially fascinating is his "discovery" of how the "long-nose" F-4s (RF and F-4E/EJ) have a much different upper contour starting about 2 inches "up" the forward edge of the "short-nosed" wind screen. Which explains the variations of windscreen quarter-panel framing over the life of the Phantom series. Once you "see" this, you immediately understand why so many RF and F-4E/EJ/G models just never looked right in contour or proportion. Upshot is that the RF and E/EJ upper nose contour intersects the windscreen at a higher elevation and the windscreen is cut shorter on the forward edge than all the short-nose variants (B/C/D/J/K/M/N/S). And at some point, MDD stopped producing the longer windscreen quarter panels for replacements on the short-nose variants; resulting in some short-nose airframes in the latter years of service having a bracket frame painted at the extreme front of the windscreen that matches the shape and shortened dimension of the "long-nose" F-4 windscreens. Note that for Vietnam-service era short-nose phantoms, that short-bracket frame would be "wrong" and should not be used. In fact, that shorter framework pattern should only be used on a specific aircraft you have photo references indicating a replacement windscreen in late '70s-'90s service.

 

f4047.jpgf4003.png

 

Additionally, his RF-4 drawings clearly distinguish the differences between the "flat" and the "Curved" RF nose contours. His article shows comparative contour studies, using multi-color loft lines to highlight similarities and differences.

 

f4061.png  f4contour_rf.png

 

I think the fact that Finemolds is collaborating with Jun Temma/Wings of Pegasus is a *strong* indicator that the overall outline, contours, and proportions of their new Phantom will be ground-breakingly accurate. Additionally, it may definitely leave the door open for those other variants (U.S. Navy/Air Force/British short-nose and RF-4 series), since Jun Temma has done the heavy lifting to create accurate 3-D capable images of each of those major variants.

Edited by cmayer
missing word
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Hi Cmayer,

 

Thanks for the link and the detailed expalanation. 

As for the windscreen quarter panel question, yes, I knew about it for some time by comparing photos of different versions and it was visible that "something fishy" is going on there! : )  : )  : )

 

Recently some books have also dealt with this question. 

It is interesting that FineMolds is giving a separate nose top part right before the windscreen in the exact area mentioned by that comparison. Also that we have seen only one part of that sprue mould tool. As far as I can make out the transparent sprue has 3 parts. The one main part shown on previous page with the pilot and RIO canopy and the intermediate part. Which in principle shoudl be the same, OK there are versions with some outer rareview mirrors, but apart from that. 

We have seen the 2 smaller sprue which had one windscreen with some additional small parts. The hand of the FineMolds man is over an area where in principle there could be a 3rd small sprue. Or not, but there is a gate going that way. 

 

N3NXiv8.jpg

 

This is the only image so far showing the clear sprues with most of its parts. On all later images exclusively only the canopy part is shown or the other areas are covered with masking tape. 

Well it could be anything but it is pure speculation and from this point a thread like this can end up in an endless shape going to 100, 200 or even 300 pages as we have already seen. I would not like this forum to be turned into that so  . . .

 

But would very much like to see what happened with those nose section 3D printed parts and hopefuly a test build from them. They would give us some answers. Well I would like most of all to hold in hands the actual plastic parts but August is not far. : )  : )  : )

 

FineMolds stated on it page that they would not answer or comment on projects currently under development, so there is little chance that they will say anything about possible future versions. All we can do is waite.

 

Have a great weekend and stay safe! It is not over as some people would like us to believe!

 

Best regards

Gabor 

 

Edited by ya-gabor
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Yes, when I saw that photo of the clear sprue parts, I immediately recognized that the windscreen is appropriately shortened for the E/EJ contours, and I interpreted that as another indicator Finemolds is, at least planning-wise, setting up their sprue pairings to offer a different windscreen later...I think it's more likely to be the "long" windscreen for a short-nosed variant (U.S. Navy/Air Force, UK?), while I have read others speculate that they might also offer a one-piece windscreen. Possible I guess, but I don't think I've seen any photos of JASDF EJs with the one-piece windscreen (which was fielded on a only a few ANG F-4Es and maybe some RF-4Cs near the end of their service in the late '80s).

 

My other thought, was that maintaining the option to offer a different windscreen for a different (short-nosed) variant at a later date would explain the "2-piece/1-piece canopy," as Gene K called it (lol). This option obviously keeps the front and rear canopy assembly cleanly molded together (as you point out), but is flexible for future boxings/variants to use a different (e.g., longer), separate windscreen.

 

You're right: August is getting closer and at least the first boxings will provide definitive answers that so many have had fun speculating about until now. Good Hunting!

Best,

Chris

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Might be a bit off topic at the moment. But the vertical tail had also differences in some panels bewteen the Recce and non-Recce versions. I just can't find the post to it anymore. IIRC it was here on ARC.

Cheers

Michael

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So far I like what I see 🙂 

The early picture of the stabilator moulds suggested there being a problem with the proportions between inner and outer parts but the more recent picture of the test shot stabilator looks much better and I'm not so sure any more if there is a problem or not. I've got a kit on pre-order to check it out once released. I'm not making shape guesstimates on what's shown yet unless there was a glaring problem.

If both the varying canopy cross sections and the differences between the upper nose decks of short and long nose Phantoms have been replicated I'd be really impressed!

I do wonder if there'd be parts for the canopy insides...Perhaps difficult to produce in 1:72, but they made the engine nozzle seals separate parts as well so there is hope.

Cheers,

J

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Hi Jeffrey,

 

We will have to see how the kit progresses. As far as I could make out with big G translator this coming week they will have test sprues from the canopy. Hope they will show more of it. If they used those drawings mentioned earlier in this forum then I would say there is a strong chance that it is there.  : )

 

As to the inside (& I know what you are getting at) of the canopy I think there is simply a scale limit of where one can go with injection moulding. In resin casting or photoetch why not but in plastic it is a shaky ground.

I was first fighting hard to get canopy /cockpit rail details and area under windscreen on the G.W.H Su-35 years back. Areas almost always neglected by manufacturers but as it turned out in the end I was in a much better position of getting all that in for the new Su-27 kit. BUT that is 48th scale!!!!

 

Still hope at least they do the cockpit side rails or else it will be up to you, or Eduard, or who ever . . .

 

 

Stay safe!

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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7 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

If both the varying canopy cross sections . . . 

 

Cheers,

J

 

Looking at those drawings at the top of the page and comparing that “very strange” S shaped canopy edge with the mould photo for the canopies. It looks very similar!

 

rEwWZ7z.jpg

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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Btw, as much as I appreciate Jumpei Temma's amazing work, I don't take his drawings without a small grain of salt either.

When working on my latest F-4 pylons in CAD I loaded in his drawings and found significant discrepancies to the McD drawings (annotated with dimensions) and picture overlays. Perhaps Jun-san's priority wasn't on the pylons and that's understandable, but nevertheless I would always cross check with other data, whichever the source.

J

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Just as there is no 100% perfect kit I am sure there is no perfect scale drawing. 

Having seen a lot of Russian factory drawings I can say that one will never find one set which has all the batch modifications included / incorporated into it! So even factory production prints are not perfect. 

 

One can only approach the level of "The best" scale representation but will never fully reach it. Still it will look good and certainly better than previous ones.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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The week starts with tests of the JASDF weapons set. This is a good opportunity to follow up on previous posts detailing kit production and the “after life” of the injection moulding tool after it was declared ready for moulding those plastic kits we want so much.

 

 9XEx2sN.jpg

 

And here is a bunch of weapons sprues.

 

eOC6Dxg.jpg 

 

It would be naive to imagine that everything works perfect from the very first moment. It is interesting that while most manufacturers would only show perfect sprues, in this case FineMolds is willing to show very first moulds which are far from perfect. A lot of adjustment is needed before a prefect sprue is made.

 

NMH3VDw.jpg

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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OK parts for the F-4EJ Phantom are on the way of production but it is interesting to see that FineMolds is going a similar business strategy as a known Czech manufacturer where apart from the actual kit many home-made aftermarkets are also offered for those who prefer a more professional detailing of the kit like for example the turned pitot or the extra weapons set.

 

But also here is something special. Remember this is 72 nd scale and injection moulded. We all know those aftermarket photoetch brass or steel and prepainted extras for detailing ejection seats.

 

In the NANO range FineMolds is offering all this from injection moulded plastic. Here is a comparison of the original seat from the kit and one next to it fitted with all those micro plastic detailing parts. Not bad from plastic parts!

 

wJT8VZZ.jpg

 

 

OesoS80.jpg

 

 

tgA7ylo.jpg

 

 

OoAPP6e.jpg

 

 

Now where did I put my microscope???

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

 

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Last week the canopy mould tools were polished and as predicted this week some test sprues were made. And of course FineMolds has posted an image of the new and of the "old" canopy, a before and after comparison. Of course I am not speaking of polishing the actual plastic part but of the production tool for it! : )  : )   : )

 

 

LKk8DLM.jpg

 

 

Best regards

Gabor 

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I know it is not much of a news but  .  .  .   and not much is seen on the image, but . . .

 

Metal is cut! According to today’s post machining is on for the nose section of the new 72nd scale FineMolds F-4EJ Phantom kit. Somewhere below all that foam of lubricant is the metal for the would-be nose section.

 

 

LffhB5N.jpg 

 

 

I would suspect that they did do a trial build of all those 3D printed parts shown some time ago and now it was time to cut metal for it. Hope we will see some details of the tool soon as well (or first test shots).

 

Best regards

Gabor

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I know I have been quite on this new FineMolds F-4EJ Phantom project. But the reason is very simple. Work is full steam ahead at FineMolds only there was nothing spectacular to show based on images they published in the past week. Slabs of steel and more steel with parts missing from them. . . We have seen that before.

 

But here is a first understandable / comprehendible image. The nose section sprue is taking shape mechanical forming is done on one side of the mould and now EMD and laser etching is next. White lubricating fluid is filling up all the recesses of the mould giving a good contrast and showing up some parts. Clearly visible are the wing fuel tank parts and to the right the bigger void in my belief is where right and left sides of the nose parts will go.

 

lmRNWN1.jpg

 

Also there is the classical Phantom centreline fuel there on the top! So this should be the standard sprue for the kit. One could speculate that this is one more reason to suspect that there is a chance for future Navy Phantom kits from FineMolds. But this is only speculation.

The sprue we have seen earlier with the F-15 style fuel tank is more for the late versions.

 

dqlNF1Z.jpg 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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I would say this is some nice progress. A lot of raw blocks of brass waiting to be machined into proper anodes.

 

 I13De2o.jpg

 

Is this the left and right side nose section parts anodes?

 

4377DBU.jpg 

 

Turn the image around and zoom in. Yes they are! With all surface details (most).  

 

SX88Mjd.jpg

 

It is now up to that spark etching process to make the appropriate negative in the steel mould.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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5 hours ago, Craig Baldwin said:

Another view of the wing bottom, a new image posted by FineMolds.

 

Thanks, Craig. I can add these:

 

The parts layout looks like adding Hasegawa nose pieces, like the RF, wouldn't take too much ... .   :thumbsup2:

 

n4hzKPl.jpg

 

Another "clear" view.

 

IT7oO6u.jpg

 

Tantalizing teasers.

 

Gene K

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Using Google translate, the sign to the right says:

 

Shipping late august, Dealer orders due July 6th. Display model forward fuselage is 3D printed.

 

Cheers,

Hoops

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12 hours ago, Hoops said:

Using Google translate, the sign to the right says: ,,, ,

 

Thanks.

 

Did you use the very cool Android mobile app to "translate the picture" ... or is there a way to do it on the computer?

 

Gene K

Edited by GeneK
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