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Finally; a new 1/72 Phantom


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This is only a sketch of the layout I believe.

 

I believe it is much easier to do some preliminary work this way, much faster and easier. Sure there will come some comp experts saying that they can do it faster on the screen. But I am no expert so for example I also did some of the design layouts for G.W.H this way. It was fast and efficient.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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Just now, mario krijan said:

I  agree, but it is nice to have it on paper.. actually when you design something, it is always easier to find error on paper than in software! Yes those are first sketches, but is nice to see!

 

Yes!!!  : )   : )

 

Gabor

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Going back and checking the parts layout seemingly optimistic viewing, that they have the E version vertical tail grouped with the forward fuselage parts. Besides the EJ and EJkai vertical tails as separate sprues. Again looking as though at least plans to manufacture the short nose versions.

 

Apologies if this was covered already.

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6 hours ago, Craig Baldwin said:

 ... seemingly optimistic viewing ... looking as though at least plans to manufacture the short nose versions.

 

I like "optimistic viewing"!!

 

As for short noses, until FM produces them ("optimistic crystal balling"), I have a couple of FM kits that I ordered earmarked for use with Hasegawa short nose kits (of which I have many :banana:).  Plan is too use either: all the FM goodies like interior, intakes, etc to supplement the Hasegawa kits; or better, use Has noses to blend with the FM fuselages. Wings will be TBD, but slats shouldn't be a problem, and same for the slotted stabs.

 

First "optimistic conversion" will be JASDF RF-4E. Should be fun.

 

Gene K

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2 hours ago, Craig Baldwin said:

I can only assume you have this part?

 

Yes, that's the resin piece from Hasegawa KA104 RF-4EJ kit. I also have the pods below from  Hasegawa RF-4EJ 02322 kit, sprue Y:

 

LAQQ1y1.jpg

 

That sprue was also in the expensive  02075 double kit containing both the RF-4E and the RF-4EJ.

 

10242480b2.jpg

 

Rounding out the JASDF pods, I have the  AN/ALQ-131 (deep) from the Eduard 163 672 set.

 

KWyPf48.jpg

 

 

So I think  (?) I have all the pods carried by both the RF-4E and RF-4EJ.  :thumbsup2:

 

Would be great if FM next issued their new kit as an RF-4EJ along with the pods, and then went one step further with the RF-4E.

 

Gene K

 

 

 

 

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50 minutes ago, JeffreyK said:

Looking quite good!

Did the JASDF use the early McD 600gal tank?

J

Early on.  I know I have seen a regular F-4EJ with one attached. Doesn’t seem very common though.  I couldn’t find a Kai version with one so I’m thinking they phased the out some time in the mid to late 80’s. 

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57 minutes ago, achterkirch said:

Early on.  I know I have seen a regular F-4EJ with one attached. Doesn’t seem very common though.  I couldn’t find a Kai version with one so I’m thinking they phased the out some time in the mid to late 80’s. 

 

 Thanks very much!

J

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 7 hours ago, JackMan said:

https://dxmdecals.com/products-1 

 Leave at least one of the RF-4EJ sheets for me.  Been trying to get my hands on them 😀

 

Thanks. Please let me know where you find them! 

 

As great as those decals look, with prices in the $24 range , I will likely leave all those sheets for you. 

 

As an aside, those markings AND a Hasegawa kit are available for "only"  $7 more from Hobby Search ... if shipping ever gets back to normal. I have that kit  as well as a couple of the similarly marked RF-4E kits, and the decals look excellent.

 

Gene K

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On 8/21/2020 at 10:08 AM, Craig Baldwin said:

 Again looking as though at least plans to manufacture the short nose versions.

 

Maybe an F-4B/N/J/S (yes slatted wing would be great):

 

Nfr4jwa.jpg

 

Or a Brit F-4J.  Or with that slatted wing,  a Greek F-4E, ... . :whistle:

 

Gene K

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Pictures of painted prototype models of the -EJ and -EJKai models are here and here. Very (!) impressive, but some small details are understandably not there yet.

 

Egee2-uU0AAz5ne?format=jpg&name=4096x409

 

Also, a 10 minute detailed YouTube video review of the sprues  is here, but in Japanese.  Can get subtitles in rough English by selecting  "Auto Translate" in Settings.

 

Gene K

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On 6/13/2020 at 4:11 AM, ya-gabor said:

 

I have no idea where I have that article on my visit to Zvezda presstool workshop. But I think it would be inappropriate to have it in this thread. The fact that FineMolds is showing a hell of a lot of images from the birth of this new Phantom kit gives a perfect opportunity to use them to show some technology involved in this fascinating process.

OK we don’t have any CAD images but in FineMolds workshop there is a wealth of pictures from later stages, all the machinery involved and in-progress views.

 

Lets look at the brass anodes. Brass of course is far softer and easier to work with than carving out a press tool from hard steel blocks. There are many other reasons also for using brass and an interim part.

 

Based on broken down plans for individual future parts appropriate size brass blocks are cut, all numbered.

 

2gCsfLj.jpg

 

 

The delicate machining work starts to produce a perfect positive part, that is, it is identical with what the would-be plastic part will look like only it is one-sided. For the reverse side of the future plastic part another anode part has be made. All the minute details are added which will / should be showing on the negative steel mould.

 

Here is a view of before and after version.

 

7nLQevK.jpg

 

The one in the background is for the stabilizers (or whichever name you want to call them) horizontal control surfaces.  Of course in this case both upper and underside versions have to be made and they have to match (perfectly). Don’t forget that between them on the steel tool there will be an extremely thin gap where the molten plastic will / should flow.

 

Here it is after the basic shape was completed.

 

wg0PcaN.jpg

 

Detailing like in this case with the intake splitter plate is made with a drill of 0.1mm diameter.

 

BGYx4XQ.jpg

 

 

029e70e.jpg

 

The brass anode tool is complete and ready to be used to carve out hard steel surfaces.

 

b8M2Nj4.jpg

 

 

Images are from FineMolds pages!

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

you can use brass wire in an EDM machine (comes off a huge roll, and is usually .010" or .012" in diameter), but not in a sinker. Just looking at the color photos I see copper inert tungsten. Very expensive blocks of metal, but also the only thing (other than graphite) that will do the job. Why copper tungsten, I don't remember exactly. Still that's the industry standard. Looks like somebody has done some nice machine work.

gary

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On 6/13/2020 at 2:30 PM, ya-gabor said:

 

At Zvezda there is no problem with machining the anode they are perfect! They have both the machines and the technology. It is what happens later!  :  (

 

The problem is that some Zvezda kits are superb while others like from a completely different manufacturer. I also have problems with 72 nd scale Flanker kits they made and with the MiG-29. After spark erosion with those anodes one needs to clean up the surface.  Polish it somehow. Sometimes it is done with gentle sand blasting. One can over do this and if you look at some Zvezda surfaces you will see that. The problem is that it will not only smooth the surface after spark erosion but also obliterate some fine surface features and can make panel lines almost invisible. Exactly those panel lines and rivets which were so nicely made on the brass anode. The Zvezda Pe-2 is like if it came from another manufacturer! It is so different and delicate!

 

But we are going off-topic here in a serious way for which in some countries one can get a life long ban! : )  : )  : )

I think we should return to the FineModels Phantom and the way it is made and leave Zvezda, its kits and what they can or cannot do to other topics.

 

Best regards

Gabor

what we did, was to make two male pieces nearly identical. (sometime three or four on very large molds) The first roughs it out, and the second one literally skims about one to two thousandths. If you go three, then your maybe fuzzing .0005" all the way around. The electrical power changes with each progressive cut to where you see a very smooth satin finish (well into the single digit surface quality finish). Each progressive cut ($$$!) makes all the lines and grooves sharper. By the way after three cuts, you looking at arc seconds for numbers. Compound cures are another factor that are closely guarded technology: let alone the computer program. 

gary

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13 hours ago, Laurent said:

Google "mirror edm". The hits will be roughly in two groups: mold maker claims and research papers.

first of all the word mirror is a forbidden word the world of CNC machining; yet it almost always there. Most CNC controls have the mirror image knob locked out to do only one thing. Prevent wrecks! I've made a lot of money off that knob (dial or whatever you want to call it). Remember that wreck will almost always be in the five figures and sometimes six figures. 

 

      I will tell you right up front that I used a wire five times more than a sinker, but we had three sinkers. One of them be rather large. Most of my molds were for powdered metal molding, and they ran in the +/-.0015" finished product range. I did help build the set of molds to create the head light buckets on a car we see everyday. The product was cut +/- one arc second. That machine (sinker) had it's own power supply directly from a power transformer owned by a local utility. I cannot go too much into detail do to the intellectual property clause I had to sign. 

 

     Those blocks of copper inert tungsten are the biggest I've seen in eons! Head lights were cut with graphite and finished with copper tungsten. The material used was 410 stainless steel with a heated and cooled molding block. You do this to created a constant temp in the block for the flow liquid plastic. Especially critical for clear plastics. When done you have two to three million in each molding block. Powdered metal technology is easy compared to what those guys were doing. 

 

    Another tidbit is that extremely small end mill (drill maybe) used in the copied Erickson tool holder. That cutting speed will probably work out to where you need 50,000 rpm ( maybe 75K rpm). Doing that in a CNC machine center is nuts! (you'll eat ABEC 9 ceramic spindle bearings like they are going out of style). The good part is that your only changing out a spindle cartridge at about $40K. A CNC jig grinder would make short work out of this job and never see these issues, but Moore doesn't export last I heard. 

Want to have fun? Try grinding an irregular curve at +/- .000020" with the Dragon Lady looking over your shoulder. That is one of the main parts in the Abrams tank.

gary

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Apart from technological question the fact is that the kit is taking shape and it looks good. A completely different ideology from many other manufacturers. 

Yes it cost money to do a better job, better surface, more details on that surface and it is for each company to fine that golden middle way where the end product is something that they themselves like and proud to be included in the range, modellers can afford to buy and there is still return on investment.

 

Companies do it differently and we have a free choice to buy what we like.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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