Finally; a new 1/72 Phantom

[MoFo]

From the Structural Repair manual. 

 

FM doesn't usually put unrelated parts for multiple variants on a single sprue. It's unlikely they'd put something for the EF-4C or RF-4s on a sprue with the TISEO, since those types didn't use the TISEO.  One of the new parts is the size and shape of the rear Sparrow well; the other is shaped to fit in the front Sparrow well, but a little shorter... just like the strike cameras.

 

Seems like the most plausible guess to me.

 

[GeneK]

17 minutes ago, MoFo said:

One of the new parts is the size and shape of the rear Sparrow well; the other is shaped to fit in the front Sparrow well, but a little shorter... just like the strike cameras.

Seems like the most plausible guess to me.

Nice sleuthing, MoFo! Thanks.

 

Gene K

[SCOUT712]

17 hours ago, GeneK said:

Pictures of FineMold's beautiful builds of their slatted F-4E and F-4F from here:

 

be

 

Should be hot sellers, so I suggest pre-ordering!

 

Gene K

As just about any other manufacturer except for Revell (which made other horrible mistakes in their kit) FM put the wrong AIM-9 Launchers and Missiles into the kit. Luftwaffe Phantoms (at least from their time with NORM81 camo as depicted onwards used the LAU-7 not the Aero3B. Also Luftwaffe never used the AIM-9J/P on their F's. Only B's and L and Li's.

Btw, 38+33 as depicted was one of the 4 Flyout Phantoms from 2013. It was a ICE conversion with a black painted radome.

 

B/r

Michael

[GeneK]

3 hours ago, SCOUT712 said:

... FM put the wrong AIM-9 Launchers and Missiles into the kit. Luftwaffe Phantoms (at least from their time with NORM81 camo as depicted onwards used the LAU-7 not the Aero3B.

Amazing depth of knowledge on this forum!

 

I don't think there will be missiles in the kits as all the other FM Phantom kits (excepting the Blue Angel) don't include missiles.  Good launcher discussion, including yours, here on ARC.

 

Gene K

Edited April 26, 2025 by GeneK

[amato1969]

On 4/22/2025 at 6:53 PM, MoFo said:

Oh, and fwiw, I’m pretty sure the two long parts on the TISEO sprue are strike cameras. 

 

Ooh I will look more closely to see if this may work on an F-4C Wild Weasel build!

[JNordgren42]

A little something came in the mail today! 😊

 

It will be a while before I start on it since I need to decide on what aftermarket I want and also to come up with a plan to get it into the catapult launch config, but I'm looking forward to it. This is my first FM kit and I'm absolutely stunned with how fine the detail is. I'll have to make sure my airbrush game is on point when I paint it so I don't lose any of the engraving. 

[Wild Weasel V]

While it would be great if the parts were for strike cameras, as I'm sure neither has been done in 1/72, I don't think that they are those. Except for the KB-18 forward camera module being on Israeli Kurnasses, I don't remember seeing these versions used on F-4Es; most of the time it's the small rectangular dual pods under the wing roots.  I wonder if they will be included by Fine Molds?

 

 

 

To try and work out what the mystery parts could be, I've done some comparison of the lengths against those of the missile wells adjusting the measurements of actual kit parts from a F-4B and J to those in the picture of the lower wing and the TISEO/ARN-101 frames. The longer part I estimate to be 57,46mm in 1/72, which matches the aft missile well length; the shorter one is about 51,7mm which also matches the combined dimensions of the forward well section. I also measured the LAU-80 launcher rail for the AGM-78 Standard ARM from the Hasegawa Weapons Set IV, the kit's LAU-7 and Aero 3B Sidewinder rails; both drawn parts are longer than all of these.

(Dimensions for the drawn parts are adjusted to match the 1/72 equivalent based on measurements using a F-4B and F-4J kit wing aft missile well)

 

Based on the above and the fact that the ARN-101 'doghouse' is on the same frame, could these be in-fill pieces to allow the wings to be used for a RF-4 with the opposite side parts on a separate RF-4 specific parts frame? As measured above they would fit the 'hard wing' although I'd have thought the forward wells to be covered by a new lower nose part for the camera and SLAR housings - much like the Hasegawa solution. It'd save the cost of tooling another, fourth, lower wing section though and allow use of the parts on the F-4B/N wing frame to get a pre-block -41/-43 'thin wing' RF-4B. They could also be used to give us the final slatted RF-4Es used by Greece and Turkey - which I think would be a first without having to cross-kit to do one of these.

 

57 minutes ago, JNordgren42 said:

A little something came in the mail today! 😊

 

It will be a while before I start on it since I need to decide on what aftermarket I want and also to come up with a plan to get it into the catapult launch config, but I'm looking forward to it. This is my first FM kit and I'm absolutely stunned with how fine the detail is. I'll have to make sure my airbrush game is on point when I paint it so I don't lose any of the engraving. 

 

 

Depending on which point in the launch sequence you want to represent, CMK produced an extended nose leg https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/CMQ72225?result-token=MIkyQ

It looks as if it's now OOP but you may be able to pick up one either from the set or from someone who has the extended version as a spare.

 

Note that the F-4B kit only has the early unslotted stabilator so this is strictly only for up to about 1966; they were upgraded with the slotted type starting around late 1965. It is accurate for the VF-84 and VF-21 subjects in the box.

 

The kit should also really have Mk 5 ejection seats with the metal shroud around the parachute pack. If you want to upgrade from the kit seats, Sparkit's Mk5 seats are superb, if pricy, but are currently the only option for an early F-4 seat. Reedoak Figures have some late 1960s figures, this is one of their USN Aviators, which may do; they also have suitable deck crew for the period.

 

HTH.

 

Jonathan

[GeneK]

2 hours ago, Wild Weasel V said:

Except for the KB-18 forward camera module being on Israeli Kurnasses, I don't remember seeing these versions used on F-4Es; most of the time it's the small rectangular dual pods under the wing roots. 

 

 

 

F-4E:

 

 

If FM doesn't include these cameras, they are in all Hasegawa 1/72 Phantom kits, being on common sprue A, parts 11 and 12.  According to this ARC thread, the cameras are mounted where the Navy had catapult hooks. Left facing back, right facing forward.

 

Another great post by you, Jonathan! Thanks. 

 

Gene K

Edited April 27, 2025 by GeneK

[MoFo]

1 hour ago, Wild Weasel V said:

could these be in-fill pieces to allow the wings to be used for a RF-4 with the opposite side parts on a separate RF-4 specific parts frame?

 

I really doubt it.  That sprue has TISEO, the TISEO is exclusively for the F-4E, so that sprue was tooled specifically for the F-4E.  Fine Molds don't put parts for one variant on the sprue for a different, unrelated variant.  Like, they wouldn't tool a sprue with the F-4G nose antenna and the F-4S wing fences, or Spey engines and RF-4 nose cameras.  It just isn't the way they tend to do things. They're not like Hasegawa, where every kit comes with a slew of fin caps, parachute covers and wheel styles; Fine Molds are a lot more specific in how they tool stuff and they like to group parts by variant.

 

So the parts are obviously "something that fits in the (starboard) Sparrow wells".  Aside from the RF-4 blanking plates, I'm not 100% certain what that is... but as I've said, strike cameras seem to me to be the most convincing option I've seen.  There have been a few different styles of strike camera used (another one is discussed here: https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235103998-usaf-phantom-strike-camera/ ) which would fill the front bay.  Definitely not a 'typical' load, but FM seem to like getting into the weeds.  

[JNordgren42]

2 hours ago, Wild Weasel V said:

Depending on which point in the launch sequence you want to represent, CMK produced an extended nose leg https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/CMQ72225?result-token=MIkyQ

It looks as if it's now OOP but you may be able to pick up one either from the set or from someone who has the extended version as a spare.

 

Note that the F-4B kit only has the early unslotted stabilator so this is strictly only for up to about 1966; they were upgraded with the slotted type starting around late 1965. It is accurate for the VF-84 and VF-21 subjects in the box.

 

The kit should also really have Mk 5 ejection seats with the metal shroud around the parachute pack. If you want to upgrade from the kit seats, Sparkit's Mk5 seats are superb, if pricy, but are currently the only option for an early F-4 seat. Reedoak Figures have some late 1960s figures, this is one of their USN Aviators, which may do; they also have suitable deck crew for the period.

 

HTH.

 

Jonathan

 

Thanks for the suggestions!

 

I'm doing it in the included VF-84 scheme for the '65 Gulf of Tonkin cruise. Ideally, I'd like to depict it just before the actual shot. So yes, nose gear extended, flaps and wing control surfaces drooped, horizontal stabs canted slightly up (this may be a tough one given how they attach), bridle and hold back attached and tensioned. I've gathered decent refs for most of it, and may design and print some of the stuff I'll need myself. 

 

I'll almost certainly use Reedoak for the crew, his late 60's pilot and RIO are probably close enough for a buttoned up build, and I haven't found crew from anyone else with the exact correct equipment anyway. I used his early 80's crew for my Final Countdown F-14A and the quality was phenomenal. I'll probably also use his figures for the deck crew, I want a shooter at minimum, and probably a few others as appropriate. Again, I don't think they're perfectly period correct, but probably close enough, especially since it's in 1/72.

 

Reskit will probably be my go-to for ordinance, and I'll also probably use their exhausts as well. I haven't really decided on a loadout. I'm kind of leaning toward an all air to air MIGCAP mission, but I don't know how often VF-84 flew that profile during their Vietnam cruise. Some more research is in order there. 

Edited April 27, 2025 by JNordgren42

[SCOUT712]

19 hours ago, GeneK said:

Amazing depth of knowledge on this forum!

 

I don't think there will be missiles in the kits as all the other FM Phantom kits (excepting the Blue Angel) don't include missiles.  Good launcher discussion, including yours, here on ARC.

 

Gene K

Correct, FM developed special weapons sets 

You can look here, some comments of mine including pics about their A2A set. It's German but G-translate should help. To make a long story short. It's a hit and miss. Some missiles are really nice, some are not usable at all.

BTW, at least the inboard pylons of the FM kit are about 1,5 mm too short. I found out the hard way, when I wanted to use their beautiful moulded Navy pylons on a DS Hasegawa RF-4C to attach the equally perfect Revell F-16 ALQ-131 pods. I could not align them iaw the picture I have. Then I tried it with the Hasegawa pylons and it worked.

 

B/r

Michael

Edited April 27, 2025 by SCOUT712

[SCOUT712]

5 hours ago, JNordgren42 said:

 

I'm doing it in the included VF-84 scheme for the '65 Gulf of Tonkin cruise.

 

 I'm kind of leaning toward an all air to air MIGCAP mission, but I don't know how often VF-84 flew that profile during their Vietnam cruise. Some more research is in order there. 

Back in those days, they still flew with AIM-7 on the onboard wings. For instance ,when VF-21 bagged the first official MiGs of the Vietnam war, at least the wingman had 2 AIM-7 in the rear wells 1 und one wing (I don't remember from the top of my head which one , I'd have to check the Osprey Book) and 2xAIM-9B under the other wing. There is also a YouTube video available about Gulf of Tonkin ops of USS Midway. There you actually see one of the MiG Killers (Modex 102 IIRC), showing a MiG-17 silhouette on the spine and an AIM-7 under the right wing.

Later they tended to fly with 2 by 4 meaning 2 Sparrows in the rear wells and 4 AIM-9D. Reason, there was an electrically driven interlock for the front missile wells. The tank had to be jettisoned first before the forward missiles could be fired. If you forget it in the heat of the battle you wonder why nothing happens. Short side story, when we practiced AIM-120 engagements with the F model, the first thing after you called a commit was the AT&T check. Armament (Master arm (simulated) hot - Tanks jettison -  (Video) Tape on).

B/r

Michael

[JNordgren42]

It's going to be a while before I begin on my F-4B in earnest, but I couldn't resist doing a quick test fit. I'm extremely happy with how it all comes together, the engineering and fit are top notch. I could see this kit being a real pain to build if the tolerances weren't so tight given how structurally complex it is for such a small model, but thankfully I don't see any areas that need more than a little bit of sanding and finessing and most of it is dead on. The biggest challenge will be getting everything into the launch config.


 

[BWDenver]

9 hours ago, JNordgren42 said:

It's going to be a while before I begin on my F-4B in earnest, but I couldn't resist doing a quick test fit. 


 

What time frame are your markings going to be for?

[JNordgren42]

4 hours ago, BWDenver said:

What time frame are your markings going to be for?

I'm using the VF-84 markings in the box, which I believe are from around the time frame of the Gulf of Tonkin cruise on the Independence ('65) and for a while after. 

[Sebastijan]

Would love to build a Greek AUP F-4E - did Finemolds at any time announced that one? Is it possible to build one from any of the boxes? I guess I could scratch the bird slicers on the nose and fiddle with the instrument panel details but not sure how to tackle those intake (ECM?) pods, that are standard on Naval versions?

[BWDenver]

8 hours ago, JNordgren42 said:

I'm using the VF-84 markings in the box, which I believe are from around the time frame of the Gulf of Tonkin cruise on the Independence ('65) and for a while after. 

In '65 they had Mk.H5 seats.  Switched to Mk.H7 seats starting in April '68.  Not sure if they would do the upgrade when the birds were on the boat...

[JNordgren42]

1 hour ago, BWDenver said:

In '65 they had Mk.H5 seats.  Switched to Mk.H7 seats starting in April '68.  Not sure if they would do the upgrade when the birds were on the boat...

 

Thanks! I'm doing it in '65 and I'm probably going to use resin or 3D printed seats. It's going to be buttoned up with crew figures so minor details probably aren't that critical though. The bigger challenge will be getting the nose gear and flight surfaces in the correct config. I'll also have to scratch build the bridle and hold back, but I have decent refs for those.

[BWDenver]

2 hours ago, JNordgren42 said:

 

Thanks! I'm doing it in '65 and I'm probably going to use resin or 3D printed seats. It's going to be buttoned up with crew figures so minor details probably aren't that critical though. The bigger challenge will be getting the nose gear and flight surfaces in the correct config. I'll also have to scratch build the bridle and hold back, but I have decent refs for those.

True, but the major visual change would be the "Sugar Scoop" protecting the parachute "Horsehoe pack".  the MkH7 did away with that in favor of a plastic hard chute case.

 

Phantom seats are towards the end of page 1, Jet AC ejection seats - Jet Modeling - ARC Discussion Forums

[pollie]

On 5/20/2025 at 11:49 AM, Sebastijan said:

Would love to build a Greek AUP F-4E - did Finemolds at any time announced that one? Is it possible to build one from any of the boxes? I guess I could scratch the bird slicers on the nose and fiddle with the instrument panel details but not sure how to tackle those intake (ECM?) pods, that are standard on Naval versions?

 

Check your references, Sebastijan; although a lot of the Greek AUP Phantoms have the blisters on the intakes, there are a few without! 

 

Modifying the instrument panels in 1/72 shouldn't be too difficult, as well as adding the bird slicers. I am not aware of FineMolds announcing the AUP version. I'll think they'll address the F-4G first......

[Sebastijan]

On 5/24/2025 at 1:41 PM, pollie said:

 

Check your references, Sebastijan; although a lot of the Greek AUP Phantoms have the blisters on the intakes, there are a few without! 

 

Modifying the instrument panels in 1/72 shouldn't be too difficult, as well as adding the bird slicers. I am not aware of FineMolds announcing the AUP version. I'll think they'll address the F-4G first......

Oh thank you very much for the info - I wasn't aware of the blisters - quick photo check confirmed what you say.

[BWDenver]

On 5/24/2025 at 6:41 AM, pollie said:

Modifying the instrument panels in 1/72 shouldn't be too difficult, as well as adding the bird slicers. I am not aware of FineMolds announcing the AUP version. I'll think they'll address the F-4G first......

Navy F-4G or USAF F-4G...

[MoFo]

The cool one.  😁

[GW8345]

2 hours ago, BWDenver said:

Navy F-4G or USAF F-4G...

 

48 minutes ago, MoFo said:

The cool one.  😁

In other words..........................the Navy one.😉

[Murph]

On 5/20/2025 at 1:40 AM, JNordgren42 said:

I'm using the VF-84 markings in the box, which I believe are from around the time frame of the Gulf of Tonkin cruise on the Independence ('65) and for a while after. 

 

Early 1/72 Phantom seats are available here LINK

 

Regards,

Murph