GeneK Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 hours ago, SCOUT712 said: Too bad they did not design the clear part of the windscreen that way that the lower part is extended into the fuselage. The Airfix kit is designed that way and has both a one piece and a multi-piece canopy. So there's a spare windscreen available. Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 One more view of the wing pylon. And here is the stabilizer. This is the slated version of the two versions made. It would be interesting to see the underside. Does it also have the triangle reinforcement and what about the outer edge. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Work for this week ended at FineMolds and I think the result is nice. The separate sprue which had the pylon also has the top panel as well as the F-15 fuel tanks. I am sure next week we will see it put together also. But for the moment here is the top panel added to the after/back one piece fuselage part. Any comment on the fuselage cross section shape??? I think this image with a little ink in panel lines gives a better view of the part, its shape and of the fit of parts. So FineMolds, where is that forward fuselage??? : ) : ) : ) Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCOUT712 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 The air refueling door is certainly wrong. First of all, it looks too big and secondly, the real deal has an asymmetrical shape. I'll try to post a pic later. Cheers Scout Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 You are right in that there is a slight cut on one side of the real deal and it is asymmetrical. You are wrong in looking at a side view image of the spine. Have a closer look here with a full right angle view of the part from head on. OK this is only the mould negative but after all this is what is inprinted on plastic. : ) Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCOUT712 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 Very nice indeed. Scout Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rocketdrvr Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Definitely going to be a very nice kit! Looking forward to getting a couple at least of them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 On 6/6/2020 at 12:10 PM, Laurent said: I (and many people here I believe) would love to read it ! What publication and what issues ? I have no idea where I have that article on my visit to Zvezda presstool workshop. But I think it would be inappropriate to have it in this thread. The fact that FineMolds is showing a hell of a lot of images from the birth of this new Phantom kit gives a perfect opportunity to use them to show some technology involved in this fascinating process. OK we don’t have any CAD images but in FineMolds workshop there is a wealth of pictures from later stages, all the machinery involved and in-progress views. Lets look at the brass anodes. Brass of course is far softer and easier to work with than carving out a press tool from hard steel blocks. There are many other reasons also for using brass and an interim part. Based on broken down plans for individual future parts appropriate size brass blocks are cut, all numbered. The delicate machining work starts to produce a perfect positive part, that is, it is identical with what the would-be plastic part will look like only it is one-sided. For the reverse side of the future plastic part another anode part has be made. All the minute details are added which will / should be showing on the negative steel mould. Here is a view of before and after version. The one in the background is for the stabilizers (or whichever name you want to call them) horizontal control surfaces. Of course in this case both upper and underside versions have to be made and they have to match (perfectly). Don’t forget that between them on the steel tool there will be an extremely thin gap where the molten plastic will / should flow. Here it is after the basic shape was completed. Detailing like in this case with the intake splitter plate is made with a drill of 0.1mm diameter. The brass anode tool is complete and ready to be used to carve out hard steel surfaces. Images are from FineMolds pages! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mario krijan Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Very nice pictures!! Not big fan of Phantom but i like those pictures from machine shop. Probably Zvezda can learn from Finemolds and make panel lines and rivets like them! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 23 minutes ago, mario krijan said: Probably Zvezda can learn from Finemolds and make panel lines and rivets like them! I know that Zvezda CAN MAKE IT LIKE THIS!!!!!!!! They have all the machines and the technology to do so. I have seen it and they did produce kits to this level, have a look at the Pe-2 for example. It is a question of willingness and if they want to invest in such detailed work. With Zvezda Mi-24 it was a simple upscale of the 72nd kit with minimal cost, minimal workhours . . . But lets get back to the Phantom! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 32 minutes ago, mario krijan said: Probably Zvezda can learn from Finemolds and make panel lines and rivets like them! You're an engineer so you know that a toolshop capabilities depend on the capabilities and availabilities of the equipements. For example surface details at the base of an anode are difficult if not impossible to make using a 3-axis CNC machine. 4 or 5-axis CNC is required. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mario krijan Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 8 hours ago, Laurent said: You're an engineer so you know that a toolshop capabilities depend on the capabilities and availabilities of the equipements. For example surface details at the base of an anode are difficult if not impossible to make using a 3-axis CNC machine. 4 or 5-axis CNC is required. I agree totally!! Zvezda have capabilities to produce fine panel lines, but i think that usually rushing to finish moulds earlier.... they need to add more time to their projects. Gabor, didnt have in my hands Pe-2 kit so i cannot judge... but i tested Tamiya panel line wash in Zvezda panel in Flanker kit... and it dosent flow like in eduard MiG-21 1/72 kit. So probably surface finish on Zvezda panel kit is not same like on Eduard. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 22 minutes ago, mario krijan said: Gabor, didnt have in my hands Pe-2 kit so i cannot judge... but i tested Tamiya panel line wash in Zvezda panel in Flanker kit... and it dosent flow like in eduard MiG-21 1/72 kit. So probably surface finish on Zvezda panel kit is not same like on Eduard. At Zvezda there is no problem with machining the anode they are perfect! They have both the machines and the technology. It is what happens later! : ( The problem is that some Zvezda kits are superb while others like from a completely different manufacturer. I also have problems with 72 nd scale Flanker kits they made and with the MiG-29. After spark erosion with those anodes one needs to clean up the surface. Polish it somehow. Sometimes it is done with gentle sand blasting. One can over do this and if you look at some Zvezda surfaces you will see that. The problem is that it will not only smooth the surface after spark erosion but also obliterate some fine surface features and can make panel lines almost invisible. Exactly those panel lines and rivets which were so nicely made on the brass anode. The Zvezda Pe-2 is like if it came from another manufacturer! It is so different and delicate! But we are going off-topic here in a serious way for which in some countries one can get a life long ban! : ) : ) : ) I think we should return to the FineModels Phantom and the way it is made and leave Zvezda, its kits and what they can or cannot do to other topics. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mario krijan Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 Beacuse of this conversation i will bought this kit 😋😋😋 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Underdog Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 I LIKE IT... I LIKE IT A LOT!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 In parallel with the work on anodes tool makers prepare/ cut raw blocks of steel which will be part of the final production tool. This is not a single piece of metal but according to parts layout bunches of individual kit parts will go on smaller pieces of steel. At the end they will be placed inside a steel frame or nest, side by side to complete the production tool for a particular single sprue. The smaller steel blocks fit inside the frame like a jig-saw puzzle. The EDM machine used at FineMolds. EDM is short for Electrical Discharge Machining, there are several names to the process but they all mean the same. Spark erosion is one of them which I think truly describes the process. The official definition is: Material is removed from the work piece by a series of rapidly recurring current discharges between two electrodes, separated by a dielectric liquid and subject to an electric voltage. It is hard to show, partly because it is all done submerged in dielectric fluid and it is a fast moving process. Still the sparks can be seen, hence one of the names for this technology: spark erosion. The anode tool moves back and forth, keeping distance from the steel part but eating away the hard steel continuously. Here is the wing sprue steel mould immerged during spark erosion and one of the anodes is about to add details. Different details have their own individual anodes, so one such tool part will have several anodes for particular details. The imprint of the above (previous post) shown pylon anode for the wing pylon on the steel surface of the moulding tool. In case of this FineMolds F-4EJ Phantom II also laser engraving was used to add really fine details for example to the instrument panels. Here it is as far as I can tell is for the F-4EJ KAI version. I have to thank FineMolds for showing all the workshop images which they have shared on forums! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 3 hours ago, ya-gabor said: I have to thank FineMolds for showing all the workshop images which they have shared on forums! I have to thank you for showing all the interesting details!! Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 Hi Gene K, You are most welcome! But actually it is FM who posted all the images on their pages. It is all out there!!! I only stand accused of putting them in a row to show what is going on. This is just as my work as an aviation journalist, the story is there I only act as an intermediary to bring it to readers. Not inventing the story but simply writing it down, recording it and forwarding it. I just hope that FineMolds will continue showing progress with this kit. It is a perfect opportunity for modellers to see how those plastic sprues end up on their workbench, what it takes to make them and how it is done. Good to know that apart from me there is someone else also who finds it interesting. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wild Weasel V Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 You''re not the only one Gabor; as an engineer it's fascinating to watch this kit develop and for Fine Molds to freely share their progress. I can only imagine how this is generating extra interest for the company's newest releases. As a relatively niche manufacturer, perhaps this is part of a plan to increase their market visibility. Hopefully the interest being shown in their F-4EJ means they'll be able to link up with more distributors outside Japan creating more sales so increasing the chances of more variants. This particular picture is intriguing. The lower anode block has what appears to be an Inboard Flap. All the built up test shots and the second picture show the flaps and ailerons to be integral to the upper surfaces. Is this an insert or could there indeed be an option to remove the trailing edge and add separate parts? At teast separating the control surfaces from the upper wing shouldn't prove difficult if we have to go that route. Finally, despite the separate spine, the fuselage is specific to the gun nose variants (by this I mean the F-4E/EJ/F and G) as it correctly has the plain panel where the RAT doors are on the other versions. If there are (hopefully) more F-4s to come then there should really be a new fuselage with the RAT and, further aft, the photoflash doors for the RFs plus the right hand side chaff door on Navy jets. Maybe there'll be a little bit of scribing in our futures! 🙂 I'm really looking forward to seeing the forward fuselage, perhaps sometime this week. Jonathan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 (edited) Those two anode parts are interesting. They are not final but more a very early so to say prefabricated stage with only rough outlines machined away from the original block. I believe the forward one is for the intake splitter plate based on its shape. For the small long part next to it to the right I have no idea. If it is the intake part then the anode was later cut into two separate tools. But this is only pure speculation with no real meaning! What is important that one can see how the anode is made. Actually looking at the images I am not 100% now about the top brass part as stabilizers but I would think more the outboard wing panel. The stabilizer parts are at an angle and so should be the anode. I dont think they do any control surfaces separately (well apart from the stabilizers). But one never knows. Yes, certainly there are many differences for other Phantom versions and looking at the amount of detail and what is more important attention to fine details that FimeMolds have put into making this moulds I would think that they will make certain that if (and the IF is very important) other versions are also made then will make sure that they are as authentic as possible. I don’t think they are cutting corners in design of this kit. Look at a simple thing. The nose cone. On the KAI version there are strips on the cone. FineMolds made a separate spru for the KAI version with all the bits and pieces inlcuding a cone with the strips on its sides. Most manufacturers would give you a single nose cone and say: - for a KAI add the strips from decal - or the strips are there on plastic and they say “cut them/ sand them” Just to save cost and parts number. Best regards Gabor Edited June 14, 2020 by ya-gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted June 14, 2020 Share Posted June 14, 2020 2 hours ago, ya-gabor said: I believe the forward one is for the intake splitter plate based on its shape Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 (edited) Hmmmmmm... . Flaps are hinged at the wing bottom. Gene K Edited June 15, 2020 by GeneK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 So it is the flap surface detail anode. Good find! Never tried to zoom-in on this one. The only problem is that it does not mean that there will be a separate flap : ( : ( It is what it is: surface details anode for the flap! Have a look in my previous post with photos, the image with the wing tool. A much smaller anode is used to add details to one particular area of the tool. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 That small cut-out on the inner side of the flap is a tricky thing. On top it is going inwards, into the surface. On bottom it is not a cut-out but an extra rectangle on that edge, so what is shown on the anode is right for the bottom surface detail. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted June 15, 2020 Share Posted June 15, 2020 Continuation of tool making. Of course the anode “masters” and the smaller steel tools on their own are not enough to make the process working. There is a need to gather these individual smaller steel blocks into a complete press form for a particular sprue. The outer frame of the given production tool is made. First a raw block of steel. Now this is a big one. Appropriate size blocks are cut out from the frame where the engraved tool parts will be placed. The final production tool with both sides fitted and ready for production of kit sprues is a heavy piece! The final tool weight of course depends on the size of the sprue and in this case that it incorporates slide mould technology. It is several hundred kilograms so moving it around is not easy. I have to thank FineMolds for showing all the images which they have shared on forums. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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