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7 hours ago, Napalmakita said:

So, in the beginning, when 200 traps.  They park and the pilot n Rio both reach behind onto the tops of the ejection seats and look like they twist a knob or unplug something.  Any idea what was going on there?  

They are safe'ing their seats.

 

On the top of the seat, just behind the face curtain is a red "lever", pop it up - face curtain is locked, push it down - face curtain is released and able to be pulled. Procedure was to safe the seat after the plane was chocked n chain and just prior to shutting down the engines.

 

gru7ahead.jpg

 

The face curtain lock is that little black rectangle on the forward edge of the head rest, if you look closely you'll see the read locking lever.

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28 minutes ago, Napalmakita said:

It would have been a kind of Mad Max scenario.  Technology broken down by being trapped in time without the tech support.  Trippy.  My question was how much would it take to sink or make that Japanese fleet inoperable.  Would that first strike have been enough to do it?  

That first strike would have wiped out the entire Japanese fleet. A couple of Mk 82's into each carrier, a Harpoon into the battleships, 2 or 3

Mk 82's into the cruisers and some 20mm into the destroyers. Those ships were not designed to withstand modern weapons and the AA gunners were not trained to shot at something moving faster than 250 knots, it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel.

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3 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

That first strike would have wiped out the entire Japanese fleet. A couple of Mk 82's into each carrier, a Harpoon into the battleships, 2 or 3

Mk 82's into the cruisers and some 20mm into the destroyers. Those ships were not designed to withstand modern weapons and the AA gunners were not trained to shot at something moving faster than 250 knots, it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel.

That's kinda what I was thinking.  Thanks for the info on the seats👍

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1 hour ago, rightwinger26 said:

So I was pondering, let’s say for some reason the Nimitz didn’t return to the future, but it didn’t bring a speedy end to the war, let’s say, the attack on the Japanese Fleet was recalled, they raced for the time warp, and it snapped shut heartbreakingly close.  Sooner or later, probably sooner, our aircraft take a pounding, the ships supply system would runout, so the modern air wing would quickly turn into static displays (I get it, they could engineer more, but this more fun).  Think about the Nimitz with an uber WWII air wing on board, maybe an up/back dated AA armament, maybe painted in measure 32. It could have been its own TF.  That could be a cool what if build.

 

Read a series of books from Aussie writer John Birmingham starting with 'Weapons of Choice', World War 2.1, where a whole futuristic multi national carrier battle group is taken back to 1942 after an experiment goes wrong on a research ship in the group. There is some futuristic tech like Sea Raptors, metal storm and laser defence systems involved as well as a Marine Amphibious group involved, ie Harriers and Abrams tanks. A good read. The next 2 books go into life after the arrival and accelerated tech transfer and development and how WWII changed ( the other side also managed to get their hands on the future tech as well when not all the ships ended up in the same place).

 

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5 hours ago, rightwinger26 said:

So I was pondering, let’s say for some reason the Nimitz didn’t return to the future, but it didn’t bring a speedy end to the war, let’s say, the attack on the Japanese Fleet was recalled, they raced for the time warp, and it snapped shut heartbreakingly close.  Sooner or later, probably sooner, our aircraft take a pounding, the ships supply system would runout, so the modern air wing would quickly turn into static displays (I get it, they could engineer more, but this more fun).  Think about the Nimitz with an uber WWII air wing on board, maybe an up/back dated AA armament, maybe painted in measure 32. It could have been its own TF.  That could be a cool what if build.

There was a story posted online that outlined this scenario. I've long lost the link, but the author covered the use of missiles and guided weapons, as they'd be irreplacable in the 40s, and the US gearing up to produce ammo and ordnance that would work with the 1980s aircraft. Crew would get split up from the Nimitz and posted to ships that would incorporate things like radar systems derived from the Nimitz, and engineers and maintainers on jet engines and the like. Even an S-3 would be an incredibly fast aircraft for 1942. If I recall, the Nimitz struck the IJN force and caused severe damage, but the Japanese found the remains of a shot down aircraft and surmised it was from the future, and drastically changed their war plans. So much for knowing what would be to come. Not wanting to risk losing any of the future aircraft would limit the Nimitz's aircraft from being used in any kind of knock out blow.
He got into some of the sociological ramifications of an integrated UN ship showing up in 1941 Pearl Harbor, and the sudden wealth found by crewmen in possession of things like an early Apple computer and a Gibson electric guitar. 
The US sets up producing aircraft it can actually build in the 1940s with engines derived from data the Nimitz and her crew would have, and settle on the A4 Skyhawk as the main attack aircraft.
I've always wanted to make a back-dated A-4, 500 pound bombs on it, sporting a 1944 era scheme, stars and bars with no red in them, but i never thought of a Measure 32 Nimitz! 

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10 hours ago, GW8345 said:

That first strike would have wiped out the entire Japanese fleet. A couple of Mk 82's into each carrier, a Harpoon into the battleships, 2 or 3

Mk 82's into the cruisers and some 20mm into the destroyers. Those ships were not designed to withstand modern weapons and the AA gunners were not trained to shot at something moving faster than 250 knots, it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

Weren´t Battleships designed to take a beating with heavy artillery? I have my doubt that with their armor, they would be crippled by a singe Harpoon. Also, "only some 20mm" for a destroyer seems a bit "light" against a warship designed to fight and survive in a WW2-battle.

 

 

HAJO

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1 hour ago, Hajo L. said:

 

Weren´t Battleships designed to take a beating with heavy artillery? I have my doubt that with their armor, they would be crippled by a singe Harpoon. Also, "only some 20mm" for a destroyer seems a bit "light" against a warship designed to fight and survive in a WW2-battle.

 

 

HAJO

Battleships of the time period were armored on the top, not really the sides just above the waterline (the torpedo belt was below the waterline). The Harpoon is designed to impact the side of a vessel, just above the waterline, battleships of the period were not heavily armored there. While I agree a single Harpoon might not do the trick it would defiantly cause some damage that would severally  hamper the ships ability to function. Also, the Japanese were not known for their great damage control so one Harpoon might do the trick, if not, pop another one and that ship would have serious issues to deal with.

 

Destroyer's of the time period were not armored, they were designed for speed and maneuverability. Heck, they were vulnerable to to .50 cal, think about what modern 20mm HEI rounds would do to an un-armored vessel.

 

Also, the explosives in modern weapons are more powerful then the explosives in use at the time, a couple of GBU-10's on a capital ship would be devastating.

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They touched on it in the movie in a way, would they have renamed the ship? And if so, what to?  Think about the effect of the Manhattan Project, it probably would have been nothing more than a reverse engineering program.  I wonder if Pearl had the depth at the time for a ship with that draft, I haven’t bothered to to look yet, (and its too nice of a day to sit inside and do it now).  Could North American have retro fitted B-25s with tail hooks, thus allowing Doolittle to not need to make a one way trip, but could the landing gear have survived the landings. If so, think of the number of Chinese that wouldn’t have suffered retribution for helping downed airmen. My brain is on overdrive, this is fascinating. 

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6 minutes ago, rightwinger26 said:

They touched on it in the movie in a way, would they have renamed the ship? And if so, what to?  Think about the effect of the Manhattan Project, it probably would have been nothing more than a reverse engineering program.  I wonder if Pearl had the depth at the time for a ship with that draft, I haven’t bothered to to look yet, (and its too nice of a day to sit inside and do it now).  Could North American have retro fitted B-25s with tail hooks, thus allowing Doolittle to not need to make a one way trip, but could the landing gear have survived the landings. If so, think of the number of Chinese that wouldn’t have suffered retribution for helping downed airmen. My brain is on overdrive, this is fascinating. 

It's that whole "what if" idea that brings infinite possibilities.  What if they took the senator back to Pearl on that helo?  I've read that the d day invasion was almost stopped after the first couple hours because of the massive losses...then what would have happened.  What if one of those Tomcats flew to Pearl or the f8 recon plane landed instead of flying a pass?  Whenever my brain gets on that path I have the same thought tho...as jacked up or backwards as things might seem to me, I feel like there is a plan.  Like things went exactly the way they were supposed to.  Interesting stuff for sure but that's what makes us human..we can imagine n have convos like this.  

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6 minutes ago, Napalmakita said:

It's that whole "what if" idea that brings infinite possibilities.  What if they took the senator back to Pearl on that helo?  I've read that the d day invasion was almost stopped after the first couple hours because of the massive losses...then what would have happened.  What if one of those Tomcats flew to Pearl or the f8 recon plane landed instead of flying a pass?  

Lol, I don’t think it’s really a ‘what if’, this is a world where the USS Nimitz went through a big wiggly worm hole in a thunder storm. Sky’s the limit, lol.

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32 minutes ago, rightwinger26 said:

Lol, I don’t think it’s really a ‘what if’, this is a world where the USS Nimitz went through a big wiggly worm hole in a thunder storm. Sky’s the limit, lol.

Isn't that the point of this discussion?  It's fantasy..,it stimulates the imagination and gives opportunity to explore other possibilities and ask questions like "what if"...anyway, my point was throughout history there are tons of examples where things like weather patterns, car accidents or family illnesses have influenced a chain of events that could have gone completely differently.  I saw it on the streets as a firefighter.  No way some of what I saw should have happened the way it did.  But things line up and they do happen that way.  What if I didn't start this topic...

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Sorry, didn’t mean to sound condescending.  When I think what if, I think like historically plausible, like could Bomber Command have flown B-29’s if the war drug on (hmmmmmm).   Just a misunderstanding in definitions I guess, no malice intended buddy! I can’t help but think of totally obscure things on this, like what would 1941 bluejackets have thought when they first walked into a berthing and saw a coffin rack.....mind.....blown.  How would modern aircrew do learning how to do learning how to land using real paddles.

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2 hours ago, rightwinger26 said:

Sorry, didn’t mean to sound condescending.  When I think what if, I think like historically plausible, like could Bomber Command have flown B-29’s if the war drug on (hmmmmmm).   Just a misunderstanding in definitions I guess, no malice intended buddy! I can’t help but think of totally obscure things on this, like what would 1941 bluejackets have thought when they first walked into a berthing and saw a coffin rack.....mind.....blown.  How would modern aircrew do learning how to do learning how to land using real paddles.

I appreciate that.  Communicating over the internet mixed with my tendency to get defensive.  All good👍  Hmmm..could all modern pilots fly back then?  Take away the tech and it's a different game right?  

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3 hours ago, Napalmakita said:

I appreciate that.  Communicating over the internet mixed with my tendency to get defensive.  All good👍  Hmmm..could all modern pilots fly back then?  Take away the tech and it's a different game right?  

From my experience, all Naval Aviators back then (1980 time frame) could fly anything from the 40's. They didn't have all that fancy tech back then like they do know so back then, there were stick n rudder aviators, hell, to my knowledge they never even used the ACLS when they were coming back onboard.

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11 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

From my experience, all Naval Aviators back then (1980 time frame) could fly anything from the 40's. They didn't have all that fancy tech back then like they do know so back then, there were stick n rudder aviators, hell, to my knowledge they never even used the ACLS when they were coming back onboard.

That's true...dam I forgot how old that film was and was thinking about today's tech.  Stuck in my own time warp😳

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I would feel like as the modern air wing was used up through attrition, probably because of supply, the air crew would be rotated to Pensacola for flight training, maybe not from scratch, but at least platform specific.  I would just think as a contemporary air wing came on board, there would be zero need to put someone in a piece of machinery they’d never used, with life or death consequences, when they would already have their full compliment of qualified personnel assigned.  Things were bad at that point, but I don’t think we’re at the ‘Heres the keys, good luck’ point, lol.  

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18 hours ago, GW8345 said:

Battleships of the time period were armored on the top, not really the sides just above the waterline (the torpedo belt was below the waterline).

 

The torpedo belt is separate and different from the armor belt, which extends a number of feet above the water line. A Harpoon striking just above the waterline of an Iowa class BB would first have to pass through the outer hull and then would strike the armor belt at its thickest point (about 12" of hardened armor steel). It wouldn't even make a dent. A missile striking from above, i.e. vertically, would first pass through the bomb deck, an inch or two in thickness, but then impact on the armor deck of four or more inches of armor.  The only effective strikes would be against the superstructure which is only lightly armored. Such attacks would reek havoc but would leave the more vital parts of the ship untouched. Think of the Bismarck which was still afloat, though admittedly out of action, after repeated pounding from Rodney's 16" and King George V's 14" guns, was still afloat. They had closed distance so much that their firing trajectory was essentially flat and they were hitting the main armor belt which withstood most of the hits.

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4 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

The torpedo belt is separate and different from the armor belt, which extends a number of feet above the water line. A Harpoon striking just above the waterline of an Iowa class BB would first have to pass through the outer hull and then would strike the armor belt at its thickest point (about 12" of hardened armor steel). It wouldn't even make a dent. A missile striking from above, i.e. vertically, would first pass through the bomb deck, an inch or two in thickness, but then impact on the armor deck of four or more inches of armor.  The only effective strikes would be against the superstructure which is only lightly armored. Such attacks would reek havoc but would leave the more vital parts of the ship untouched. Think of the Bismarck which was still afloat, though admittedly out of action, after repeated pounding from Rodney's 16" and King George V's 14" guns, was still afloat. They had closed distance so much that their firing trajectory was essentially flat and they were hitting the main armor belt which withstood most of the hits.

So your saying this thing could go a few rounds?  I guess three wouldn't be much of a chance for the Japanese fleet to counter punch..still interesting

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6 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

The torpedo belt is separate and different from the armor belt, which extends a number of feet above the water line. A Harpoon striking just above the waterline of an Iowa class BB would first have to pass through the outer hull and then would strike the armor belt at its thickest point (about 12" of hardened armor steel). It wouldn't even make a dent. A missile striking from above, i.e. vertically, would first pass through the bomb deck, an inch or two in thickness, but then impact on the armor deck of four or more inches of armor.  The only effective strikes would be against the superstructure which is only lightly armored. Such attacks would reek havoc but would leave the more vital parts of the ship untouched. Think of the Bismarck which was still afloat, though admittedly out of action, after repeated pounding from Rodney's 16" and King George V's 14" guns, was still afloat. They had closed distance so much that their firing trajectory was essentially flat and they were hitting the main armor belt which withstood most of the hits.

Remember, we are talking about attacking the Japanese Fleet that was part of the Pearl Harbor Operation, not an Iowa class BB or the Bismarck (which was at the bottom of the Atlantic when Pearl Harbor was attacked).

 

Two Japanese BB's participated in the Pearl Harbor operation, the Hiei and the Kirishima, both were actually battle cruisers so they weren't as armored as you think. The Hiei and Kirishima deck armor was only about 2.75" and the sides were only 8".

 

Again, the warhead's and explosives used in 1980 were vastly superior to what was used in 1941, you have to look at the brisance of the explosives used, they are vastly different.

 

Below is some penetration data for a British 14 inch BB shells used in the late 30's and during WWII. If a 14 inch shell (what the armor on the Hiei and Kirishima was designed to stop) could penetrate a 15 inch armor belt at 20,000 yards what is 8 inches of armor going to do against a Harpoon traveling at approx 750 ft/s at the point of impact with a 500 lb high explosive warhead?

 

(NOTE: the muzzle velocity below is measured at the end of the barrel, not at the point of impact, the round will bleed velocity during flight, the longer the round travels, the more velocity bleed off).

 

Penetration at a muzzle velocity of 2483 ft/s, guns with new linings or with no significant wear:

Belt

729 mm (28.7 in) @ 0 m (0yd)

531 mm (20.9 in) @ 9,144 m (10,000 yd)

452 mm (17.8 in) @ 13,716 m (15,000 yd)

389 mm (15.3 in) @ 18,288 m (20,000 yd)

 

Decks

33 mm (1.3 in) @ 9,144 m (10,000 yd)

51 mm (2.0 in) @ 13,716 m (15,000 yd)

69 mm (2.7 in) @ 18,288 m (20,000 yd)

89 mm (3.5 in) @ 22,860 m (25,000 yd)

107 mm (4.2 in) @ 25,603 m (28,000 yd)

         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         

 

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7 hours ago, Mstor said:

 The only effective strikes would be against the superstructure which is only lightly armored. Such attacks would reek havoc but would leave the more vital parts of the ship untouched. 

 

That was what my thought was. 

 

You could probably do a hail Mary and try and drop a few Mavericks down the smokestack and try to damage the ship that way.

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2 minutes ago, Spook498 said:

 

That was what my thought was. 

 

You could probably do a hail Mary and try and drop a few Mavericks down the smokestack and try to damage the ship that way.

They used to kill swamp rats like that back on tattoine...i think that was the line in Star Wars.  I was just thinking, I wonder what the attack plan would have been...what would the tactics for that strike look like?  Blow the hell out of em would have been somwhere on the list I suppose

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How long could the modern air wing could have remained effective after the initial strike had been recalled?  Let’s say for arguments sake the Japanese managed to slip away, disperse, whatever, and it took some time to bring another large scale contact involving lots of capital ships that could be damaged, would the modern aircraft still be effective by that point?  Would too many aircraft be NMC for parts, would the ship be too low on remaining JP5, there’s a million obscure reasons why the aircraft could be replaced with contemporary aircraft, making harpoons and such pretty much useless.

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You know, you guys are focusing on the technology being stuck in the past, but here is another scenario, that did play out in the movie with a better what if....

 

Remember that the ship wasnt left behind but CAG was. He would be the next best thing. We dont know if he went on to military service or not. Realistically, he could have as his age, while older, wasnt a factor. But how could he explain his military history to a group of people that has never heard of 70% of what he knows? He could play it off that he learned to fly his dads crop duster, and make a few things up along the way. But now he is flying an aircraft that has a less than 1 to 1 thrust/weight ratio. Basic ACM concepts are similar but he has no platform in which to demonstrate his ability that has the performance. And his flying skill in even the hottest aircraft of the time, is less than the guys he would be performing for, because they would have had more seat time in that aircraft.

 

So chances are he becomes a government contractor and dabbles in areas where his expertise can be "explored and discovered" without raising too much suspicion. But now, he has taken 40 years of technology and gone back in time, to give it a 40 year headstart. The come away from that is, that had he NOT gone back in time, how much less technology would the military have by 1980? Did he exploit his knowledge, or did he keep it to himself and feed it out as the time in history came about, so the sidewinder missle would be developed in the 50s instead of the 40s?

 

The other thing is that while he was a knowledgeable, experienced and educated man,  he probably wasnt a subject matter expert in any one field. He knew the major components of a jet engine, but he couldnt tell you specifically and exactly how each part fit, where it went and so forth. He knew a missle has a seeker, warhead, guidance and propulsion, but does he knew exactly how the seeker sends information to the guidance system? So while he has the advantage of "knowing" about 40 years of technology, how much of that can he actually implement with first hand knowledge? Its not like he went back with blueprints in hand.

 

I think he had enough knowledge to guide technology until the technology could actually be developed. Remember, things like circuit boards were still 15-20 years away, a main component in missle and "smart" technology. As noted in the film, he had implemented many of the designs that went into the construction of the ship (presumably Nimitz class carriers) so maybe that is what he focused on? 

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17 minutes ago, rightwinger26 said:

...... and it took some time to bring another large scale contact involving lots of capital ships that could be damaged, would the modern aircraft still be effective by that point?  

 

If history held true, the next big engagement would be the Battle of Coral Sea, and then Midway. You are looking at 6-7 months. There was possibly at least one history book on the ship that could tell you where the ships had homeported after Pearl Harbor, it wouldnt have been a stretch to catch the carriers in port somewhere between December and May. With modern ASW capability, the carrier could have gotten to 600 miles (aka Jimmy Doolittle) and launched a strike. Knock out 5 or 6 carriers, and both Coral Sea and Midway wouldnt have happened. At that point the history is altered enough that the original narrative timeline becomes useless.

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