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19 minutes ago, Spook498 said:

 

If history held true, the next big engagement would be the Battle of Coral Sea, and then Midway. You are looking at 6-7 months. There was possibly at least one history book on the ship that could tell you where the ships had homeported after Pearl Harbor, it wouldnt have been a stretch to catch the carriers in port somewhere between December and May. With modern ASW capability, the carrier could have gotten to 600 miles (aka Jimmy Doolittle) and launched a strike. Knock out 5 or 6 carriers, and both Coral Sea and Midway wouldnt have happened. At that point the history is altered enough that the original narrative timeline becomes useless.

Interesting point.  But by the end of Midway, the Japanese had lost 5 carriers and one severely damaged if memory serves, so the numbers are about the same in roughly the same time frame, just the details are different and the Americans wouldn’t have lost Lexington and Yorktown.  But that’s not to say the US couldn’t have lost a carrier(s) someplace else in this strange universe.  The IJN was still immense following Midway at least in number of ships and aircraft.   
This makes me think of an interesting idea.  If their carriers were in port like you propose, were their aircrew on board, if they weren’t, the Japanese wouldn’t have had the large number of experienced aircrew decimated like they did at Midway.

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39 minutes ago, rightwinger26 said:

 But by the end of Midway, the Japanese had lost 5 carriers and one severely damaged if memory serves, so the numbers are about the same in roughly the same time frame, just the details are different and the Americans wouldn’t have lost Lexington and Yorktown.

 

While that is a true statement, had the IJN lost the carriers prior to CS and Midway, would they have been able to launch an effective landing force to take Midway anyways? They definitely would have the the troop ship and escort ship capability, but after the carriers, would it not make sense to take out other capital ships of opportunity to prevent shore bombardment?

 
This makes me think of an interesting idea.  If their carriers were in port like you propose, were their aircrew on board, if they weren’t, the Japanese wouldn’t have had the large number of experienced aircrew decimated like they did at Midway.

 

Chances are they would have been at their home aerodrome. So they would have the experienced pilots and the aircraft, but without a way to transport them to battle, I dont think they could island hop far enough out into the Pacific to be effective. The IJA with their longer range bombers could. With out a Pacific map infront of me, I dont know the mileages involved if the Japanese could get any closer than maybe Wake Island. Between transport ships and long range bombers, plus the headstart they had in the Pacific by 1941, they would still have had an enormous empire. They would still have an effective submarine force as well. It leads me to think that the island hopping campaign by the US would have started maybe a year earlier and progressed more or less in the fashion that it did. Within a 1 year time frame from Pearl Harbor, the airwing on the Nimitz would be mostly DOA due to a lack of parts and acceptable fuel sources, and quite possibly even munitions.

 

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So if the carriers were inoperable but the pilots and enough planes were serviceable,  that would have to have changed the strategy/impact of the island hopping campaign, yes?  I'm not a historian by any measure and not familiar enough with the geography...just spit balling

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This purports to be the Empire at its largest in 1942. After that she started giving up territory. The internet tells me a Zeke could fly 1800 miles with a drop tank. (Im not researching all of the IJN aircraft like a Kate, Val, Jill, etc...) Considering that Wake Island was attacked the same day as Pearl Harbor, the Nimitz would have to have sent a force from Pearl Harbor to Wake, which was 2000 miles away. Which means that Wake would have likely fallen anyways.

 

It leads me to think that if the IJN lost carriers before Coral Sea, the battle would still have more or less continued on as it did. Lacking spares and fuel of the jet aircraft, the Nimitz would have become less effective, but still very potent to be able to carry WWII aircraft. With a reduced forward ASW presence, the USN would be less likely to forge towards the Japanese mainland with Nimitz, so IJN carrier production after mid 1942 would have carried on as normal.

 

 

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If I was playing this game from the role of Admiral Yamamoto, and I lost carriers from aircraft from the Nimitz, whether modern aircraft or if I had intel that they came from some new, unknown ship, I would completely rethink my strategy, at least until I knew what I was up against.  Or, what if the American counter strike had happened during the Indian Ocean raid when Shikoku, Zuikaku, Akagi, Soryu, and Hiryu weren’t in Japanese waters from the end of March to like mid April I believe, so the couldn’t have been sunk.  So Coral Sea may never have happened.  But at the same time Japanese strength may not have been affected. I do completely agree that with WWII aircraft on board, it would be a much less effective ship, but still pretty formidable.  Some portions of the ship would be pretty much useless, like anything that relied on satellites, and even its nuclear power could be a problem early in the war when all available escorts were treaty era ships that wouldn’t have had the range in a lot of cases or the speed in the cases of the battleships to keep up, pretty much reducing the the ship to a really big WWII ear ship.   I feel like after the initial shock, the Japanese might have been able to figure out there was only one, and maybe tried some small attempts to test its capabilities.

Edited by rightwinger26
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4 hours ago, GW8345 said:

Below is some penetration data for a British 14 inch BB shells used in the late 30's and during WWII. If a 14 inch shell (what the armor on the Hiei and Kirishima was designed to stop) could penetrate a 15 inch armor belt at 20,000 yards what is 8 inches of armor going to do against a Harpoon traveling at approx 750 ft/s at the point of impact with a 500 lb high explosive warhead?

 

A 14" armor piercing round weighs close to a ton and at impact is traveling close to Mach 2. It is made of hardened steel designed to penetrate armor. I wasn't aware of which "BBs" were present in the Japanese fleet. I have not seen any stats of Harpoon HE warheads against hardened BB armor. That said, the Harpoon would probably cause significant damage to a ship with battlecruiser level armoring, but would not necessarily knock one out of commission. If a Harpoon can do a popup attack and strike the superstructure, it would probably do enough damage, start enough fires and kill enough crew to knock it out. 

I was basically taking issue with your original blanket statement that "Battleships of the time period were armored on the top, not really the sides just above the waterline (the torpedo belt was below the waterline). The Harpoon is designed to impact the side of a vessel, just above the waterline, battleships of the period were not heavily armored there." There many different designs when it comes to armoring battleships, but all of them provided protection for strikes around the waterline.  The torpedo belt was a feature designed to provide protection from torpedoes striking below the waterline. It is separate and not the same as the armor designed to protect against battleship level guns.

P.S. If the Hiei and Kirishima were designed as battlecruisers, their armor was designed to protect against heavy cruisers. It was originally not the job of battlecruisers to engage battleships directly. They were designed to outmatch any cruiser the enemy could throw at it. Fast enough to catch and with guns guaranteed to destroy any cruiser. As a secondary role they were designed to scout for the primary battle fleet. They were not meant to engage in the line of battle. Of course, ultimately, they were used to engage BBs and suffered greatly when they did.

Edited by Mstor
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On 4/28/2020 at 5:37 PM, rightwinger26 said:

So I was pondering, let’s say for some reason the Nimitz didn’t return to the future, but it didn’t bring a speedy end to the war, let’s say, the attack on the Japanese Fleet was recalled, they raced for the time warp, and it snapped shut heartbreakingly close.  Sooner or later, probably sooner, our aircraft take a pounding, the ships supply system would runout, so the modern air wing would quickly turn into static displays (I get it, they could engineer more, but this more fun).  Think about the Nimitz with an uber WWII air wing on board, maybe an up/back dated AA armament, maybe painted in measure 32. It could have been its own TF.  That could be a cool what if build.

 

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2 hours ago, Spook498 said:

... Lacking spares and fuel of the jet aircraft, the Nimitz would have become less effective...

Jet fuel would be the easiest problem to handle.  JP-4 isn't all that different from automotive diesel.  The trick would be to convince the War Powers Board to approve designating a refinery to specialize in JP-4 for the small fleet of aircraft that would use it.  Weapons replenishment and replacement air crew, now there's the trick.

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2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Jet fuel would be the easiest problem to handle.  JP-4 isn't all that different from automotive diesel.  The trick would be to convince the War Powers Board to approve designating a refinery to specialize in JP-4 for the small fleet of aircraft that would use it.  Weapons replenishment and replacement air crew, now there's the trick.

You could set up  intruders n corsair to carry 250 or 500lb bombs of the day..or whatever they were , but maintaining engines n such would be a problem I guess

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7 minutes ago, Tank said:

Why slug it, before IJN can figure out what to do next, sail to Tokyo and take out the Emperor.   

Oooh,  now that's the philosophical issue that popped into my head while watching the movie.  If your in command of nimitz that day, what do you do?  Do you alter the course of 'history'?  Would you send the attack?  

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2 minutes ago, Napalmakita said:

Oooh,  now that's the philosophical issue that popped into my head while watching the movie.  If your in command of nimitz that day, what do you do?  Do you alter the course of 'history'?  Would you send the attack?  


Anything you do in that time period alters history and you will be doing something. Not sure you can stop the attack over all but you take out the carriers from flight ops which takes out their air wings. While IJN is trying to it out what happened, sail to Tokyo and level the Emperor’s Palace and HQ. Then sail and attack Berlin before the German’s know and understand our super weapon. Short precision strikes before modern air supplies run out, maximizing the resources. 

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Do carriers carry nukes? I mean, I know they have in the past as the Navy had contingencies for using nukes including a bomber designed to carry them, but for the sake of the discussion, during whatever time frame we are discussing, either the 80s (when the movie was filmed) or the present. If so, well there's another option on the table. To save millions of lives do we nuke Tokyo and Berlin and call it a day?

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I’m working on a scenario, nothing special, or highly detailed, just a few paragraphs, but plausible.  But, right now I’m a watching tv, so it might be a day or two before I do this.  Don’t get your hopes up, I’m sure this will be full of holes, lol.   So far by August 9th, 1942, nothing much has changed other than names and dates.

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32 minutes ago, Mstor said:

Do carriers carry nukes? I mean, I know they have in the past as the Navy had contingencies for using nukes including a bomber designed to carry them, but for the sake of the discussion, during whatever time frame we are discussing, either the 80s (when the movie was filmed) or the present. If so, well there's another option on the table. To save millions of lives do we nuke Tokyo and Berlin and call it a day?

That's what I was thinking..tactical nukes.  I know the a4 could carry one center line, that's why it sits high in the front I believe.  There is/was always a Marine unit responsible for guarding nuke weapons on board...that's what I was told on the Midway tour...so I'm voting yes, they had nukes.  

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Ummmm....    miss the trip home wormhole storm?.. WWII should be over by Christmas.  Nimitz carries B-61 FUFO gravity bombs,  set one to 330kt and the entire Japanese strike force is gone on the 8th of December, assuming they didn't scatter after the attack.  On the 9th Tokyo is gone, including the Emperor.  You then have to wait a few days for the carrier to get close enough to send a couple of refueling planes and an A-6E to Berlin, and it's all over.   If you want your A-6E back you have to wait a few more days so it doesn't have to land at RAF Charmy Down, but if the Nimitz went through the Panama canal in December of '41, you might not even have to bomb Berlin, the German spies and news of what happened to Tokyo and the Japanese fleet might actually have been enough to give Hitler pause.  Imagine a world were he at least kept Germany after giving the rest of Europe back, now that would be weird...

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2 minutes ago, Curiosity said:

This is what happens when you type to slowly, someone else says exactly what you were going to say, but faster...🙄

 

Whooosh....and that's all she wrote

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Posted (edited)

So the strike on the Pearl Harbor attack force is recalled, just like in the movie, and a dash is made for the worm hole.  But at the last moment, heart breakingly close it snaps shut, trapping the ship in 1941.  Ironically, at the same time, a fire broke out in the ships library, incinerating the Encyclopedia Brittanica and all of its knowledge of dates and times of WWII. In the time it takes the ships leadership to figure out what to do now, the Japanese had already turned west and headed back towards Japan, totally clueless to the presence of the Nimitz.  Not going to get into details, cause I'm not trying to write a novel or anything, the ship gets revealed to the US government, and its decided to us it and its modern air wing in an attack on mainland Japan while the modern aircraft are still functional before the supply system breaks down.  Plans for the Doolittle raid are drastically altered and replaced with the Nimitz, figuring the modern aircraft can pack more of a punch and can return to the ship instead of a one way trip.  The attack is carried out with great success, no loss of us aircraft, but just like in the Doolittle raid, a pickett ship spotted the Nimitz, and reported it retiring toward Hawaii, and the modern aircraft were widely reported.  The Japanese now know something is up, but not exactly what, so when Kido Butai returns from the Indian Ocean raid, the Coral Sea operation is still allowed to continue because of the advanced stage of planning, but Midway is completely cancelled, with no date set to revisit it until this new ship can be assessed.  The results of Coral Sea were basically the same as what historically happened, because the forces present were the same.  Nimitz was in Mare Island being retro fitted to begin being able to support contemporary aircraft because the modern airing was starting to become ineffective.  Remove Midway from the historical record, the Japanese never attempted it, but their advance through the Solomons did, as well as Operation Watchtower.  On the afternoon of August 8th, Nimitz, now with a contemporary air wing, was operating north of Tulagi with one heavy cruise and four destroyers, conducting flight operations for ground support.   That night, she was moved through channel to the west between Toulagi and Santa Isabel northwest of Savo Island so her surface radar could be used as early warning.  There were three American heavy cruisers patrolling north east of Savo.  Early in the morning on August 9th, four Japanese heavy cruisers and 10 destroyers were heading down the Slot toward the southeast when the Americans picked them up on radar.  The Japanese soon picked them up with their superior night optics, identified the 'ship' and turned towards it.  They broke into two divisions.  The Nimitz and her escorts turned to the north to make for the channel as fast as possible, knowing the American destroyers and the cruiser were no match for the Japanese in night fighting surface actions, and that their torpedos were still far inferior to the long lance.  Plus, the Japanese still did not know about the three cruisers masked by the Island.  As they turned north,  the Japanese had two heavy cruisers and five destroyers port and starboard and slightly to the rear.  They focused all their efforts on attacking the Nimitz, and bracketed here with full spreads of torpedos.  The long lance, capable of traveling at 50 knots, could not be outrun in the narrow space between the Japanese and the coast of Tulagi.  As she was maneuvering, one torpedo got luck at hit a rudder, jamming, and causing secondary damage to two screws.  The Japanese ships that attacked to on starboard side never saw the three American cruisers until it was too late, and suffered heavily.           Ok, I'm tired, that's all I've got, I'm not even gonna proof read.  Tear it apart, lol.

Edited by rightwinger26
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Posted (edited)

A fire in the ship's library is tough, but plenty of WWII knowledge among the officers.  Not that big a hindrance.

 

With picket ships, submarines, and air patrols, could the Enterprise safely get within strike distance of Tokyo?  Hornet was spotted several hundred miles out to sea.

Edited by Slartibartfast
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18 hours ago, rightwinger26 said:

So the strike on the Pearl Harbor attack force is recalled, just like in the movie, and a dash is made for the worm hole.  But at the last moment, heart breakingly close it snaps shut, trapping the ship in 1941.  Ironically, at the same time, a fire broke out in the ships library, incinerating the Encyclopedia Brittanica and all of its knowledge of dates and times of WWII. In the time it takes the ships leadership to figure out what to do now, the Japanese had already turned west and headed back towards Japan, totally clueless to the presence of the Nimitz.  Not going to get into details, cause I'm not trying to write a novel or anything, the ship gets revealed to the US government, and its decided to us it and its modern air wing in an attack on mainland Japan while the modern aircraft are still functional before the supply system breaks down.  Plans for the Doolittle raid are drastically altered and replaced with the Nimitz, figuring the modern aircraft can pack more of a punch and can return to the ship instead of a one way trip.  The attack is carried out with great success, no loss of us aircraft, but just like in the Doolittle raid, a pickett ship spotted the Nimitz, and reported it retiring toward Hawaii, and the modern aircraft were widely reported.  The Japanese now know something is up, but not exactly what, so when Kido Butai returns from the Indian Ocean raid, the Coral Sea operation is still allowed to continue because of the advanced stage of planning, but Midway is completely cancelled, with no date set to revisit it until this new ship can be assessed.  The results of Coral Sea were basically the same as what historically happened, because the forces present were the same.  Nimitz was in Mare Island being retro fitted to begin being able to support contemporary aircraft because the modern airing was starting to become ineffective.  Remove Midway from the historical record, the Japanese never attempted it, but their advance through the Solomons did, as well as Operation Watchtower.  On the afternoon of August 8th, Nimitz, now with a contemporary air wing, was operating north of Tulagi with one heavy cruise and four destroyers, conducting flight operations for ground support.   That night, she was moved through channel to the west between Toulagi and Santa Isabel northwest of Savo Island so her surface radar could be used as early warning.  There were three American heavy cruisers patrolling north east of Savo.  Early in the morning on August 9th, four Japanese heavy cruisers and 10 destroyers were heading down the Slot toward the southeast when the Americans picked them up on radar.  The Japanese soon picked them up with their superior night optics, identified the 'ship' and turned towards it.  They broke into two divisions.  The Nimitz and her escorts turned to the north to make for the channel as fast as possible, knowing the American destroyers and the cruiser were no match for the Japanese in night fighting surface actions, and that their torpedos were still far inferior to the long lance.  Plus, the Japanese still did not know about the three cruisers masked by the Island.  As they turned north,  the Japanese had two heavy cruisers and five destroyers port and starboard and slightly to the rear.  They focused all their efforts on attacking the Nimitz, and bracketed here with full spreads of torpedos.  The long lance, capable of traveling at 50 knots, could not be outrun in the narrow space between the Japanese and the coast of Tulagi.  As she was maneuvering, one torpedo got luck at hit a rudder, jamming, and causing secondary damage to two screws.  The Japanese ships that attacked to on starboard side never saw the three American cruisers until it was too late, and suffered heavily.           Ok, I'm tired, that's all I've got, I'm not even gonna proof read.  Tear it apart, lol.

Fascinating story! Except the part about Mare Island, LOL! I live near there....there's NO WAY a Nimitz class would fit into the Carquinez Straits. Hunters Point Naval Shipyard, on the other hand...

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Sure, with tankers extending the range of your attack aircraft to 1000 miles plus, you're beyond their land based support, as if that even matters, ASW capabilities of the helicopters and Vikings would comfortably eliminate submarine threat, aircraft are just not a concern,  the CIWS would dispatch any would be kamikaze before he got close enough (so no, they didn't have to splash the Zero's), and a couple of A6's with harpoons would kill or disable anything including the Yamato which would be easily found by the E2C's.  Once over Japan, you only need to drop a few B-61's, and tell them the Russians are coming, and they quit.  Don't forget, actually dropping the A-bomb's on them (and not killing the Emperor) had nothing to do with actually ending the war.  You have to tell them the Soviets are coming for them....

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, picknpluck said:

Fascinating story! Except the part about Mare Island, LOL! I live near there....there's NO WAY a Nimitz class would fit into the Carquinez Straits. Hunters Point Naval Shipyard, on the other hand...

I thought about that after I hit the save button, but oh well, nobody’s perfect.  I should have said Bremerton or someplace like that, I know better, but it was late, lol

Edited by rightwinger26
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