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2 hours ago, Curiosity said:

Don't forget, actually dropping the A-bomb's on them (and not killing the Emperor) had nothing to do with actually ending the war.  You have to tell them the Soviets are coming for them....

Actually, dropping the A-bomb and not targeting/killing the Emperor had everything to do with ending the war, if we hadn't dropped the bombs on them they won't have surrendered.

 

Also, Russia did not declare war on Japan until Aug 9th, after the second bomb had been dropped (kind of like your wife telling you to clean your room after you already did it). Russia knew they won't have to do any fighting and would be able to take over land from the Japanese so threatening Japan with war with Russia was never a factor.

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Arguable, The Soviets had killed maybe 2 million German soldiers by that time, what had we (I'm a Brit) in the west had killed maybe 250K soldiers and as many civilians,  The Japanese were not afraid of their cities being destroyed, LaMay had done an excellent job of raising Tokyo to the ground by fire bombing it.  The Japanese were afraid of a land war with 6 million Soviet troops who treated their enemies far worse than the U.S. or British ever did.  (which when you think about some of the shoot the British have done is actually saying something!)  Don't drink the american cool-aid, the A Bomb didn't end the war, that's what the U.S. has been saying for 75 years because they needed an excuse to show the Russians what it could do.  I don't disagree with them doing it, I just wish people would accept the less than heroic reasons that they actually did it.  But hindsight is 20/20, and it's not worth getting upset about, as long as no one does it again.....

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Sure, the A-Bomb didn't end the war, and all the planning for operations Olympic and Coronet was just to give the US military something to do while waiting for the Japanese to cry "uncle".  It wasn't like the people would be fanatical or anything -- nobody would be crazy enough to fly their planes into ships, or propose "The Glorious Death of One Hundred Million" for civilians to commit suicide rather than be captured by Americans.  Oh, wait.......

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  • 2 weeks later...

Not sure if this is old news,  but....

Look at 1:34 in the clip. Victory 203 looks like it has 2 rising sun kill marks just below the windscreen. 

I usually choose the low-vis gray schemes but this would make we want to build an F-14 just for those kill marks (if that's what they are).

 

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10 hours ago, jrbm said:

Not sure if this is old news,  but....

Look at 1:34 in the clip. Victory 203 looks like it has 2 rising sun kill marks just below the windscreen. 

I usually choose the low-vis gray schemes but this would make we want to build an F-14 just for those kill marks (if that's what they are).

 

 

It does. At one time I had a picture saved of it on the ramp, and you can clearly see the two flags under the canopy rail.

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Dealing with hypotheticals here, continuing with the theme of the movie; how many modern aircraft carriers would it have taken to win the war in the pacific, or how many F-14s?

 

1 modern CV and a squadron each of F-14s, A-6s and A-7s perhaps?  (Keeping with the movie's time frame).

 

Geoff M

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I don't think a single CV could do all that much.  I also don't think 10 could do it.  They could surely deal a lot of damage but it took two A-bombs and Russia entering the war against Japan for the Emperor to give up.

Edited by Slartibartfast
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Slartibartfast, don't you think the 20+   B-61 FUFO (dial a yield) bombs would defer them?  max is what? 330Kt that's more than 20x Fat Man and Little Boy each.  Drop a few of them at the beginning of the war and that's got to change their outlook pretty quickly.

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More fun facts...  {SPOILER AHEAD}

 

After the F-14 lands near the beginning of the movie, the camera angle switches to a shot from the island.  As the jet taxis out of the landing area, it can be seen that "203" is painted on the flaps, but "200" is painted on the nose. -> YouTube Clip 1

 

At the end of the credits, there is an in-cockpit shot of someone wearing a VF-84 helmet.   In the visor of the helmet, you can see the reflection of a A-6 Intruder windscreen.  Several in-cockpit shots were done in the cockpit of a A-6 Intruder. -> YouTube Clip 2

 

These things were pointed out to me by others. Once you've seen them, your eye always catches them next time you watch the movie.

 

Bonus non-aviation fact...

The radio equipment that the senator uses to contact Pearl Harbor are in a bogus radio configuration.   There are 2 radios that operate on different bandwidths, a power supply and speaker and they aren't even connected together.   The power supply is just there so that the orange "receive" light on the RT-524 stays "on".  (Imagine putting a rotary phone, cordless phone, and flip-phone on the table.)  They also wouldn't work inside the giant steel faraday cage that is a warship.  More Hollywood fudgery?  

 

Edited by John B
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On 5/2/2020 at 12:37 AM, GW8345 said:

Actually, dropping the A-bomb and not targeting/killing the Emperor had everything to do with ending the war, if we hadn't dropped the bombs on them they won't have surrendered.

 

Also, Russia did not declare war on Japan until Aug 9th, after the second bomb had been dropped (kind of like your wife telling you to clean your room after you already did it). Russia knew they won't have to do any fighting and would be able to take over land from the Japanese so threatening Japan with war with Russia was never a factor.

 

This is not accurate. The Soviet Union certainly did do fighting - and a lot of it - in those two weeks between 9 and 20 August when they invaded Manchuria. They lost about 12,000 soldiers in the campaign and another 25,000 wounded, although it was still a lot better than the Japanese who were pretty much rolled over by the Soviets. Invasions don't start overnight: The Soviet planning started in March 1945 and they started shifting equipment in April. At that time, Japan's surrender was not obvious at all - April was when the Okinawa invasion started - so the Japan conflict was still a long way from concluded. The Soviets continued shifting equipment between May and July as the invasion plans were finalized and the directive was that everything should be in place by 25 July. The actual Soviet invasion started before the second bomb was dropped - it was literally by a few hours, but by then, and even before the Hiroshima bombing happened, it was clear they were going to invade anyway as their campaign already had 4 months to build up momentum. The Manchurian campaign was a fascinating military conclusion to the war: A good summary was written by David Glantz for the Combat Studies Institute of the US Army Command and General Staff College, titled: "August Storm: The Soviet 1945 Strategic Offensive in Manchuria". I believe it is available online.

 

The Manchurian campaign certainly did have an impact on the Japanese surrender, as noted by most if not all serious historians. The Japanese surrender didn't happen due to a single event or a single factor. One of the biggest factors was the massive weakening of their army, which made it virtually impossible to successfully defend from an invasion, regardless of whether it came from the US or the USSR or both. They had been isolated due to the sea blockade and Okinawa showed them that it would be very difficult to stop an amphibious invasion of the main islands. The virtual total destruction of the Kwantung Army by the Soviets in Manchuria was the final death blow from a military perspective. Now add the impact of continuous aerial bombardment and eventually the two atomic bombs, and it became rather clear that a final heroic defense against invading forces would end up as nothing but slaughter.

 

 

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Quote

The Soviet planning started in March 1945 and they started shifting equipment in April.

 

In other words, after the Japanese forces had already been weakened by the Allies after years of fighting.

 

.

Quote

..it became rather clear that a final heroic defense against invading forces would end up as nothing but slaughter.

 

I think the 'slaughter' would have been on both sides. The Japanese knew they were going to lose. Their philosophy was to take down as many opponents as possible before going down themselves. 

 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, JackMan said:

 

 

In other words, after the Japanese forces had already been weakened by the Allies after years of fighting.

 

I don't think I said anything that suggested otherwise. My post was in response to the earlier suggestion that the Soviets only decided to invade after the bombs were dropped - the intention was clearly there much earlier and the planning started many months prior. The huge success of their campaign was obviously to some extent influenced by the weakened Japanese forces, as also delved into in a lot more detail in the paper that I referenced.

 

Quote

I think the 'slaughter' would have been on both sides. The Japanese knew they were going to lose. Their philosophy was to take down as many opponents as possible before going down themselves. 

 

Indeed. But the question was about the motivation for the Japanese to surrender - at that point it was already clear to their entire leadership that no matter how many opponents they managed to take with them, they were still going to lose. Even they understood the futility of it all at that point. Their grasp of that fact was informed by more than just the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which is the point I was trying to make and which most historians whose work I have read on the topic also seem to agree with.

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On 4/28/2020 at 5:17 AM, Darren Roberts said:

 

Terrible song? How dare you! That's heresy. Nothing beats 80's hair band music. Go sit in the corner and contemplate the error of your ways! 😄

Are the terms "'80s" and "hair band" redudant?    That's like saying "old school Super Nintendo". 😜

A lot of songs can be reworked/mixed into styles that appeal to the listener - hard rock, country, techno, dance, etc.   If you are/aren't a fan of particular style, it may bias the you towards/against the song in that style.  Here is the "The Final Countdown" given the "EPIC"-style rework  ->  EPIC COVER | ''The Final Countdown'' by Damned Anthem   

 

Edited by John B
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6 hours ago, John B said:

Are the terms "'80s" and "hair band" redudant?    That's like saying "old school Super Nintendo". 😜

A lot of songs can be reworked/mixed into styles that appeal to the listener - hard rock, country, techno, dance, etc.   If you are/aren't a fan of particular style, it may bias the you towards/against the song in that style.  Here is the "The Final Countdown" given the "EPIC"-style rework  ->  EPIC COVER | ''The Final Countdown'' by Damned Anthem   

 

 

I have just one thing to say about that cover....................NOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • 9 months later...

You know, the whole plot of the movie is just putting Martin Sheen on the carrier to make sure to get Katherine Ross her dog back.  That’s why Tideman (James Farentino) put him on the Nimitz.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/1/2020 at 6:58 PM, Curiosity said:

Arguable, The Soviets had killed maybe 2 million German soldiers by that time, what had we (I'm a Brit) in the west had killed maybe 250K soldiers and as many civilians,  The Japanese were not afraid of their cities being destroyed, LaMay had done an excellent job of raising Tokyo to the ground by fire bombing it.  The Japanese were afraid of a land war with 6 million Soviet troops who treated their enemies far worse than the U.S. or British ever did.  (which when you think about some of the shoot the British have done is actually saying something!)  Don't drink the american cool-aid, the A Bomb didn't end the war, that's what the U.S. has been saying for 75 years because they needed an excuse to show the Russians what it could do.  I don't disagree with them doing it, I just wish people would accept the less than heroic reasons that they actually did it.  But hindsight is 20/20, and it's not worth getting upset about, as long as no one does it again.....

Agreed..I'm an American who seeks clarity not conclusions..I ask questions..and I've come across plenty of evidence that the Japanese saw Berlin fall and knew the Russians would be coming after them next..and the Russians would slaughter anything that moved.  

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On 3/6/2021 at 7:43 AM, MathmanAHS said:

You know, the whole plot of the movie is just putting Martin Sheen on the carrier to make sure to get Katherine Ross her dog back.  That’s why Tideman (James Farentino) put him on the Nimitz.


So it’s really a love story. Who knew.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/6/2021 at 1:43 PM, MathmanAHS said:

You know, the whole plot of the movie is just putting Martin Sheen on the carrier to make sure to get Katherine Ross her dog back.  That’s why Tideman (James Farentino) put him on the Nimitz.

On 3/17/2021 at 1:50 AM, Tank said:


So it’s really a love story. Who knew.

Huh. And here I thought that they put him there to make sure they end up on that island, set up a company, invent some high tec stuff and earn a lot of money... But I guess getting her dog back is an added benefit. Nice!

 

 

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1 hour ago, Thadeus said:

Huh. And here I thought that they put him there to make sure they end up on that island, set up a company, invent some high tec stuff and earn a lot of money... But I guess getting her dog back is an added benefit. Nice!

 

 


He knew what was going to happen, he could have “tested” some other gadget elsewhere and diverted the Nimitz away still keeping his money and everything. I think he wanted to get his wife back her dog. No greater love.

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On 5/22/2020 at 8:52 PM, Darren Roberts said:

 

I have just one thing to say about that cover....................NOICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is always the Floppotron version. And yes...It is called a Floppotron.

 

 

 Sean

 

Edited by martin_sam_2000
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On 3/6/2021 at 6:43 AM, MathmanAHS said:

You know, the whole plot of the movie is just putting Martin Sheen on the carrier to make sure to get Katherine Ross her dog back.  

 

You know, I completely misread your post as "..to get Katherine Ross on her back".  :rolleyes:

 

.....or did I ?   :coolio:

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