Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 All my Vermont ANG F-51 pics have had me too confused for too long, but I think I'm on the right track now. Please tell me if you think any of my conclusions are incorrect! Of all the Vermont Mustang images, I've decided to make mine as FF-116 (1st pic). The second pic threw me off because I believe it shows a different use of colors on the same pattern. The starburst on the nose is yellow and black, so we can base the rest of the markings on that. My conclusions (please correct me if I'm wrong) as follows: 1) Pic #2 seems to show the middle fuselage stripe as yellow, whereas in Pic #1 it seems to be black. At first I thought it was a trick of the light, but now I think not. Yes? 2) Pic #2 seems to show the tip of the tail in yellow to match the starburst. I can't imagine it would be red when the other markings are yellow and black. Yes? 3) Pic #1 seems to show the tip of the tail as much darker than yellow, NOT matching Pic #2. Again I can't imagine it as red if the other markings are yellow/black. I'm guessing black. Yes? And just to add to the confusion: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) Without knowing the emulsion type, one can't determine or compare colors accurately from a B&W photo. Without a Kodachrome photo or contemprary description, you're winging it. Edited May 10, 2020 by Slartibartfast Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 I know, but at least there are clues, including what standard practice would have been, plus the known color of the yellow on the nose.... But winging it, definitely! You know how it is....you take your best guess, paint it that way, and shortly afterward (or even before it's done) new evidence surfaces to prove you wrong!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Preach it, brother. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Geoff M Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Questions: Both pictures are from the same time period? Markings may have evolved over time. Did the unit have the squadron divided up into "flights" that may have painted aircraft to match the flight unit like the navy did back in the 30's? Might explain different color stripes on the fuselage/tail. Without knowing those and other details, your analysis seems logical but you can never know for sure until further evidence comes out. I've read that in some black/white photo types that yellow appears black, go figure. Good luck with build Geoff M Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Geoff M said: I've read that in some black/white photo types that yellow appears black, go figure. That's exactly my worry!!! What keeps bringing me back is that the tail on 116 definitely appears to be a totally different color from the yellow starburst on the nose. Thanks Geoff! Edited May 10, 2020 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 Andy, I partially agree with Geoff. I can't say anything about the true colors of old b&w photos. However, I believe that the ANG squadrons were very large , perhaps 24 aircraft assigned, and broken up in flights of 4-6 aircraft. If the 134th FIS (VT) is anything like the 133rd FIS (NH) next door, the basic marking colors were standard, but the individual flights had different highlight colors on wingtips, tails, drop tanks, and perhaps even fuselage bands. So... Pic #1 shows the standard yellow starburst trimmed nose/spinner with black highlight, just as in pic #2 & #3 (top). However in pic #1, the fuselage band and tail tip colors are dark (perhaps black or red). Pic #2 shows the standard yellow starburst trimmed nose/spinner with black highlight, just as in pic #1 & #3 (top). However in pic #2, the fuselage band and tail tip colors are medium to light (perhaps blue, green or possibly yellow). Pic #3 (top) shows the standard yellow starburst trimmed nose/spinner with black highlight, just as in pic #1 & #2. However in pic #3, there is no fuselage band and the tail tip color is yellow. I believe that the diagonal fuselage band indicate a flight leader, such as seen on other aircraft in ANG service, ala the RS Models F-51H of NJ & TEX ANG. The 133rd FIS had red noses with the F-47D-30s, F-51Hs & F-94A/Bs. Not much color variation, but I suspect there were differences between flights. When jets came along, I have more photos and can discern blue, green, orange, & yellow wing tank and tail stripes on F-86Ls & T-33s. There might also have been red, just don't have a photo. Kind regards, Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) Great analysis as to why there are so many variations in markings for a plane they only flew a few short years (I have several other examples, with and without bands). And NH definitely had more colorful F-47's for sure! Although Vermont's F-94's were nicely done with yellow and black trim.... So....what would YOU do if you were doing 116? Black tail tip or red? Assuming the fuselage band is black. Edited May 10, 2020 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joe Hegedus Posted May 10, 2020 Share Posted May 10, 2020 (edited) If it were me, based on that first picture I'd go with black on the fin tip for that airplane. The tip looks to be the same color as the stripe edging and, while hard to tell, looks a bit darker than the known red in the insignia to me. Between the first and second pictures, it appears that the stripe and tip match, and where the first pic has what appears to be a yellow diagonal stripe with black trim, the second appears to be just the opposite with a black stripe and yellow trim. Edited May 10, 2020 by Joe Hegedus Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 10, 2020 Author Share Posted May 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Joe Hegedus said: If it were me, based on that first picture I'd go with black on the fin tip for that airplane. Between the first and second pictures, it appears that the stripe and tip match, and where the first pic has what appears to be a yellow diagonal stripe with black trim, the second appears to be just the opposite with a black stripe and yellow trim. Oh crud....the first pic (116) might have the thin stripes in yellow? Wow.....might be....UGH!!!! Why oh why can't I just do subjects with existing decals?? This is #11 in the Vermont series for me, and only two of them had existing decals! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 (edited) On 5/9/2020 at 5:28 PM, Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy said: Those profiles look familiar. Did you happen to get them out of "The First Line - Air Defense in the Northeast 1952-1960"? If so, you saved me the trouble. I was going to pull my copy and see if I could find any info for you. Is this not a great book or what??? I am still hoping the author would be coming out with Vol 2, from 1961 till the end of ADC. With regard to the colors on the tail and stripe of 116, it’s undoubtedly a flight color if all the unit's aircraft had the yellow nose. I'm just skeptical about it being black. It's not a very common color to designate a flight. Yellow and red are out, since they don't match toned-wise with the known markings on the plane. For basic colors, that kinda leaves dark blue. which COULD be a match for the national insignia in this pic. Any history of dark blue being used in this unit? Now you've got me thinking of doing a large scale F-86A based out of Presque Isle, ME (an old base I've spent some time at). Good luck with your project. Edited May 11, 2020 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 (edited) Well heck...."good luck" is exactly what I'll need, the more I learn....this is starting to seem impossible....I mean, I've got to choose something, and I have no idea what! Thought I knew until I asked LOL No, I'm not aware of dark blue, pretty much just yellow and then green later on. Red briefly on the 102's.... Edited May 11, 2020 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 Ok. What if. Since I see on Dutch's profiles of -51H's in the ANG, the top one is only trimmed in black and yellow....and many have a red tail tip.... What if....the tail on #116 really was red, along with the wingtips, and the stripe was black in the middle and yellow for the thinner stripes? Along with the yellow & black sunburst. What if? ...gotta decide SOMETHING.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 Maybe I should just do the second photo, seems to be a straight yellow and black job....I just prefer the scheme having the numbers on the fuselage as well, it's a neat touch. But what can I do....like I said, 9 out of my 11 Vermont builds so far had no decals available....and of 3 others planned, only one has them available.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 Andy, Why not make pic #3 then? No fuselage band, but it has the buzz code and would be a whole lot easier masking. R/ Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted May 11, 2020 Author Share Posted May 11, 2020 (edited) Not bad....guess I've been so fixated on the fuselage bands.....plus trouble trusting illustrations of course.... B&W is so danged frustrating....even got pics of a good one with nose art (same bird that's now preserved at Planes of Fame in different markings) but naturally no decals, plus being b&w, well.....ughhhh If you had a choice between 2 & 3, which would you pick? Just curious. Edited May 11, 2020 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Andy, really! It's a toss-up. Maybe #3 because it has the buzz code. HTH, Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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