GeneK Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dave Williams said: It isn’t so much “production” as it is configuration. I always appreciate your posts, Dave!! Gene K Edited September 25, 2020 by GeneK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Curt B Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dave Williams said: It isn’t so much “production” as it is configuration. While changes were made on the production line, in many case the changes were also the retrofitted to earlier F-4s that were built without the features. When modelers talk about “early” F-4s, they usually mean ones with the short gun muzzle and hard wings. “Late” F-4 are usually thought of as those with the longer Midas 4 gun muzzle and slatted wings. Mostly it’s the wing change as the differentiator as the newer gun muzzles started coming out before the slatted wings appeared in production. Ah, thank you sir! After I got less lazy and did a bit of research on my own, I sort of learned the same thing; it's the gun and wings that comprise the 'early' versus 'late' E variant. i appreciate your post, though, very much! Edited September 25, 2020 by Curt B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Matt Foley Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Curt B said: Thanks, Matt. I guess I was just being lazy. I'll certainly do my own research. No problem and as expected you already heard from some of the Phantom Phollowers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Matt Foley Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 57 minutes ago, GeneK said: I always appreciate your posts, Dave!! Gene K Ditto Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Matt Foley Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 4 hours ago, Dave Williams said: It isn’t so much “production” as it is configuration. While changes were made on the production line, in many case the changes were also the retrofitted to earlier F-4s that were built without the features. When modelers talk about “early” F-4s, they usually mean ones with the short gun muzzle and hard wings. “Late” F-4 are usually thought of as those with the longer Midas 4 gun muzzle and slatted wings. Mostly it’s the wing change as the differentiator as the newer gun muzzles started coming out before the slatted wings appeared in production. I always assumed that the wing config was the most telling (and muzzle) and then for a "really late" I look for the TISEO. Might not be spot on about that, but my Fav's of the F-4E were the late 4th Wing at Seymour Johnson. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Matt Foley Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 And...Sprue Bros now have them in stock. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
juanchopancho Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 Indeed my pre-order already packed and ready to ship. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 1 hour ago, juanchopancho said: Indeed my pre-order already packed and ready to ship. Me too...the Brothers Sprue right on time as usual! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stefan buysse Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 Hi, Does anyone knwo if it is possible to buy separate sprues of ZM kits? I'd love to obtain some extra Navy style inner pylons. Cheers, Stefan. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Curt B Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Mr Matt Foley said: And...Sprue Bros now have them in stock. Dang...and I JUST two days ago placed a SprueBros order for the Eduard 1/48 Adlerangriff Bf 109s... Oh well, what's another shipping cost? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Matt Foley Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 I know we're on a Topic regarding the F-4E but what would be the recommendations for an F-4C? Stick with ZM or go Academy? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Curt B Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 Just now, Mr Matt Foley said: I know we're on a Topic regarding the F-4E but what would be the recommendations for an F-4C? Stick with ZM or go Academy? Interesting question, Matt. I have the ZM 4C, but I thought ZM was THE go to model maker for ANYTHING Phantom. Was I incorrect in that understanding? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Matt Foley Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 10 minutes ago, Curt B said: Interesting question, Matt. I have the ZM 4C, but I thought ZM was THE go to model maker for ANYTHING Phantom. Was I incorrect in that understanding? Well, it depends. The fuselage profile of the transition near the engines is lacking. ZM changed this on the E. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Curt B Posted September 25, 2020 Share Posted September 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr Matt Foley said: Well, it depends. The fuselage profile of the transition near the engines is lacking. ZM changed this on the E. Ah, yes, I recall seeing that discussion. For me, the nuance between the 2 was mostly lost. But...I do understand how detail oriented many folks are. Perhaps I'll see the difference when I put the C and E fuselages next to each other 'in the flesh'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 5 hours ago, GeneK said: I always appreciate your posts, Dave!! Gene K No problem 😉 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dehowie Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 10 hours ago, Dave Williams said: It isn’t so much “production” as it is configuration. While changes were made on the production line, in many case the changes were also the retrofitted to earlier F-4s that were built without the features. When modelers talk about “early” F-4s, they usually mean ones with the short gun muzzle and hard wings. “Late” F-4 are usually thought of as those with the longer Midas 4 gun muzzle and slatted wings. Mostly it’s the wing change as the differentiator as the newer gun muzzles started coming out before the slatted wings appeared in production. To add to what Dave said there are Early Earlies, Late Earlies, Early Lates and Late Lates... Does that help? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Curt B Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, dehowie said: To add to what Dave said there are Early Earlies, Late Earlies, Early Lates and Late Lates... Does that help? I don't know if that helps or makes things even more fuzzy. I kind of figured I had it covered with the early and late. I don't know what to make of the concept of dividing the changes of the F-4E into 4 distinct phases of changes. Unless you are now talking about short muzzle, hard wings, then short muzzle with slatted wings, then long muzzle with slatted wings, with possibly some long muzzle with hard wings fitting somewhere in there. I guess that would make 4 combinations. Edited September 26, 2020 by Curt B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 25 minutes ago, Curt B said: I don't know if that helps or makes things even more fuzzy. I kind of figured I had it covered with the early and late. I don't know what to make of the concept of dividing the changes of the F-4E into 4 distinct phases of changes. Unless you are now talking about short muzzle, hard wings, then short muzzle with slatted wings, then long muzzle with slatted wings, with possibly some long muzzle with hard wings fitting somewhere in there. I guess that would make 4 combinations. Don’t overthink this. “Early” and “Late” are mostly made up terms by modelers and model companies to differentiate F-4E model kits with different parts in the box. I think he’s just joking anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
airmechaja Posted September 26, 2020 Author Share Posted September 26, 2020 7 hours ago, Dave Williams said: Don’t overthink this. “Early” and “Late” are mostly made up terms by modelers and model companies to differentiate F-4E model kits with different parts in the box. I think he’s just joking anyway. What Dave said. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
F4DPhantomII Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 Still for an answer to Steve Ritchies F-4E MiG killer 362. Short or Midas gun muzzle. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 15 hours ago, Mr Matt Foley said: I know we're on a Topic regarding the F-4E but what would be the recommendations for an F-4C? Stick with ZM or go Academy? The Academy kits are very good, but still need some help, depending on how accuracy-oriented you are. The ACS scoops are too thin and the painted area on the stabilators is too small. Both can be easily fixed with resin parts or DIY. The intake ducts are wrong; they’re just there to make it look like there are ducts there. The cockpits aren’t too bad, but I’d give the nod to Z-M there. If you already have an Academy C/D, I wouldn’t sell it to run out and buy the Z-M. I think the total expense for kit and aftermarket to bring the Academy kit up to the same level of accuracy as an a out of the box Z-M kit would be pretty close to equal. That’s based on my playing around with 1/48 F-4J options a year or so ago. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Curt B Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ben Brown said: The Academy kits are very good, but still need some help, depending on how accuracy-oriented you are. The ACS scoops are too thin and the painted area on the stabilators is too small. Both can be easily fixed with resin parts or DIY. The intake ducts are wrong; they’re just there to make it look like there are ducts there. The cockpits aren’t too bad, but I’d give the nod to Z-M there. If you already have an Academy C/D, I wouldn’t sell it to run out and buy the Z-M. I think the total expense for kit and aftermarket to bring the Academy kit up to the same level of accuracy as an a out of the box Z-M kit would be pretty close to equal. That’s based on my playing around with 1/48 F-4J options a year or so ago. Ben Oh, okay. So Mstt Foley's question about whether he should go for an Academy or ZM F-4C was probably based on price? Again, my impression (based solely on reading various forum posts, here in Arc Air and other places) is that the ZM Phantoms, across the board, were/are the best 1/48 Phantoms on the market, overall. I was surprised to see Matt's question, even suggesting that another model manufacturer was a 'better' alternative to ZM, for any of the F-4 variants. One other unrelated question... Assuming that ZM IS going to do a 'late' F-4E, would the differences between that assumed kit and the one just out PROBABLY be the longer gun muzzle, and slatted wings? Since I KNOW I won't have the motivation to do 2 (early AND late 4E) variants, I'm inclined to wait until the later, and, from what I've learned, more definitive F-4E variant [definitive because I've read that the early versions were, for the most part, upgraded to the later variant equipment]) comes out of ZM. Would this be, in your opinions, a good plan? Edited September 26, 2020 by Curt B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 The long gun muzzle is already in the early kit from reports. The wing will be the big difference between the early and late kits. Other stuff like TISEO and ARN-101 should also be in the late kit, if they aren’t already on the sprues common to the kits. I think that I’ve already seen the inboard pylon mounted flare/chaff dispensers on the sprues in the early kit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 @Curt B I would agree that the Z-M F-4C/D and J kits are the best, even with the aft fuselage issue. Academy’s versions are still very good, but with a few fixable warts. 😁 I’m holding out for the slatted version of the Z-M F-4E. I already have a bunch of Hasegawa F-4Es, including the hard wing version. They can be built into good looking replicas with some aftermarket bits, but they’re showing their age. I’d like to have at least one of the definitive kits of my favorite airplane. @Dave Williams I hope they do include the ARN-101 bits, so I don’t have to cobble them together. I’m getting lazy in my old age. I see they already have the ALQ-131 and ALQ-184 for the later years. Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mr Matt Foley Posted September 26, 2020 Share Posted September 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Ben Brown said: @Curt B I would agree that the Z-M F-4C/D and J kits are the best, even with the aft fuselage issue. Academy’s versions are still very good, but with a few fixable warts. 😁 I’m holding out for the slatted version of the Z-M F-4E. I already have a bunch of Hasegawa F-4Es, including the hard wing version. They can be built into good looking replicas with some aftermarket bits, but they’re showing their age. I’d like to have at least one of the definitive kits of my favorite airplane. @Dave Williams I hope they do include the ARN-101 bits, so I don’t have to cobble them together. I’m getting lazy in my old age. I see they already have the ALQ-131 and ALQ-184 for the later years. Ben Slam Dunk then for the ZM for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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