phasephantomphixer Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 When the Nimitz changed to the F-14, was there not an F-4J to be found? Thx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 It appears not. F-4's were swapped out for F-14's in 1977 for CVW-8. Scroll down to the 1977 cruises. CVW-8 composition Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted August 14, 2020 Author Share Posted August 14, 2020 Thanks Darren. No combined operations or cruises and surely the F-4 did it's last carrier launch before arrival of the F-14 on deck Quote Link to post Share on other sites
picknpluck Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 25 minutes ago, phasephantomphixer said: Thanks Darren. No combined operations or cruises and surely the F-4 did it's last carrier launch before arrival of the F-14 on deck There were surely examples of Nimitz doing CARQUALs where F-4's and F-14s shared a deck, if that's what you're looking for. A VF-171 F-4 alongside a CVW-8 or VF-101 F-14 wouldn't be out of place, for example. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) One of the Nimitz's first cruises was pure Phantoms. VF-74 and VMFA-333. They were also combined earlier on USS America. Both times as it happens with CVW-8. There was also a Phantom cruise with a VF-101 CVW-8 det. In other words VF-101 not as a RAG but part of CVW-8. It also happens that VF-142 and VF-143 Tomcats were painted up in CVW-8 colours for another early Nimitz cruise. But I think that was switched to VF-41 and VF-84 who just received the Tomcat. VF-142 and 143 did do a CVW-8 cruise with Phantoms on America. Edited August 14, 2020 by phantom Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 5 hours ago, phantom said: It also happens that VF-142 and VF-143 Tomcats were painted up in CVW-8 colours for another early Nimitz cruise. But I think that was switched to VF-41 and VF-84 who just received the Tomcat. VF-142 and 143 did do a CVW-8 cruise with Phantoms on America. I've often wondered what occurred to swap -142 and -143 for -41 and -84. Was it that -41 and -84 were more fully transitioned to the F-14 and were ready to go? It was assumed (by the painting of the tailcodes on -142 jets) that the former squadrons were going to stay with CVW-8. Alas, it was the Navy. Nothing is set in stone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 1 hour ago, Darren Roberts said: I've often wondered what occurred to swap -142 and -143 for -41 and -84. Was it that -41 and -84 were more fully transitioned to the F-14 and were ready to go? It was assumed (by the painting of the tailcodes on -142 jets) that the former squadrons were going to stay with CVW-8. Alas, it was the Navy. Nothing is set in stone. If anything it would have been the reverse case, as VF-142 and VF-143 made their debut F-14 cruise as part of CVW-6 (AE code) aboard CV-66 America starting in March 1976, while VF-41 & VF-84's first deployment on Nimitz with CVW-8 (AJ) wasn't until September 1977. My Tomcat library is pretty deep but I don't think I've ever seen AJ-coded Ghostriders or Pukin' Dogs. Any chance someone can share a link, or at least a source? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Quixote74 said: If anything it would have been the reverse case, as VF-142 and VF-143 made their debut F-14 cruise as part of CVW-6 (AE code) aboard CV-66 America starting in March 1976, while VF-41 & VF-84's first deployment on Nimitz with CVW-8 (AJ) wasn't until September 1977. My Tomcat library is pretty deep but I don't think I've ever seen AJ-coded Ghostriders or Pukin' Dogs. Any chance someone can share a link, or at least a source? Here's a VF-142 Tomcat with AJ on the tail. Apparently it was taken in 1975. https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p226855169/e69b3a64f Edited August 15, 2020 by Cool Hand fixed link Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Cool Hand said: Here's a VF-142 Tomcat with AJ on the tail. Apparently it was taken in 1975. https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p226855169/e69b3a64f Awesome, thanks for that! If you notice well in the background, there's a second AJ-coded VF-142 Tomcat that has USS America titles below the same tailcode! The photo is dated 1975, so this would strongly suggest that the original plan was for VF-142 & 143 to join CVW-8 on CV-66, not Nimitz. As noted above, those fighter squadrons did deploy with that carrier, but (for reasons still unclear) the air wing assigned was actually CVW-6. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted August 15, 2020 Author Share Posted August 15, 2020 15 hours ago, picknpluck said: There were surely examples of Nimitz doing CARQUALs where F-4's and F-14s shared a deck, if that's what you're looking for. A VF-171 F-4 alongside a CVW-8 or VF-101 F-14 wouldn't be out of place, for example. Yup, you got me there. Wanting to situate my 1/350 Trumpeter Nimitz to the 1977 transition timeframe - include at least one or two of my little Phantoms, but surely must have my VF-84 Cats on duty. Since i've been grabbing up the markings for the rest, A-7, A-6, etc. as well. Think IIRC the RA-5 was still on deck too(?). Just think it was an interesting period for the Nimitz. Thanks for the insight, back then who'da cared? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted August 15, 2020 Author Share Posted August 15, 2020 2 hours ago, Quixote74 said: Awesome, thanks for that! If you notice well in the background, there's a second AJ-coded VF-142 Tomcat that has USS America titles below the same tailcode! The photo is dated 1975, so this would strongly suggest that the original plan was for VF-142 & 143 to join CVW-8 on CV-66, not Nimitz. As noted above, those fighter squadrons did deploy with that carrier, but (for reasons still unclear) the air wing assigned was actually CVW-6. This one? https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p226855169/h69B3A64F#h6f5d5c3b Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 8 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said: This one? https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p226855169/h69B3A64F#h6f5d5c3b Yes, you can see the AJ/America marked VF-142 tail on the far left. The squadron and VF-143 made the cruise in 1976 but with AE/CVW-6 instead. Getting back to your original request/suggestion, this photo is probably later than your desired timeframe (circa early 80s), but shows Phantoms from VF-171 aboard Nimitz - along with a TA-3B - during carrier quals: VF-171 Phantoms on Nimitz Note this would have been during a period between operational cruises, so some or all of the regular air wing would not be aboard. For purposes of your carrier model, it would let you realistically show the variety of types you want, but you would not have a full deck of parked aircraft as seen on operational cruises. As far as confirming the exact air wing makeup at any given time, this info is available on the same site that @Darren Roberts linked earlier. From the "Aircraft Carrier Deployments" section you can browse the full history of any carriers from the Midway class on. Here's the rundown for Nimitz: CVN-68 Deployment History Per that source, RA-5Cs were aboard until June 1978. The recon role was then taken up by RF-8s until 1980. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 11 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said: This one? https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p226855169/h69B3A64F#h6f5d5c3b Take a look to the left of the VF-142 F-14. See what that is? It's a VF-84 F-4 Phantom. Now I'm really curious why -142 and -143 didn't join CVW-8. I think I'm going to go over to the F-14 Tomcat Association page and ask if anyone has a solid reason for the switch. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Darren Roberts said: Take a look to the left of the VF-142 F-14. See what that is? It's a VF-84 F-4 Phantom. Now I'm really curious why -142 and -143 didn't join CVW-8. I think I'm going to go over to the F-14 Tomcat Association page and ask if anyone has a solid reason for the switch. The VF-84 airframe in that photo is one of the F-4Ns that they had just finished a cruise on the old Roosevelt CV-42(?) I believe the CVW would have been painted out and only the skull and cross bones would be on the tail. I believe they WERE AE (CVW-6). But during transition they would have been shore based awaiting their next CVW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 Another point. Had VF-41 and 84 not gone to Nimitz then the movie "The final Countdown would have been weird(er). Puking Dogs instead of the Jolly Rogers? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted August 16, 2020 Author Share Posted August 16, 2020 19 hours ago, Quixote74 said: Yes, you can see the AJ/America marked VF-142 tail on the far left. The squadron and VF-143 made the cruise in 1976 but with AE/CVW-6 instead. Getting back to your original request/suggestion, this photo is probably later than your desired timeframe (circa early 80s), but shows Phantoms from VF-171 aboard Nimitz - along with a TA-3B - during carrier quals: VF-171 Phantoms on Nimitz Note this would have been during a period between operational cruises, so some or all of the regular air wing would not be aboard. For purposes of your carrier model, it would let you realistically show the variety of types you want, but you would not have a full deck of parked aircraft as seen on operational cruises. As far as confirming the exact air wing makeup at any given time, this info is available on the same site that @Darren Roberts linked earlier. From the "Aircraft Carrier Deployments" section you can browse the full history of any carriers from the Midway class on. Here's the rundown for Nimitz: CVN-68 Deployment History Per that source, RA-5Cs were aboard until June 1978. The recon role was then taken up by RF-8s until 1980. Nice rundown and pic, so would there have been any visiting Phantoms during a cruise? I know, i'm being like a pitbull & not letting go on this, but since I got y'all here... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 -142 and -143 (in CVW-8) came off their Phantom cruise in Aug. '74 and began transition to the Tomcat. CVW-6, with -41 and -84 aboard flying Phantoms, went on cruise during the first half of '75. They were going to start transition sometime after they got back from that cruise. In 1976, both CVW-6 and CVW-8 were slated for cruises. CVW-6 was in March aboard the America and CVW-8 was in July aboard the Nimitz. Somewhere the decision was made to swap the fighter squadrons in both airwings. -142 and -143 went to CVW-6 and -41 and -84 went to CVW-8. I don't know if that gave -41 and -84 more time for transition or not. It would seem that maybe they weren't ready, so -142 and -143 were moved to CVW-6 to make that March cruise. It appears to be an issue of timing.Over on the F-14 Tomcat Association page, one guy did confirm they flew from the West Coast to the East Coast and had both AJ and AE marked aircraft. He mentioned something about the new CAG of CVW-6 being a former -142 CO and wanting them aboard America, which is what they always heard. So that might have played into the decision to swap as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 12 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said: Nice rundown and pic, so would there have been any visiting Phantoms during a cruise? I know, i'm being like a pitbull & not letting go on this, but since I got y'all here... The thing about "visiting" is that a) it wouldn't be a full squadron coming aboard, and b) it wouldn't be especially well-documented (e.g. one or two Phantoms "cross decking" from another carrier, or stopping aboard while it was near shore, wouldn't be an official deployment, thus not easy to find on record. That said, lack of documentation works in your favor if what you want to do is drop a couple of F-4s onto the deck along with an air group from one of the confirmed Tomcat cruises. Particularly in the late 70s/early 80s there were several air wings that hadn't converted from Phantoms yet, and Coral Sea (and Midway in the Pacific) never flew Tomcats at all, going straight from Phantoms to Hornets (VF/A-151 and VF/A-161). If you research a bit of Nimitz's history you could find out other carriers in her area of operations that might have had a couple of Phantoms stop over for a short visit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 Throw in the Reserve Navy and Marine units that were still in F-4s into the early 80s ... -Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted August 17, 2020 Author Share Posted August 17, 2020 Right, narrowing hope to find pic (have plethora of Kokufan's to go through) of an F-4 or two from squadron I have the 1/350 decals of - now that's just lazy...)😜 visiting while VF-84 was on cruise. Thanks all! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted August 17, 2020 Share Posted August 17, 2020 3 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said: Right, narrowing hope to find pic (have plethora of Kokufan's to go through) of an F-4 or two from squadron I have the 1/350 decals of - now that's just lazy...)😜 visiting while VF-84 was on cruise. Thanks all! What squadron(s) do you have markings for? If they were deployed to the Atlantic or Med at the same time as Nimitz you could easily say they had an [undocumented] stopover. Not unheard for a flight to have to divert to a sister ship when more than one CV/CVN was in close proximity (fouled deck on their home carrier, sudden severe weather, etc). At a certain point it's not about something you can prove happened, it's what's feasible that nobody could say for certain *didn't* happen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 Well....true.... mind you I have a 1/350 Enterprise downstairs from 2001 with CVW-8 on board. And one VF-84 Phantom. That might be a stretch on reality. But before I had the Phantom on CVN-65 it was in the shuttle bay of NCC-1701.....so............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted August 18, 2020 Author Share Posted August 18, 2020 9 hours ago, Quixote74 said: What squadron(s) do you have markings for? If they were deployed to the Atlantic or Med at the same time as Nimitz you could easily say they had an [undocumented] stopover. Not unheard for a flight to have to divert to a sister ship when more than one CV/CVN was in close proximity (fouled deck on their home carrier, sudden severe weather, etc). At a certain point it's not about something you can prove happened, it's what's feasible that nobody could say for certain *didn't* happen. Kynda what I was saying, as far as F-4, only kit and Tamiya's plane set # 2 mkgs. And the Tamiya F-4 is an S with Red bolt on black background tail. The Trumpy kit has VMFA-333 & F-74. Kit represents CVW-8 July 7, 1976 to February 7, 1977. I have been purchasing the Starfighter AM decals for next Cruise A/C including F-14. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 The black tail with red lightning bolts sounds like VF-161 Chargers, they were forward deployed with CVW-5 in Japan. -Gregg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted August 18, 2020 Share Posted August 18, 2020 11 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said: Kynda what I was saying, as far as F-4, only kit and Tamiya's plane set # 2 mkgs. And the Tamiya F-4 is an S with Red bolt on black background tail. The Trumpy kit has VMFA-333 & F-74. Kit represents CVW-8 July 7, 1976 to February 7, 1977. I have been purchasing the Starfighter AM decals for next Cruise A/C including F-14. VF-74 went to CVW-17 (AA) and did a couple of Atlantic/Med cruises in Phantoms before going to Tomcats. Not sure how the markings may differ aside from the tail codes (and obviously will depend on exactly which Nimitz cruise you're depicting - the Jolly Rogers were in hi-viz until the early 80s). I don't see anything in Starfighter's catalog that would help you, and even Tomcat decals that are close to Phantom markings from the same unit would require you to buy a full air wing set ($40-50 RRP). Your best option may be finding a squadron whose Phantom markings were pretty simple (VF-31 comes to mind) and using letter decals or dry tranfers to replicate the tail codes. 11 hours ago, GreyGhost said: The black tail with red lightning bolts sounds like VF-161 Chargers, they were forward deployed with CVW-5 in Japan. -Gregg Correct, VF-161 and VF-151 were on Midway in this era (NF tailcodes). Always a Pacific fleet unit in this era, so no chance of hopping over to Nimitz. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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