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Timeline end of F-4J - start of F-14A...


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25 minutes ago, phasephantomphixer said:

Thanks Darren. No combined operations or cruises and surely the F-4 did it's last carrier launch before arrival of the F-14 on deck

There were surely examples of Nimitz doing CARQUALs where F-4's and F-14s shared a deck, if that's what you're looking for. A VF-171 F-4 alongside a CVW-8 or VF-101 F-14 wouldn't be out of place, for example.

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One of the Nimitz's first cruises was pure Phantoms. VF-74 and VMFA-333. They were also combined earlier on USS America. Both times as it happens with CVW-8. There was also a Phantom cruise with a VF-101 CVW-8 det. In other words VF-101 not as a RAG but part of CVW-8.

 

It also happens that VF-142 and VF-143 Tomcats were painted up in CVW-8 colours for another early Nimitz cruise. But I think that was switched to VF-41 and VF-84 who just received the Tomcat. VF-142 and 143 did do a CVW-8 cruise with Phantoms on America.

 

 

Edited by phantom
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5 hours ago, phantom said:

It also happens that VF-142 and VF-143 Tomcats were painted up in CVW-8 colours for another early Nimitz cruise. But I think that was switched to VF-41 and VF-84 who just received the Tomcat. VF-142 and 143 did do a CVW-8 cruise with Phantoms on America.

 

 

 

I've often wondered what occurred to swap -142 and -143 for -41 and -84. Was it that -41 and -84 were more fully transitioned to the F-14 and were ready to go? It was assumed (by the painting of the tailcodes on -142 jets) that the former squadrons were going to stay with CVW-8. Alas, it was the Navy. Nothing is set in stone.

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1 hour ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

I've often wondered what occurred to swap -142 and -143 for -41 and -84. Was it that -41 and -84 were more fully transitioned to the F-14 and were ready to go? It was assumed (by the painting of the tailcodes on -142 jets) that the former squadrons were going to stay with CVW-8. Alas, it was the Navy. Nothing is set in stone.

 

If anything it would have been the reverse case, as VF-142 and VF-143 made their debut F-14 cruise as part of CVW-6 (AE code) aboard CV-66 America starting in March 1976, while VF-41 & VF-84's first deployment on Nimitz with CVW-8 (AJ) wasn't until September 1977.

 

My Tomcat library is pretty deep but I don't think I've ever seen AJ-coded Ghostriders or Pukin' Dogs.  Any chance someone can share a link, or at least a source?

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3 hours ago, Quixote74 said:

 

If anything it would have been the reverse case, as VF-142 and VF-143 made their debut F-14 cruise as part of CVW-6 (AE code) aboard CV-66 America starting in March 1976, while VF-41 & VF-84's first deployment on Nimitz with CVW-8 (AJ) wasn't until September 1977.

 

My Tomcat library is pretty deep but I don't think I've ever seen AJ-coded Ghostriders or Pukin' Dogs.  Any chance someone can share a link, or at least a source?

Here's a VF-142 Tomcat with AJ on the tail. Apparently it was taken in 1975.

 

https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p226855169/e69b3a64f

 

 

Edited by Cool Hand
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1 hour ago, Cool Hand said:

Here's a VF-142 Tomcat with AJ on the tail. Apparently it was taken in 1975.

 

https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p226855169/e69b3a64f

 

 

Awesome, thanks for that!

If you notice well in the background, there's a second AJ-coded VF-142 Tomcat that has USS America titles below the same tailcode! The photo is dated 1975, so this would strongly suggest that the original plan was for VF-142 & 143 to join CVW-8 on CV-66, not Nimitz.   As noted above, those fighter squadrons did deploy with that carrier, but (for reasons still unclear) the air wing assigned was actually CVW-6.

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15 hours ago, picknpluck said:

There were surely examples of Nimitz doing CARQUALs where F-4's and F-14s shared a deck, if that's what you're looking for. A VF-171 F-4 alongside a CVW-8 or VF-101 F-14 wouldn't be out of place, for example.

Yup, you got me there. Wanting to situate my 1/350 Trumpeter Nimitz to the 1977 transition timeframe - include at least one or two of my little Phantoms, but surely must have

my VF-84 Cats on duty. Since i've been grabbing up the markings for the rest, A-7, A-6, etc. as well. Think IIRC the RA-5 was still on deck too(?). Just think it was an interesting period for the Nimitz. Thanks for the insight, back then who'da cared?

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2 hours ago, Quixote74 said:

Awesome, thanks for that!

If you notice well in the background, there's a second AJ-coded VF-142 Tomcat that has USS America titles below the same tailcode! The photo is dated 1975, so this would strongly suggest that the original plan was for VF-142 & 143 to join CVW-8 on CV-66, not Nimitz.   As noted above, those fighter squadrons did deploy with that carrier, but (for reasons still unclear) the air wing assigned was actually CVW-6.

This one?

https://www.aviationphotocompany.com/p226855169/h69B3A64F#h6f5d5c3b

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8 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said:

Yes, you can see the AJ/America marked VF-142 tail on the far left. The squadron and VF-143 made the cruise in 1976 but with AE/CVW-6 instead.

 

Getting back to your original request/suggestion, this photo is probably later than your desired timeframe (circa early 80s), but shows Phantoms from VF-171 aboard Nimitz - along with a TA-3B - during carrier quals:

VF-171 Phantoms on Nimitz

 

Note this would have been during a period between operational cruises, so some or all of the regular air wing would not be aboard. For purposes of your carrier model, it would let you realistically show the variety of types you want, but you would not have a full deck of parked aircraft as seen on operational cruises.

 

As far as confirming the exact air wing makeup at any given time, this info is available on the same site that @Darren Roberts linked earlier. From the "Aircraft Carrier Deployments"  section you can browse the full history of any carriers from the Midway class on. Here's the rundown for Nimitz:

CVN-68 Deployment History

 

Per that source, RA-5Cs were aboard until June 1978. The recon role was then taken up by RF-8s until 1980.

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11 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said:

 

Take a look to the left of the VF-142 F-14. See what that is? It's a VF-84 F-4 Phantom. Now I'm really curious why -142 and -143 didn't join CVW-8. I think I'm going to go over to the F-14 Tomcat Association page and ask if anyone has a solid reason for the switch.

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1 hour ago, Darren Roberts said:

 

Take a look to the left of the VF-142 F-14. See what that is? It's a VF-84 F-4 Phantom. Now I'm really curious why -142 and -143 didn't join CVW-8. I think I'm going to go over to the F-14 Tomcat Association page and ask if anyone has a solid reason for the switch.

 

The VF-84 airframe in that photo is one of the F-4Ns that they had just finished a cruise on the old Roosevelt CV-42(?) I believe the CVW would have been painted out and only the skull and cross bones would be on the tail. I believe they WERE AE (CVW-6). But during transition they would have been shore based awaiting their next CVW.

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19 hours ago, Quixote74 said:

Yes, you can see the AJ/America marked VF-142 tail on the far left. The squadron and VF-143 made the cruise in 1976 but with AE/CVW-6 instead.

 

Getting back to your original request/suggestion, this photo is probably later than your desired timeframe (circa early 80s), but shows Phantoms from VF-171 aboard Nimitz - along with a TA-3B - during carrier quals:

VF-171 Phantoms on Nimitz

 

Note this would have been during a period between operational cruises, so some or all of the regular air wing would not be aboard. For purposes of your carrier model, it would let you realistically show the variety of types you want, but you would not have a full deck of parked aircraft as seen on operational cruises.

 

As far as confirming the exact air wing makeup at any given time, this info is available on the same site that @Darren Roberts linked earlier. From the "Aircraft Carrier Deployments"  section you can browse the full history of any carriers from the Midway class on. Here's the rundown for Nimitz:

CVN-68 Deployment History

 

Per that source, RA-5Cs were aboard until June 1978. The recon role was then taken up by RF-8s until 1980.

Nice rundown and pic, so would there have been any visiting Phantoms during a cruise? I know, i'm being like a pitbull & not letting go on this, but since I got y'all here...

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 -142 and -143 (in CVW-8) came off their Phantom cruise in Aug. '74 and began transition to the Tomcat. CVW-6, with -41 and -84 aboard flying Phantoms, went on cruise during the first half of '75. They were going to start transition sometime after they got back from that cruise. In 1976, both CVW-6 and CVW-8 were slated for cruises. CVW-6 was in March aboard the America and CVW-8 was in July aboard the Nimitz. Somewhere the decision was made to swap the fighter squadrons in both airwings. -142 and -143 went to CVW-6 and -41 and -84 went to CVW-8. I don't know if that gave -41 and -84 more time for transition or not. It would seem that maybe they weren't ready, so -142 and -143 were moved to CVW-6 to make that March cruise. It appears to be an issue of timing.Over on the F-14 Tomcat Association page, one guy did confirm they flew from the West Coast to the East Coast and had both AJ and AE marked aircraft. He mentioned something about the new CAG of CVW-6 being a former -142 CO and wanting them aboard America, which is what they always heard. So that might have played into the decision to swap as well.

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12 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said:

Nice rundown and pic, so would there have been any visiting Phantoms during a cruise? I know, i'm being like a pitbull & not letting go on this, but since I got y'all here...

 

The thing about "visiting" is that a) it wouldn't be a full squadron coming aboard, and b) it wouldn't be especially well-documented (e.g. one or two Phantoms "cross decking" from another carrier, or stopping aboard while it was near shore, wouldn't be an official deployment, thus not easy to find on record.

 

That said, lack of documentation works in your favor if what you want to do is drop a couple of F-4s onto the deck along with an air group from one of the confirmed Tomcat cruises.  Particularly in the late 70s/early 80s there were several air wings that hadn't converted from Phantoms yet, and Coral Sea (and Midway in the Pacific) never flew Tomcats at all, going straight from Phantoms to Hornets (VF/A-151 and VF/A-161).  If you research a bit of Nimitz's history you could find out other carriers in her area of operations that might have had a couple of Phantoms stop over for a short visit.

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3 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said:

Right, narrowing hope to find pic (have plethora of Kokufan's to go through) of an F-4 or two from squadron I have the 1/350 decals of - now that's just lazy...)😜

visiting while VF-84 was on cruise. Thanks all!

 

What squadron(s) do you have markings for? If they were deployed to the Atlantic or Med at the same time as Nimitz you could easily say they had an [undocumented] stopover. Not unheard for a flight to have to divert to a sister ship when more than one CV/CVN was in close proximity (fouled deck on their home carrier, sudden severe weather, etc).

 

At a certain point it's not about something you can prove happened, it's what's feasible that nobody could say for certain *didn't* happen.

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Well....true.... mind you I have a 1/350 Enterprise downstairs from 2001 with CVW-8 on board. And one VF-84 Phantom.

 

 

That might be a stretch on reality. But before I had the Phantom on CVN-65 it was in the shuttle bay of NCC-1701.....so.............

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9 hours ago, Quixote74 said:

 

What squadron(s) do you have markings for? If they were deployed to the Atlantic or Med at the same time as Nimitz you could easily say they had an [undocumented] stopover. Not unheard for a flight to have to divert to a sister ship when more than one CV/CVN was in close proximity (fouled deck on their home carrier, sudden severe weather, etc).

 

At a certain point it's not about something you can prove happened, it's what's feasible that nobody could say for certain *didn't* happen.

Kynda what I was saying, as far as F-4, only kit and Tamiya's plane set # 2 mkgs. And the Tamiya F-4 is an S with Red bolt on black background tail.  The Trumpy kit has VMFA-333 & F-74. Kit represents CVW-8 July 7, 1976 to February 7, 1977. I have been purchasing the Starfighter AM decals for next Cruise A/C including F-14.

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11 hours ago, phasephantomphixer said:

Kynda what I was saying, as far as F-4, only kit and Tamiya's plane set # 2 mkgs. And the Tamiya F-4 is an S with Red bolt on black background tail.  The Trumpy kit has VMFA-333 & F-74. Kit represents CVW-8 July 7, 1976 to February 7, 1977. I have been purchasing the Starfighter AM decals for next Cruise A/C including F-14.

 

VF-74 went to CVW-17 (AA) and did a couple of Atlantic/Med cruises in Phantoms before going to Tomcats.  Not sure how the markings may differ aside from the tail codes (and obviously will depend on exactly which Nimitz cruise you're depicting - the Jolly Rogers were in hi-viz until the early 80s).

 

I don't see anything in Starfighter's catalog that would help you, and even Tomcat decals that are close to Phantom markings from the same unit would require you to buy a full air wing set ($40-50 RRP).

 

Your best option may be finding a squadron whose Phantom markings were pretty simple (VF-31 comes to mind) and using letter decals or dry tranfers to replicate the tail codes.

 

11 hours ago, GreyGhost said:

The black tail with red lightning bolts sounds like VF-161 Chargers, they were forward deployed with CVW-5 in Japan.

 

-Gregg

Correct, VF-161 and VF-151 were on Midway in this era (NF tailcodes). Always a Pacific fleet unit in this era, so no chance of hopping over to Nimitz.

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