ExchefAndy Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 Do carrier based planes jettison there live ordnance before landing on a aircraft carrier? Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tomthegrom Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 No. They bring it back aboard the ship. It would get expensive dumping that stuff on unsuspecting fish all the time! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 To put an asterisk on @tomthegrom's answer, dumping ordnance before landing is obviously not preferred procedure, but it is an option. Every carrier-based aircraft has a certain capacity for the amount of ordnance and fuel it can land safely while carrying, known as "bring back weight." When plannning a mission, the weapons load is partly determined by staying under that weight limit, but also recognizing that in combat you can't always predict the availabilty of targets. This is part of why you often see mixed ordnance loads in the modern era (e.g. JDAMs and LGBs) - so if, for example, there are clouds preventing an LGB drop, they can hit a fixed target with JDAM based on GPS coordinates. In that example, either way you know you'll expend one or the other type of ordnance carried. Bring-back weight limitations were also one of the reasons you rarely saw an F-14 carry its maximum load of six AIM-54 Phoenix missiles. If they didn't fire any, they would have had to dump them before coming back aboard ship - not a good use of a multimillion dollar weapon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tailspin Turtle Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 36 minutes ago, Quixote74 said: Bring-back weight limitations were also one of the reasons you rarely saw an F-14 carry its maximum load of six AIM-54 Phoenix missiles. If they didn't fire any, they would have had to dump them before coming back aboard ship - not a good use of a multimillion dollar weapon. Little known fact: the F-111B could land back aboard with all six Phoenixes plus more fuel than the F-14 could have if it carried four back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 (edited) 31 minutes ago, Tailspin Turtle said: Little known fact: the F-111B could land back aboard with all six Phoenixes plus more fuel than the F-14 could have if it carried four back. I recall reading your blog post(s) indicating that the F-111B's supposed weight problems were mostly overstated, especially compared to the Tomcat's eventual operating weights. It's a shame they didn't focus more attention sooner on giving the F-14 a decent engine. I think most would agree the Navy still got the much better fighter of the two, but it goes to prove the old adage about "lies, damned lies, and statistics." Also, how boring would Top Gun have been if instead of Goose dying you just cut to a scene of he and Maverick floating in their escape capsule.... 😄 Edited September 1, 2020 by Quixote74 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 3 hours ago, tomthegrom said: No. They bring it back aboard the ship. It would get expensive dumping that stuff on unsuspecting fish all the time! They can and do dump fuel if they need to get back under the bring-back weight limit. This would likely be some kind of emergency though, otherwise they might choose to remain airborne until they burn off enough fuel to get under the limit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 It's bad form to dump in the break and piss on the Boss's deck (and LSO's)...but if you have to make weight....you have to make weight. I've held that switch in dump until the ball call...which means we probably landed at max-trap...but still have fuel dribbling out the back in the wires (that's a six pack of soda for the Boss). Wartime...you might be in a spot where you Toff with a load that isn't allowed to be brought back with a useful load on the ball (meaning a few passes at the least). In that case...you would head to the jett box and push off a weapon or two to make weight. Peacetime....even in combat ops (ex: OSW)....you normally have a loadout that allows you to comeback onboard with a useful load. Even MINEX events, which involve a pretty hefty loads.....the aircraft can come back. It's going to be tight in the pattern because folks don't have a whole lot of gas for multiple looks at the ball. That's what makes the job fun. If it's an emergency...all bets are off. If you need to get onboard fast...everything is on the table....jett ord/dump fuel (if you haven't "rung the doorbell" already). If you have time to work the problem...the emergency will dictate what you keep of both. Cheers Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GW8345 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 2 hours ago, Quixote74 said: Bring-back weight limitations were also one of the reasons you rarely saw an F-14 carry its maximum load of six AIM-54 Phoenix missiles. If they didn't fire any, they would have had to dump them before coming back aboard ship - not a good use of a multimillion dollar weapon. This is not a true statement. The reason why you don't see 6xAIM-54 carried is because it was such a nightmare on the maintenance folks and there never really was a need for it. Most of the photos you see with a Tomcat carrying 6xAIM-54 was photo ops, we use to call those event "chasing the Battle E". The Tomcat could trap with 6xAIM-54's, it just won't have a lot of gas to make multiple attempts so he better not bolter more than once or he'd he hitting the duty tanker. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, GW8345 said: The Tomcat could trap with 6xAIM-54's, it just won't have a lot of gas to make multiple attempts so he better not bolter more than once or he'd he hitting the duty tanker. "70x...Hawk Set on 10x". (we only had -154 onboard....so no 20x's). Collin Edited September 1, 2020 by Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Quixote74 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, GW8345 said: The Tomcat could trap with 6xAIM-54's, it just won't have a lot of gas to make multiple attempts so he better not bolter more than once or he'd he hitting the duty tanker. Hence my using the phrase "One of the reasons you rarely saw...." I didn't state or mean to imply it was physically impossible to carry the 6x AIM-54 back to the boat, I said very clearly the weights involved were a factor in it not being done very often. Which your quote above confirms. Edited September 1, 2020 by Quixote74 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GW8345 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 54 minutes ago, Quixote74 said: Hence my using the phrase "One of the reasons you rarely saw...." I didn't state or mean to imply it was physically impossible to carry the 6x AIM-54 back to the boat, I said very clearly the weights involved were a factor in it not being done very often. Which your quote above confirms. It's not really a weight thing, it's a fuel thing. The trap weight (max arrestment weight) is going to be the same, it boils down to how much ordnance verses fuel do you want to come across the ramp with. The less ordnance you have means the more fuel you have and the more fuel you have means the more times you can go around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ExchefAndy Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 Thank you one and all for the info! I had been searching the net for images, particularly the A-6 returning after a mission without any luck. I'm trying to work out how I'm going to display my current build. Thanks again Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 24 minutes ago, ExchefAndy said: Thank you one and all for the info! I had been searching the net for images, particularly the A-6 returning after a mission without any luck. I'm trying to work out how I'm going to display my current build. Thanks again Andy What in particular are you trying to display? An A-6 returning to the boat post mission? Cheers Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ExchefAndy Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 Hi Collin Yes, I'm working on the HB 1/48 A-6E. I'm going through the mental picture process of deciding how I'll display it. I wanted to have some ordnance under the wings, but I couldn't find any images of one landing with bombs. While I'm not going for 100% accuracy, It will irritate me in the long run if it's not believable... if that makes sense Have a great day/night Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 5 minutes ago, ExchefAndy said: Hi Collin Yes, I'm working on the HB 1/48 A-6E. I'm going through the mental picture process of deciding how I'll display it. I wanted to have some ordnance under the wings, but I couldn't find any images of one landing with bombs. While I'm not going for 100% accuracy, It will irritate me in the long run if it's not believable... if that makes sense Have a great day/night Andy A lot of A-6E’s in Desert Storm were loaded with Anti-Surface loads of Skipper/GBU-12, sometimes Harpoon, and ROCKEYE cluster bombs. Just one or two of each, but enough ordnance to cover the mission and return back to the ship and recover with the weapons. If interested, let the board know. Plenty of pics of that out there. Cheers Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ExchefAndy Posted September 1, 2020 Author Share Posted September 1, 2020 Awesome! Thanks Collin, my googlefu has been rather weak lately. That info will actually make it easier as I can refine my search parameters. Time to hit the bench now the ankle biters are at school! Thanks again Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GW8345 Posted September 1, 2020 Share Posted September 1, 2020 For the 85 and 87 cruises on the Nimitz the A-6 Squadron's (VA-35) alert load was 1xAGM84D Harpoon on one of the out board stations and 2xMk 20 Rockeye on centerline MER stations on the other out board stations with a drop tank on the in board and centerline stations. They also occasionally brought back Mk 82's or Mk 83's, even had a Mk 83 break off the rack during recovery and go bouncing down the deck (that was a fun day). For the 90/91 (Desert Shield/Storm) cruise on the Saratoga the A-6 squadron (again VA-35) alert load was the same but sometimes they would change out the Harpoon with a Skipper or GBU-12 or GBU-16. For the 92 cruise on the Saratoga the alert load was the same as the 85/87 cruise. We would occasionally launch the alert to go investigate a surface contact (just to mess with us to see if the could get the alerts off the deck in 5 minutes) and they would always bring the ordnance back. HTH Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ExchefAndy Posted September 2, 2020 Author Share Posted September 2, 2020 Woohoo... thanks GW! 85-87 cruises is the time frame I'm looking at, love the hi viz scheme. Many thanks for that Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted September 2, 2020 Share Posted September 2, 2020 (edited) Go to the middle of the link below...two A-6's loaded out like above...ROCKEYE and SKIPPER http://rickmorganbooks.com/intruders.html My Fav loadout below: And then there is this...March 1986...the Don't Tread On Me loadout...Harpoon/ROCKEYE/AIM-9L Edited September 2, 2020 by Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ExchefAndy Posted September 2, 2020 Author Share Posted September 2, 2020 Again, thank you so much! Now I have a new wallpaper too 🤗 Once I've cooked the family dinner tonight, I'll be heading into my study with a cold beer and way too much enthusiasm! This place is still the best after all these years 👍 Andy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Napalmakita Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 On 9/1/2020 at 11:20 AM, Collin said: It's bad form to dump in the break and piss on the Boss's deck (and LSO's)...but if you have to make weight....you have to make weight. I've held that switch in dump until the ball call...which means we probably landed at max-trap...but still have fuel dribbling out the back in the wires (that's a six pack of soda for the Boss). Wartime...you might be in a spot where you Toff with a load that isn't allowed to be brought back with a useful load on the ball (meaning a few passes at the least). In that case...you would head to the jett box and push off a weapon or two to make weight. Peacetime....even in combat ops (ex: OSW)....you normally have a loadout that allows you to comeback onboard with a useful load. Even MINEX events, which involve a pretty hefty loads.....the aircraft can come back. It's going to be tight in the pattern because folks don't have a whole lot of gas for multiple looks at the ball. That's what makes the job fun. If it's an emergency...all bets are off. If you need to get onboard fast...everything is on the table....jett ord/dump fuel (if you haven't "rung the doorbell" already). If you have time to work the problem...the emergency will dictate what you keep of both. Cheers Collin Outstanding stuff Collin. Love hearing stories about traps and the jargon alone is always hilarious😁 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tomthegrom Posted September 5, 2020 Share Posted September 5, 2020 On 9/2/2020 at 1:57 AM, habu2 said: They can and do dump fuel if they need to get back under the bring-back weight limit. This would likely be some kind of emergency though, otherwise they might choose to remain airborne until they burn off enough fuel to get under the limit. Yep. I was answering his question about live ordnance beinf dumped. I was under the impression that dumping fuel was almost standard for every sortie flown off the boat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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