wadeocu Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 What a lovely production this new Zoukei Mura kit is! When they first released their Phantom kits, I was disappointed that they didn't start with the early E, but now I am glad that they worked out some of the bugs on other models because this is the one for me! It appears to be designed to allow the model to be properly configured for an aircraft taking off with weight still on the main gear although it doesn’t specifically explain this in the instructions. Am I right about this? Going down the list of things to consider for this configuration: 1 - nose gear leg extended 2 - flaps and slats down (instructions say the angles should be: 60 degrees for leading edge flap and 55 for outboard, 60 for flap and 16.5 for aileron - is this right for my build?) 3 - downward facing stabilator 4 - air brakes/canopy closed (of course) 5 - nozzles open 6 - gun vent down/closed (?) 7 - aux intake doors down/open (?) Anything I am missing or getting wrong? It seems that ZM had this configuration in mind designing parts needed for it other than crew figures (see PS) which is pretty cool. I am grateful for any technical advice on getting this right. This will be presented to my old man who did his second tour in Vietnam with the 4th TFS 366th TFW at Danang. Must get the details right; he will spot a goof in a split second! Thanks for taking the time to read this and giving me your thoughts. - Jack PS - Thoughts about crew figures are appreciated too. Hasegawa is an option but they have the visors down. Something a little more detailed would be nice. There are the Aerobonus figures with seats but they are Navy versions (could probably make that work) and they don’t appear to have oxygen masks (kind of a puzzling deal breaker for me). PJ Productions doesn't seem to have anything suitable either. Ideas here are also most welcome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted October 5, 2020 Share Posted October 5, 2020 (edited) Ailerons should be neutral. They’d droop after engine shutdown and hydraulic pressure bled off. The F-4B and I think the J had drooping ailerons when the flaps were down, but not the USAF F-4s. Aux air doors open. Gun vent door closed. I think I read somewhere that it would snap shut as hydraulic pressure came up on engine start. Ben Edited October 5, 2020 by Ben Brown Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) Belly auxiliary air intakes open...they close during landing gear retraction (early in the cycle sequence). Agree with Ben regarding ailerons (no droop on takeoff/landing for Echo models) F-4E Takeoff Video For pilot figures, Academy Phantoms come with two seated crewmembers, each with a visor up/down option. Alas, the visor-up heads are molded without a mask, although I think they look better proportioned than the Aires/Aerobonus figures, in which the heads appear to be swimming inside oversized helmets 🙂 Edited October 6, 2020 by RichB63 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Ben Brown said: The F-4B and I think the J had drooping ailerons when the flaps were down, but not the USAF F-4s. Jack, Pretty neat that your dad flew the E model at DaNang - I'm sure he'll appreciate your presentation! Can you share his name? As Ben said, for your planned configuration, the ailerons would be neutral (assuming no stick deflection). Note that ailerons do not ever go above the neutral position, only down - spoilers on the opposing wing would go up when stick is deflected (spoilers have less drag than an aileron, thus averting adverse yaw). Trailing Edge Flaps would be 1/2, not 60 degrees, for takeoff (full down for landing - you could model the airaft just after touchdown before the chute is deployed, but nozzles would be closed). The Gun Gas Purge Door is spring loaded open. When the aircraft is powered up, hydraulic pressure closes the door. When the trigger is pressed, hydraulic power is removed and the door opens. Likewise, when the aircraft is shut down and hydraulic power removed, the door springs open. Aux Air Doors are controlled by the gear handle, except in flight they could crack open to relieve a fuselage overpressure condition. Handle down = doors open; handle up = doors closed. Helmet visors. If it's not a surprise gift, you'd better check with your Dad what his preference was. His helmet was probably single visor (no choice of clear or dark), and most pilots flew with the visor down. Also, his Oxygen Mask would undoubtedly have been on. The Stabilator leading edge would not necessarily have been full down -- normal take off procedure (in particular single ship with a heavy load) is stick full aft staring the take off run, and as the airplane starts to rotate at around 130 knots (depending on load), the stick is eased forward to establish a 10 degree takeoff attitude, which is held after the airplane lifts off at around 155 knots and climbs out. So since you want to technically impress your dad, have the model in a 10 degree take off attitude. Looking forward to your build! Gene K P. S. You mentioned slats - the hard wing did not have slats, but leading edge flaps. Also, some folks erroneously call the stabilator's fixed opening slats - however, they they are slots. Edited October 6, 2020 by GeneK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wadeocu Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) Thanks guys - super helpful stuff from each of you. That video link is helpful Rich and I forgot all about the Academy kit crew figures. I have an Eduard boxing of that kit so it is very much an option. I agree that the Aerobonus figures have oversized helmets, though perhaps not quite as bad as the unfeasibly huge helmet on this poor SHAR pilot 🤣: I thought you may be along soon to help me Gene; it is reassuring to have your learned input! I suppose it makes sense that they would have visors down on take off in the event of an emergency or just to shade the eyes from the sun. I have my dad's helmet and yes it has one shaded visor with just the bottom half inch or so clear. Not enough to see in 1/48. Also sadly too small to reproduce in 1/48 is the yellow pencil drawing of a hand flipping the bird on the back of the otherwise camouflaged helmet. That was always a giggling point for me growing up as I never heard my dad cuss a day in his life; that is until I listened to some cassette tapes he made of the radio chatter on some of his missions on that tour! And to answer your question, my dad is Lt Col Charles Grant Wade (retd.) and was a navigator during his flying career. His first tour was at Nha Trang with the 14th Air Commando Wing in 1966 flying in C-123s. They wore tiger stripe camo and carried side arms made without serial numbers in that unit. He has a plaque memorializing his honorary membership in the Republic of China's air force for his involvement airlifting guys that weren't supposed to be involved into places that weren't supposed to be an area of operations. Volunteering for a second tour was his ticket to fast jets and he was posted to the then brand new F-4E at Eglin with the 33rd TFW before deploying with the 4th TFS to DaNang. Thanks so much for the rest of the information too Gene. I shall build in confidence with your able technical support. I will post some pictures of my progress. I wasn't planning on doing a full WIP just because I didn't want to get too distracted from the matter at hand, but I suppose I should make the effort to have a place for more questions that are sure to come up along the way. Thanks again guys; all very good and helpful information. - Jack Edited October 6, 2020 by wadeocu Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 2 hours ago, wadeocu said: [Dad] was posted to the then brand new F-4E at Eglin with the 33rd TFW before deploying with the 4th TFS to DaNang. When your Dad was in the 4th, it was probably a little after I was in the building next door in the 40th where we were doing the initial Operational Testing of the F-4E in 1966-67. The Aerobonus figure heads are sadly comical (Halloween ghoul?). As RichB63 pointed out, the Academy pilots are much better. I can send you two if you can't source them elsewhere. Send me a PM. Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Here is one just after lift off with the gear starting to be retracted: Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wadeocu Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 Thanks Jari - that picture shows the stabilator in the position Gene suggested doesn't it? - Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Note that the main gear struts are fully extended. As they retract, the oleos are compressed to shorten the struts so they will fit in the wheel wells. Here’s a cool video to illustrate: LINK You can also see the aux air doors open and close as the gear cycles. Also, great photo of a 335th TFS jet! Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Here is another on taking off: Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wadeocu Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) Very cool video Ben (sorry missed that it was you that posted the link) - - thanks again. That is a great way to see the complete cycle up close. Quite informative indeed! Edited October 8, 2020 by wadeocu Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ben Brown Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I love all of this F-4 nerd stuff! 🤓 Ben Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BillS Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I’m loving all the F-4 stuff too! Speaking of main gear compression during retraction, I’m puzzled that ZM omitted the “shrink links”. Academy included them. They are prominent enough in 48th and fortunately would be easy enough to cobble together. For those doing an F-4 In repose, aux air doors would only be slightly open without the safety struts installed. USAF crew chiefs always installed these when they buttoned the jet up. They extended the actuator making the door open widely. if you're in to RBF streamers, add one hanging out if each door. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 23 minutes ago, BillS said: For those doing an F-4 In repose, aux air doors would only be slightly open without the safety struts installed. Are you sure about that? Gene K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wadeocu Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 Are there differences in the landing gear on different model Phantoms? These parts, for example, intended for the "F-4J/S carrier take-off" look the same as the ones in my F-4E kit: Am I missing something? I never was good at the spot the difference game! - Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Here is some tech info from a R/F-4C/D/E manual: Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 A couple of Navy F-4B about to launch: Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BillS Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 re: the aux air door comment Gene mentioned on my post, to install the safety struts, you had to pull the door open wider to install the strut over the piston on the actuator. There was a ball lock pin that held the strut in place. There were streamers on each strut. I dont remember sending jets out cross country with them but they were certainly used while deployed or at home station and were always installed with other downlocks etc. they were part of the individual aircraft “ dash 21 equipment“. It’s possible I guess that aircrew would not see them as all the downlocks would have been removed when the crew arrived save the face curtain pin and I think the drag chute streamer. Mind you the last operational F-4 I was around was around 1992 or so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BillS Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Here’s the aux air safety strut I described above Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Teeradej Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 3 hours ago, Finn said: A couple of Navy F-4B about to launch: Jari I wonder how creative the marines were on application of smaller “AW” instead of a dash on the squadron number. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 8 hours ago, BillS said: Here’s the aux air safety strut I described above Hi Bill, What was the purpose of the struts? Did the doors pose a threat on parked aircraft? Rich Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCOUT712 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 4 hours ago, RichB63 said: Hi Bill, What was the purpose of the struts? Did the doors pose a threat on parked aircraft? Rich They operated in conjunction with the gear handle. If up the doors were shut and vice versa. Their purpose was to provide additional airflow to the engine bays during low speed and higher power setting (due I the additional drag with the gear down). Yes, they posed a real danger. Actuated by the utility hydraulic system 2750 +/- 250 psi. They cycled when the respective generator switch was cycled from external to on during start up, having enough power to snatch the arm of a crew chief off. You could actually feel the slam inside the cockpit with the engines running. Hence, it was the rule to keep the hands visible whenever somebody was below the aircraft. Cheers Michael Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BillS Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Rich, Yes, the doors operated with hydraulic pressure. If fingers or hands were inside the door they’d have been crushed or severed if the door was actuated. Conversely, a “Phantom Bite” could occur if you came in contact with the sharp corners on that open door! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 28 minutes ago, SCOUT712 said: They operated in conjunction with the gear handle. If up the doors were shut and vice versa. Their purpose was to provide additional airflow to the engine bays during low speed and higher power setting (due I the additional drag with the gear down). Yes, they posed a real danger. Actuated by the utility hydraulic system 2750 +/- 250 psi. They cycled when the respective generator switch was cycled from external to on during start up, having enough power to snatch the arm of a crew chief off. You could actually feel the slam inside the cockpit with the engines running. Hence, it was the rule to keep the hands visible whenever somebody was below the aircraft. Cheers Michael 19 minutes ago, BillS said: Rich, Yes, the doors operated with hydraulic pressure. If fingers or hands were inside the door they’d have been crushed or severed if the door was actuated. Conversely, a “Phantom Bite” could occur if you came in contact with the sharp corners on that open door! Thanks guys! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BillS Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 A little more detail for your Phantom trivia repository Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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