Jump to content

H-53 Reference photos for 2020!!


Recommended Posts

Finally managed to get hold of a couple of MH-53J conversions from Lone star so I can get on with a plan that started about 15 years ago when I bought the Revell CH-53GS kits )))

In the mean time do you think Caracal will be doing this scheme? And do you think anybody will ever make the B model conversion?

Its not just a case of adding the brace bars, there is a hump over the sponsons too, which Ive never been able to discover the size of. Nor the true shape of the bars come to that.

Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Loach Driver said:

Rob, can you recall what types of missions or test flights -4433 undertook while based at Kirtland AFB? It would be fascinating to learn about its test flight program prior to service entry. Thanks.

 

LD.

I believe they were OT&E flights. I was flying HH-3E’s at the time and wasn’t involved with 53’s. Sorry.

Link to post
Share on other sites

This question has brought to mind the command histories I have of the MH-53s at Kirtland AFB. I need to dig those out again! I also need to get busy scanning the prints I borrowed from a Marine CH-53 crew chief that he photographed while participating in Operations End Sweep and Eagle Pull, etc...

 

MW

Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Rob Mignard said:

Glad to be of help. I was just lucky enough to be at Kirtland when she was there. I'd like to do it in 1/48. 

Do you happen to know what its designation was at the time you took the photos?
It was my understanding that its an HH-53H, and later became the MH-53H

Edited by ElectroSoldier
Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Do you happen to know what its designation was at the time you took the photos?
It was my understanding that its an HH-53H, and later became the MH-53H

It was still an HH-53B. If you look at Andy’s earlier post with the photo of the four Air Force folks, it will confirm that.

Mig

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Rob Mignard said:

It was still an HH-53B. If you look at Andy’s earlier post with the photo of the four Air Force folks, it will confirm that.

Mig

 

So at what point did it become an HH-53H?

What colour scheme was it wearing at that time?

Edited by ElectroSoldier
Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Rob Mignard said:

It was still an HH-53B. If you look at Andy’s earlier post with the photo of the four Air Force folks, it will confirm that.

Mig

As does your b&w shot of the nose, where the data panel still shows the designation 'HH-53B'...

7 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

So at what point did it become an HH-53H?

What colour scheme was it wearing at that time?

....14433 officially became the 'YHH-53H' when the first Pave Low modification work was carried out, as it then became a prototype aircraft - but clearly, as the photos show, that designation was never actually applied to the airframe itself.

 

Incidentally, I found another photo of the 'Black Knight' scheme:

Early-PAVE-LOW.jpg.1cc382de7f43333b3108e154b3751b2f.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...
53 minutes ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Been looking over some old photos taken at Mildenhall.

Am I right in thinking the MH-53J/M wasnt FS36118 Gunship grey?

The initial MH-53J finish was the 'European One' scheme - later replaced by overall FS36118. No MH-53M ever wore 'Euro 1'...

 

MH-53J 66-14431 at RAF Alconbury in 1992:

10107103076_b0f246fb60_k.jpg

MH-53J 70-1629 at RAF Alconbury 1993:

27800457536_b90876b351_k.jpg

MH-53J 70-1625 at RAF Mildenhall, 1995:

10107029354_16cbca8970_k.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats what I thought too but I recently got a couple of Cobra Company MH-53J conversions and read the painting instructions.
It describes the European 1 scheme and the modified Asia minor scheme as used during ODS but then at the top of the page it says
"Current Pave Low's are painted Over-all Battle Gray FS 36173"


Which has the nickname AMC grey as its applied to all the AMC assets.


What are your thoughts on this?
Was it as some point for a brief period of time painted FS36173? or is it simply a mistake?
 

Im not so sure because some times they do look like a very very light grey

 

For instance 

MH-53 PAVE LOW Fact Sheet

 

Now I know Gunship grey can fade and or look different in sunlight but that doesnt look gunship grey to me.
Ive seen other instances too but they are in print so I cant show them here.

 

What do you think?

 

I ask because their European 1 camo was like MAC Euro1 not TAC Euro1 so them being AMC gray would make sense as they were MAC/AMC assets.

Edited by ElectroSoldier
Link to post
Share on other sites

The MH-53 fleet became AFSOC assets upon the formation of that command in May 1990 - 23rd AF transferred in its entirety from MAC to become AFSOC. As seen in the above photos, the overall gray finish wasn't introduced until the mid-1990's...

 

FS36118 was the 'standard' gray of the 'European 1' scheme, as evidenced by the H-53 page from this 1978 T.O. 1-1-4 with a June 1986 revision date:

1978_TO_1-1-4.thumb.jpg.4f90dc601108c4e3a5647bec2e6eaad0.jpg

The TAC version of the scheme - applicable to A-10s, F-4s, O-2s and OV-10s - used the darker  FS36081 in place of FS36118.

 

AMC was formed in 1992, after which FS36173 "Battle" aka "AMC" aka "Proud" Gray was gradually introduced as an overall finish for that command's fleet.

Edited by andyf117
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, andyf117 said:

The MH-53 fleet became AFSOC assets upon the formation of that command in May 1990 - 23rd AF transferred in its entirety from MAC to become AFSOC. As seen in the above photos, the overall gray finish wasn't introduced until the mid-1990's...

 

FS36118 was the 'standard' gray of the 'European 1' scheme, as evidenced by the H-53 page from this 1978 T.O. 1-1-4 with a June 1986 revision date:

1978_TO_1-1-4.thumb.jpg.4f90dc601108c4e3a5647bec2e6eaad0.jpg

The TAC version of the scheme - applicable to A-10s, F-4s, O-2s and OV-10s - used the darker  FS36081 in place of FS36118.

 

AMC was formed in 1992, after which FS36173 "Battle" aka "AMC" aka "Proud" Gray was gradually introduced as an overall finish for that command's fleet.


And yet the TAC jets like the A-10A used 36081 instead of 36118, while MAC did use 36118 in their Euro1 scheme so 36118 wasnt the standard grey in European 1 scheme, it depends on the command.

And AFSOC branched from MAC not TAC... At least in camo pattern terms.

Yeah we both know that.

 

So you think its just a mistake on the part of the guy who wrote the instructions?

Edited by ElectroSoldier
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:


And yet the TAC jets like the A-10A used 36081 instead of 36118, while MAC did use 36118 in their Euro1 scheme so 36118 wasnt the standard grey in European 1 scheme, it depends on the command.

And AFSOC branched from MAC not TAC... At least in camo pattern terms.

 

I'd make the case that as the initial 'European 1' scheme on the A-10 incorporated FS36118, and TAC not only changed that on the A-10 but also replaced one of the greens used on the F-4, the 'MAC version' - also worn by twice as many aircraft types - could be regarded as the 'standard' version of the scheme, thereby making FS36118 the 'standard' gray...

 

....regardless, an anomaly with the H-53 was that it was operated by both MAC - in HH-53C form - and TAC - as the CH-53C.

The two variants did not, however, wear different 'command versions' of the 'European 1' camouflage, only the 'MAC version'...

 

2 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

So you think its just a mistake on the part of the guy who wrote the instructions?

 

When adopted for the then-new AMC overall gray scheme, FS36173 had not previously been used on USAF aircraft.

So without evidence to the contrary, yes, especially as FS36118 was used for most other AFSOC types - both then and now.

 

As we agree that AMC aircraft are finished in FS36173, then this shot of a MH-53J being loaded aboard a C-5B should clinch it - compare the Galaxy's fuselage with areas of the Pave Low not affected by shadows, and it can be seen that the helicopter is indeed a slightly darker shade of gray:

DF-SC-98-05491.jpeg

As these colour swatches show, there isn't a huge difference between the two shades...

2020908306_Screenshot(49).png.2fcc347fc5735683911b27f002608fae.png

Edited by andyf117
Link to post
Share on other sites

Euro1 scheme was different by command. Just because it was applied to more types doesnt make it the standard scheme for Euro1.
It wasnt just the A-10A that had the 36081 grey colour applied to it, the F-15E 71-0291 also had it, if your idea about the 36118 version of it was the standard and the A-10A was a special case then that would also have had 36118 but it didnt it had 36081. I believe the F-16 also had the 36081 version of it, as did the F-4 its just that its version had a different green in it.

Personally I always knew the A-10 scheme as Lizard charcoal scheme, not european 1.

 

But about the H-53, I do wonder why the mistake was made thats all on the Cobra company instruction sheet.

 

 

 


 

 

Edited by ElectroSoldier
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, andyf117 said:

 

I'd make the case that as the initial 'European 1' scheme on the A-10 incorporated FS36118, and TAC not only changed that on the A-10 but also replaced one of the greens used on the F-4, the 'MAC version' - also worn by twice as many aircraft types - could be regarded as the 'standard' version of the scheme, thereby making FS36118 the 'standard' gray...

 

....regardless, an anomaly with the H-53 was that it was operated by both MAC - in HH-53C form - and TAC - as the CH-53C.

The two variants did not, however, wear different 'command versions' of the 'European 1' camouflage, only the 'MAC version'...

 

 

When adopted for the then-new AMC overall gray scheme, FS36173 had not previously been used on USAF aircraft.

So without evidence to the contrary, yes, especially as FS36118 was used for most other AFSOC types - both then and now.

 

As we agree that AMC aircraft are finished in FS36173, then this shot of a MH-53J being loaded aboard a C-5B should clinch it - compare the Galaxy's fuselage with areas of the Pave Low not affected by shadows, and it can be seen that the helicopter is indeed a slightly darker shade of gray:

DF-SC-98-05491.jpeg

As these colour swatches show, there isn't a huge difference between the two shades...

2020908306_Screenshot(49).png.2fcc347fc5735683911b27f002608fae.png

Andy,

Been there! Done that! Except with USMC CH-53Es onto C-5s.  Great photo showing the different paint colors to good effect.  We ordered a bunch of 3/4" plywood and 2"x4" lumber to make cradles for the external tanks and pylons as shown and boxes for the rotor head and transmissions for 463L pallet storage.  We only got one CH-53E per C-5, but fit six UH-1Ns or nine AH-1T/Ws alternately. 

K/r, Dutch

  

Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Dutch said:

Andy,

Been there! Done that! Except with USMC CH-53Es onto C-5s.  Great photo showing the different paint colors to good effect.  We ordered a bunch of 3/4" plywood and 2"x4" lumber to make cradles for the external tanks and pylons as shown and boxes for the rotor head and transmissions for 463L pallet storage.  We only got one CH-53E per C-5, but fit six UH-1Ns or nine AH-1T/Ws alternately. 

K/r, Dutch

  

How long does it take to make it look like that and then put it all back again once the doors open?

Link to post
Share on other sites

My memory ain't what it used to be.  Gunny could probably give you a better idea of break down and set-up times.  I imagine set-up probably took two to three times as long because of the lack of MHE and cranes at the far end and the need for inspections to make sure they got it right before the initial test flight.

 

I ran the CALA at Cherry Point during Desert Shield/Storm. My Marines did all the loading and unloading of vehicles and palletized & general cargo.  Additionally, my SSgt and I (alternated 12 hour shifts) acted as liaison between the moving units and the USAF MAC-ALCE team.  If I remember right, two 53Es landed early afternoon on day 1. The Squadron (I would have to go back through old photos to figure out which one.) spent all night getting them ready. One was ready by 8 AM and the second by noon on day 2.  We got the neighboring MALS to set up flood lights.  My Marines and I assisted with the wooden cradles and building the boxes for the transmissions and rotorheads, before palletizing them.  Tail was folded and one tail blade removed as in the USAF photo above.  Tanks and batwings went on cradles atop the sponsons and were strapped down.  IFR probe, blades, and everything else went inside the fuselage, again in wooden cradles.   We got better with each evolution.

 

First C-5 showed up around 1300 day 2 and parked in the closest fuel pit; second C-5 around 1900 and parked in the third fuel pit.  We spent a lot of time lining up the first 53 by hand. [I have learned that you can move anything if you have enough Marines!]  I am pretty sure we used the C-5 winch to pull it in. Because of the height of the 53E doghouse, even with the transmission removed, NADEP provided F-4 Phantom front tires of lesser diameter to replace the rear dual bogies. The Squadron put a Marine with a hydraulic (or was it pneumatic?) bottle on each strut and pumped it up or down as we move the airframe into the bird to provide clearance both for the ramp and for the overhead forward door gear mechanism.  It was tight!  First bird took over an hour to load.  We shaved ten or so minutes on the next bird and a few more minutes on each subsequent evolution.

 

Meanwhile two more 53Es arrive mid-afternoon on Day 2 and taxied to the CALA. Later around dusk the last two 53Es arrived. At this point we were running out of ramp space at the CALA, so they went to NADEP (the depot) at Cherry Point.  While the squadron broke down the second pair, I think the NADEP staff with a few squadron and Wing staff "experts" broke down the third pair.  These took a little longer because of the need for the Squadron personnel to go to shifts. We pulled everyone available into a huddle at the start of each shift and several times a day and were using lessons learned from the initial two birds to speed up the process for the others.  I think the other airframes from the squadron were attached to the MEU, so went by USN Amphib shipping.

 

The LIMFAC was C-5 availability.  After the first two, we only got one C-5 a day for a couple of days with maybe two on the last day, so the whole evolution took about 6-7 days.  Again, my memory is a little foggy.  There was also a worry about MOG, MHE & crane support at the far end.  I think the Saudis had plenty of ramp space early on.  Somewhere up-thread Gunny posted a whole slough of photos for the west coast effort.  I am sure he could chime in with a little more expertise.

 

S/f,

Dutch

Edited by Dutch
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Not trying to hijack Gunny Dan's thread, but he was an amazing source of info for me on a recent project. He was always available to answer questions and he helped sort some things out for me. 

 

I have started a publishing company that will be concentrating on rotary winged subjects and my first book is on the CH-53E. It is 100 pages long with over 500 pics. You can find it at https://cavupublications.com I also did a decal sheet with six subjects that cover the early days of the 53E's service to the latest overall FS 35237 gray scheme.

 

Thank you Dan for all of your patience and support.

 

mason

 

IMG_7618.jpg

Pg15.jpg

Pg31.jpg

Pg46.jpg

Edited by doupnik
Link to post
Share on other sites

Mason,

It was an absolute honor to work with you on this book.  What an outstanding reference source for all of us rotorheads!  Your attention to detail in your model builds and now on your book is as always TOP NOTCH.  Thank you for letting me be in on this journey.  Also, thank you for a decal sheet for those of us who fondly remember the CH-53E when she was only in dark green!!  While I was active duty and flying/maintaining these skypigs, I always liked the tri-color camouflage on a CH-53D and the solid green of a CH-53E with all black stenciling.  With your decal sheet and with Caracal's decal sheet, I can start building that CH-53 stash!!!

 

I look forward to your next book, and as always if I can help in any way you know my numbers!

 

r/Gunny Dan

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...