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23 hours ago, YF65_CH53E said:

So then explain if you have no "special access" why do you only pay half of what us poor schleps pay for a kit?

I am confused by your remarks up and down this post.  I know I am new here, but why point something out as a problem, with possible "insider information" on why it is a problem, but not clue us in on how you know this?

 

I have been buying model kits for over 45 years.  I understand the process of manufacturing a product and getting it to market.  I don't build models for a living, I do that for fun. I run a manufacturing business, that builds aircraft, so I understand running your own company, overhead, cash flow, labor practices, materials, long lead materials, unit pricing, blah blah blah.

 

The market is what the customer is willing to part their hard earned money for.  Period.  If my product or service is so high I run the risk of running myself out of the market, as someone will for sure build my mousetrap cheaper.  So I adjust with the market.  If the kit manufacturers are setting the price for their kit, and then the third party vendor is gouging the consumer so badly the kit simply would not sell.  Obviously this is not the case, as these kits do sell.

 

An example, I have seen over the years the large 1/350 1/200th scale ships on the market.  Tamiya and Trumpeter.  I build airplane models, not ships but I have always wanted to build that big Tamiya aircraft carrier, and doll it up with aftermarket planes and details. The trumpeter large ships are cool too.  BUT, I am just not willing to put out $500 - $1000 on one of those huge ships.  So I pass, and spend $150 on a big 1/48th scale helicopter.  Or, 1/32 scale fighter.

 

But, someone is buying those ship models, because they are available right now online and in my local hobby shop.  He doesn't have (5) of them for sale, but he has 1-2.  The hobby shop / on-line retailer took a risk, bought the kit and is hoping someone will come in and just have to have it.  And they buy.

 

Lastly, I agree as a returning modeler to the hobby after a break of 10-12 years, the hobby is alive and well.  The products amaze me.  I am not the oldest guy on these forums, but I am not the youngest, I remember buying an Aurora F-5 Freedom Fighter from my local drugstore with a tube of glue for .98 cent kit and .15 cent glue.  Last week I bought the Hasegawa 1/32 F-5 for $45 off eBay and cant wait to build it.  Its old, needs help, but its a great kit and $45 seemed fair for a sealed factory Hasegawa.

 

r/Dan

Ok Ill go through it again. Ill use UK prices because they are the prices I pay. How you get them to what you pay is up to you.

 

If I walk into a shop, my local shop here in the UK who stocks Italeri kit then I would pay £137.99 for the new 32nd Tornado GR4 kit.

I can get that kit online for £94.31.

£43.68 price difference.

 

I know how much these kits cost when you buy bulk from the manufacturers in China because I buy them.

Theres no real big shocker there... people do work for distributers, or are owner operators.

I dont have any "insider information" at all. I just see both sides of the distribution chain thats all.

 

The market is indeed what people pay, but that doesnt mean they have to like it... Or indeed they cant talk about it.

It wasnt even like I started the conversation.

 

The way the kits are distributed then of the two prices I talked about above then the local shop will sell one or two in total while the cheaper shop will sell several dozen over a quarter or in some cases a month. And that is what keeps the market going, not the 2 kits sold by the local hobby shop. However it is the local hobby shop that has the biggest visual presence, it is those prices that people see most often.

 

Im like you, been doing it all I long long time now, Ive seen changes. I remember £4.99 for a model being an awful lot of money back in the 70s. the glue was 8p because Ive still got one of the old boxes, (but I dont think its 1970s vintage).

 

As I have tried to point out and seem, going by your post, to be failing is that the prices you see in the local shops are not a good point of reference for model kit prices.

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So the big secret is just to buy online directly from Chinese sellers?

 

People here all know about Lucky Model, Hobby Easy, Ebay, and others. From the way you frame your posts, you make us seem like poor lost souls forever doomed to paying higher prices. I'd say most of us get stuff online as well as make purchases from local shops, accepting the higher cost to support a local brick and mortar store. 

 

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6 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Ok Ill go through it again. Ill use UK prices because they are the prices I pay. How you get them to what you pay is up to you.

 

If I walk into a shop, my local shop here in the UK who stocks Italeri kit then I would pay £137.99 for the new 32nd Tornado GR4 kit.

I can get that kit online for £94.31.

£43.68 price difference.

 

I know how much these kits cost when you buy bulk from the manufacturers in China because I buy them.

Theres no real big shocker there... people do work for distributers, or are owner operators.

I dont have any "insider information" at all. I just see both sides of the distribution chain thats all.

 

The market is indeed what people pay, but that doesnt mean they have to like it... Or indeed they cant talk about it.

It wasnt even like I started the conversation.

 

The way the kits are distributed then of the two prices I talked about above then the local shop will sell one or two in total while the cheaper shop will sell several dozen over a quarter or in some cases a month. And that is what keeps the market going, not the 2 kits sold by the local hobby shop. However it is the local hobby shop that has the biggest visual presence, it is those prices that people see most often.

 

Im like you, been doing it all I long long time now, Ive seen changes. I remember £4.99 for a model being an awful lot of money back in the 70s. the glue was 8p because Ive still got one of the old boxes, (but I dont think its 1970s vintage).

 

As I have tried to point out and seem, going by your post, to be failing is that the prices you see in the local shops are not a good point of reference for model kit prices.

Ok, I understand what you are saying about the model shop prices. They are loaded prices because of the pass throughs they incur and pass onto the consumer. 

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14 hours ago, Specter1075 said:

So the big secret is just to buy online directly from Chinese sellers?

 

People here all know about Lucky Model, Hobby Easy, Ebay, and others. From the way you frame your posts, you make us seem like poor lost souls forever doomed to paying higher prices. I'd say most of us get stuff online as well as make purchases from local shops, accepting the higher cost to support a local brick and mortar store. 

 

Is that a big secret?

 

Not every modeller buys online. A lot of people only really know their local shops.

 

I buy local when they are open, but usually online. Once you pay VAT and shipping the kits from Luckymodel and HobbyEasy are not that competitively priced for me. Your millage may differ as you dont pay the same tax and shipping.

The way you read my posts here isnt really what Im talking about. As I said I probably pay no more nor less than you do at the end of the day.

 

My point is the manufacturers are not the ones who are causing the massive rise in prices.

Those prices being the reason for this thread in the first place, so they are somewhat important to what Im talking about.

 

Im all for supporting my local bricks n mortar shops but Im not looking to have 40 odd pounds rinsed from my pocket so the shop owner can feed his family.

 

8 hours ago, YF65_CH53E said:

Ok, I understand what you are saying about the model shop prices. They are loaded prices because of the pass throughs they incur and pass onto the consumer. 

The levels of surplus value  taken from the sale of a kit has increased dramatically over the years.

 

People coming back to the hobby, who come back to it because they bought a kit in a local shop do see that rise and it puts people off.

Edited by ElectroSoldier
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1 hour ago, ElectroSoldier said:

The levels of surplus value  taken from the sale of a kit has increased dramatically over the years.

 

People coming back to the hobby, who come back to it because they bought a kit in a local shop do see that rise and it puts people off.

 

I'm not sure I agree with that - when I had access to a trade account with a large toy and model distributor about 20 years ago, I would expect to pay roughly two thirds of the retail price for any kit I purchased (taken in reverse, that meant the retail price was roughly 50% higher than the wholesale price).

 

The price differentials I'm seeing today suggest that's not changed significantly over the past 20 years.

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7 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

 

I'm not sure I agree with that - when I had access to a trade account with a large toy and model distributor about 20 years ago, I would expect to pay roughly two thirds of the retail price for any kit I purchased (taken in reverse, that meant the retail price was roughly 50% higher than the wholesale price).

 

The price differentials I'm seeing today suggest that's not changed significantly over the past 20 years.

Yeah I can understand that line of thought right up until I get to these two facts.

 

I can go onto a site like Luckymodel and pay £82.35 (and this site makes a profit on its sales)

I can go onto a site like PMmodels and pay £137.99 (and this site makes a profit on its sales)

 

50.5% difference in the retail prices of those two kits, which are the same kit.

 

I prefer sites which are closer to home.

But not everybody uses the same shops and online retailers.

People see those two different prices and know that the excess money, the +50% is going into the pocket of the shops owners. Because from that you can see you can make a profit on an £82 sale.

 

And that is where you get the conversations about kit prices from.

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The cost of a kit varies around the world - not because distributors and retailers are screwing customers in specific countries, but because the price is pitched to suit the spending power of the local market (any product, any market).

 

If you buy from overseas, the overseas retailers are not offering you a major discount, they are generally selling at the prevailing retail price in their country. Your 'discount' comes from the differential between what their retail price is and what your local retail price is. So you'll argue that this proves your point, but it doesn't.

 

The economies in those countries are very different and whilst the price may be cheaper by our standards, it probably works out as a similar percentage of the average customer's take-home pay in that local market. That's how the world works.

 

What we have the luxury of doing is 'gaming' the global market to get the best prices (by our standards) - but at the same time we are killing our local hobby shops and online businesses because they cannot compete with overseas retailers who are operating in an entirely different financial environment.

 

My spend is spread across multiple retailers from as close as 20 miles away and within the same country, but also from as far away as the other side of the globe. My individual spend might make no difference to anyone, but a hundred people like me, or a thousand people like me, doing the same thing I'm doing will make a difference, for better or for worse.

 

The real issue is not whether you can buy kits cheaper from elsewhere but understanding the consequences of that on the hobby in your area and whether or not that matters to you. Each of us will make our own choice about that.

 

It's not a new thing - 'grey imports' have been an issue in many retail sectors for many years.

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On 2/21/2021 at 7:16 PM, John Tapsell said:

The cost of a kit varies around the world - not because distributors and retailers are screwing customers in specific countries, but because the price is pitched to suit the spending power of the local market (any product, any market).

 

If you buy from overseas, the overseas retailers are not offering you a major discount, they are generally selling at the prevailing retail price in their country. Your 'discount' comes from the differential between what their retail price is and what your local retail price is. So you'll argue that this proves your point, but it doesn't.

 

The economies in those countries are very different and whilst the price may be cheaper by our standards, it probably works out as a similar percentage of the average customer's take-home pay in that local market. That's how the world works.

 

What we have the luxury of doing is 'gaming' the global market to get the best prices (by our standards) - but at the same time we are killing our local hobby shops and online businesses because they cannot compete with overseas retailers who are operating in an entirely different financial environment.

 

My spend is spread across multiple retailers from as close as 20 miles away and within the same country, but also from as far away as the other side of the globe. My individual spend might make no difference to anyone, but a hundred people like me, or a thousand people like me, doing the same thing I'm doing will make a difference, for better or for worse.

 

The real issue is not whether you can buy kits cheaper from elsewhere but understanding the consequences of that on the hobby in your area and whether or not that matters to you. Each of us will make our own choice about that.

 

It's not a new thing - 'grey imports' have been an issue in many retail sectors for many years.

So you think the manufacturers sell their products at different prices depending on where the exporter is intending on sending those products? 

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The price of any product will be pitched to compete with similar products in the market where it's being sold. If you pitch it wrong, it won't sell. Inevitably that means the starting price will vary from market to market.

 

The cost of actual production is relatively stable, but once it leaves the factory gates anything beyond that is negotiable. The manufacturer will have set a minimum level of profit they wish to achieve on the product (depending on their business model), but they can spread that return across their entire market reach.

 

If a distributor in one country or region is ordering higher volumes than those in another region, of course the manufacturer is going to offer them better rates. Asia is a far larger and more vibrant market for kits these days than Europe or North America. The vast increase in manufacturers (mostly Asian) and subject variety over the past 20 years is being driven by the appetite for the the hobby in that part of the world, not ours.

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9 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

The price of any product will be pitched to compete with similar products in the market where it's being sold. If you pitch it wrong, it won't sell. Inevitably that means the starting price will vary from market to market.

 

The cost of actual production is relatively stable, but once it leaves the factory gates anything beyond that is negotiable.

So going on this basically you are agreeing with me then.

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It's the manufacturer that sets the price they sell to distributors at. That will vary depending on where that distributor is located and how good a customer they are. In your scenario you seem to be defining the manufacturer and the exporter are separate entities. My point is that they are one and the same - the distributor is buying direct from the manufacturer.

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7 hours ago, John Tapsell said:

It's the manufacturer that sets the price they sell to distributors at. That will vary depending on where that distributor is located and how good a customer they are. In your scenario you seem to be defining the manufacturer and the exporter are separate entities. My point is that they are one and the same - the distributor is buying direct from the manufacturer.

Erm.... No thats not what I was saying at all.

 

A manufacturer sets a value to its product to a market based on localization values.

So when they sell it to a US disty it might be $10, when sold to a UK disty it might be £10.

 

Then the disty takes over and sells it to retailers and every step beyond that increases the prices as I have given in examples above.

The example I gave with the Italeri Tornado above, both of those kits come from the same disty.

 

Oh and in most, not all, but most cases the distributer and the manufacturer are not the same entity. Each has their own separate profit margin. To be the same entity the profit margin would need to be taken together at the same time and shared between the two. Which in most cases isnt the case.
 

Some manufacturers do distribute their own products, but its very rare and those companies are known. You can build up your own list by taking a look at the various distributers site taking note of which companies are present then checking them off known manufacturers and see whos missing. 

Edited by ElectroSoldier
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