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What MERs were used on the A-10A in the 1991 gulf and what weapons did they carry on them and also did they use GBUs?


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11 hours ago, Modelkeenfan said:

I was watching a documentary on the A-10s in the 1991 Gulf War.  They actually had no night capabilities at all so could only fly day light sorties until one pilot worked out if he had a maverick with its optical guidance turned on while it was still on the pylon under the wing, he could actually use the images the maverick was displaying in the cockpit to fly at night.  The images from the maverick camera just looked the same as using an all weather targeting pod.  I thought that was pretty smart to think of that.

 

The two squadrons tasked with night time combat also did the traditional way of seeing things, carrying two pods with illumination flares.

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You can't beat the old MK1 eyebal!!!!!  I think though that it was incredible that the A-10s never had a night time capability!!!!  The first gulf war showed up a lot of NATOs short comings like this.  Also the UK having to share targeting pods to be able to use LGBs as they didn't have enough.  There was a lot of problems encountered with kit and lack of in all the US services and the UK.  I think it showed NATO was not as equipment capable as we were always led to believe.  

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I remember ODS highlighted an awful lot of short comings in the military capability of each respective country.

From the British Tornado having to put itself in as much danger as possible to destroy a runway to American troops firing on friendly forces.

 

Didnt some of the or one of the A-10 pilots take up his car satnav up with him because the plane wasnt fitted with it?

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Yes another example is the special forces.  They deployed without any winter clothing, had to beg,borrow and steal to get ammunition, their pistols went missing, half their kit hadn't arrived in theatre and they couldn't choose any of the specialist weapons they wanted as there were none.  Bravo two zero highlighted this and they were told the temperature was like a mild European winter in northern Iraq.  It was snowing and I think two of that patrol died of hypothermia.  So it appeared every NATO countries air force and army were lacking basic equipment.  I don't know of any issues with the naval services.

Edited by Modelkeenfan
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12 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

I remember ODS highlighted an awful lot of short comings in the military capability of each respective country.

From the British Tornado having to put itself in as much danger as possible to destroy a runway to American troops firing on friendly forces.

 

Didnt some of the or one of the A-10 pilots take up his car satnav up with him because the plane wasnt fitted with it?

I'm not so sure about the British Tornado having to put itself in as much as danger, as opposed to their wing leadership choosing to do the low level bombing which put crews in greater danger.  Even if AAA didn't get you, there is so little margin for error.  The Saudi's stopped low level attacks after the first night.  Others eventually went to higher altitudes where there was safety.

Early on during the war when VA-35 sent 4 intruders to attack an Iraqi airfield, one was shot down, another damaged that had to divert to Saudi Arabia.  This is all after the fact of course, but could the RAF have done something else to attack airfields other than using loft-bombing and using the JP233?

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17 minutes ago, Benner said:

I'm not so sure about the British Tornado having to put itself in as much as danger, as opposed to their wing leadership choosing to do the low level bombing which put crews in greater danger.  Even if AAA didn't get you, there is so little margin for error.  The Saudi's stopped low level attacks after the first night.  Others eventually went to higher altitudes where there was safety.

Early on during the war when VA-35 sent 4 intruders to attack an Iraqi airfield, one was shot down, another damaged that had to divert to Saudi Arabia.  This is all after the fact of course, but could the RAF have done something else to attack airfields other than using loft-bombing and using the JP233?

30 years of retrospect talking there?

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The Tornado was designed as a fast low level attack bomber.  That is why the JP233 is designed to be used on the tornados.  The JP233 is designed to be dispensed at a 100 odd foot off the ground directly into the middle of runways.  The weapon was designed and made to be carried by the tornado.  The RAF pilots trained using the JP233 at these low fast altitudes at night time as a routine mission.  No other pilots in the world were trained for such missions with such weapons.  The Saudis had the JP233 capability as did the Italians but didn't train enough to fly at these fast low altitudes at night time required to use the JP233.  So the Saudis realised after the first night they simply didn't have enough training and thus the skills to use the JP233 at night in the fast low flying conditions required.  The US didn't have such a weapon designed to be used at such fast low altitudes at night so they too never trained specifically for these fast low level night time missions that the RAF tornado pilots were specifically trained to carry out.  So it wasn't a matter of the RAF commanders ordering their crews to carry out these attacks, the US planners used the tornado on these missions as they were aware the RAF tornados had the capability and skills required to do this mission, so the RAF were designated the low fast night time runway destruction missions to the tornados.  The Saudi planners probably thought they could also fly these missions but we're not aware they hadn't trained enough for these missions and after the first night, the pilots made their bosses aware of this and thus stopped after the first night.

 

It also has to be understood that the LGB had never been used on the tornados into! The gulf war or shortly before so that is probably why the RAF were using the JP233 and dumb bombs at the beginning of the war and had no targeting pods at the start of the war.  Then had a shortage and had to share them when they got the LGB units fitted me started using them.  It was only at this point that the tornados stopped flying fast low level day and night bombing runs.  So the RAF tornados crews had really trained for all their missions flying fast low level night and day missions using the JP233 and dumb bombs.

 

No tornado crews had either been trained to use the ALARM missiles before deploying to the middle east. They put them on the aircraft in three different configurations before they agreed on using them on the belly racks and also had to upgrade the pylons in theatre to carry the ALARMs.  The ALARM was introduced into service during the gulf war.  So maybe the issues weren't were all about lacking the equipment but maybe some of it was because of rushing new weapons into theatre that had never been used in theatre before such as the LGBs, targeting pods and the ALARMs are an example.

 

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1 hour ago, Modelkeenfan said:

...No other pilots in the world were trained for such missions with such weapons.  ... The US didn't have such a weapon designed to be used at such fast low altitudes at night so they too never trained specifically for these fast low level night time missions that the RAF tornado pilots were specifically trained to carry out. 

Edited by habu2
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grrrr for some reason I was unable to add my reply to the above quote...

 

Your claim of low altitude high speed anti-runway weapons being exclusive to the RAF is inaccurate. 

 

The Durandal is an anti-runway munition that is deployed at low altitudes and is in service with several different air forces. The US had the BLU-107/B (a version of the Durandal) on the F-111E and was used with excellent results during Desert Storm. 

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The difference between the durandal and the JP 233 is the delivery method.  The JP 233 has to be delivered very precisely.  If the plane is even a few feet too high, the bomblets can easily drift of target downwind.  Plus the plane must be completely straight and level and being flown precisely.  Because of this, the aircrew have to commence their attack run well before the runway.  This why it's very dangerous because as anyone would know, an aircrew are at their most vulnerable when flying in a perfect straight line and holding a very flat altitude.  So they have to commence their bombing run well before the target and fly straight through the middle of an airfield -These were some of the most dangerous missions of the war. The Durandal can delivered in a dive.  It doesn't require the precise flying that the Tornado did to deliver the weapons on target.  The F111 was going to get the JP233 but they didn't due to budget constraints.  The F111 also being a swing wing fighter is probably the closest to the tornado in being able to fly at fast low altitudes.  But no other aircrews did the amount of training for this mission than the tornado crews.  They were the best at flying fast, low and at night.  It was for these missions that the RAF painted their Tornado GR1s in the wrap around desert pink as they were flying so low.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Modelkeenfan said:

The Tornado was designed as a fast low level attack bomber.  That is why the JP233 is designed to be used on the tornados.  The JP233 is designed to be dispensed at a 100 odd foot off the ground directly into the middle of runways.  The weapon was designed and made to be carried by the tornado.  The RAF pilots trained using the JP233 at these low fast altitudes at night time as a routine mission.  No other pilots in the world were trained for such missions with such weapons.  The Saudis had the JP233 capability as did the Italians but didn't train enough to fly at these fast low altitudes at night time required to use the JP233.  So the Saudis realised after the first night they simply didn't have enough training and thus the skills to use the JP233 at night in the fast low flying conditions required.  The US didn't have such a weapon designed to be used at such fast low altitudes at night so they too never trained specifically for these fast low level night time missions that the RAF tornado pilots were specifically trained to carry out.  So it wasn't a matter of the RAF commanders ordering their crews to carry out these attacks, the US planners used the tornado on these missions as they were aware the RAF tornados had the capability and skills required to do this mission, so the RAF were designated the low fast night time runway destruction missions to the tornados.  The Saudi planners probably thought they could also fly these missions but we're not aware they hadn't trained enough for these missions and after the first night, the pilots made their bosses aware of this and thus stopped after the first night. 

 

 

The point I'm trying to make is could the RAF commanders have thought of another option besides attacking at low-level in general or even using the JP233?  With regards to Tornado losses (including other nations), 9 out of 12 were at low-level.  The US CENTAF commander, describes how he essentially banned low level attacks / training during Desert Shield among his wing commanders even though that is what their crews trained for, unless they could argue why they should continue low-level.  He states he expected resistance but only the F-15E and F-111 commanders made the argument for low-level.  During Desert Shield, there were 3 USAF aircraft that crashed into the ground while training, and I believe a Jaguar and Tornado too.  The F-15E and the F-111, which were also optimized for low-level, started the war with low-level attacks.  These wing commanders soon moved their tactics to medium altitude.  The F-15E barely had PGM capability at the beginning of the war so a lot of unguided bombs were dropped.  Besides the Tornado, there were other aircraft attacking airfields at low-level.  F-111, Intruders ... 

 

There is an interesting account in Every Man a Tiger, with Tom Clancy & Gen. Horner about a Saudi pilot successfully dropping delivering his JP233 down the length of his runway target.  Upon his return, the pilot recommended they stop low-level attacks.

 

I read in one document, that the JP233 was "marginally effective", as Iraqis would use high-pressure hoses to remove munitions.  The JP233 hasn't been used since the early days of Granby / Desert Storm.  What do air forces do now when attacking airfields?

 

Back to the A-10 specifically.  In February after a day two where shoot down and a wing commander returned with heavy damage, the wing commanders imposed restrictions on tactics.  These included a minimum altitude while attacking deeper targets, and also banning use of the GAU-8 gun unless providing close air support.  Banning use of the gun for an A-10 couldn't have been popular decision with their pilots, but necessary to protect them.

Speaking of paint schemes, it's interesting the A-10s didn't bother repainting their aircraft but kept their Euro camouflage.  Glad they did for my modeling perspective 😉

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All I could find, not really any DS details:

 

Quote

An evaluation of the unique Durandal "runway-buster" motor was performed at the Air Force Rocket Propulsion Laboratory beginning in 1982. The 20th Fighter Wing first tested the Durandal runway-buster bombs during Exercise Red Flag in January and February 1988. During the 1991 Gulf War the 20th Fighter Wing, flew F-111Es from Turkey, initially in low level night attacks on airfields, using the Durandal anti-runway weapon. 20th Wing flight commander Captain George Kelman said "there is nothing better at destroying a runway than a Durandal."

 

I found another link that said -107 was cleared on the F-16 but I didn't find any -107 references on f-16.net

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LikeLoI'llOne of the main problems I think in the gulf war was that NATO and particularly the UK up until the gulf war was still training and flying according to their "cold war" doctrine most the most likely enemy still being the Soviet Union and eastern europe.  Plus the UK just accident was seeing the introduction of new weapons like the paveway LGBs, targeting pods and the new ALARM missiles for use in the SEAD role entering service as was planned years before. The ALARM mssiles which wete to replace the old Martel Anti-Radiation Missile was planned to enter service just after the gulf war as too was the Paveway LGBs and the THIALD targeting pods but the UK was able to rush them into service in the middle of the operation GRANBY in the gulf war.  THE UK were very keen to get these new bombs pods and ALARMs into service to test them out in a real war so they did luckily.

 

So prior to the gulf war and at the start of the gulf war the o!d buccaneer bomber was the designated aircraft for the SEAD role carrying Martel missiles.  Years before the gulf war, the buccaneer was deemed to phased out and the tornado taking over most of the main ro!es for the RAF as the tornado GR1 designated strike bomber, tornado EF3 for the SEAD role and GR1A for the recon ro!e. Only one squadron of the 8 Tornado squadrons based in Germany had been trained in air refuelling prior to the invasion of Kuwait.  The reason being as the UK was still operating on the pretense that any future conflict would be in Europe and would not require them to air refuel as they were so close to Europe in the UK, they wouldn't need to refuel by air.  So again, the UK had to quickly train up all those squadrons based in Germany in air refuelling when they saw the possibility of being involved in a conflict other than in europe.

 

The UK wanted a weapon like the JP233 because they saw a need for a specific runway denial weapon to be used fast effectively against a huge airforce like the Soviet Union so as to deny them the capability of capturing airfields from them and allowing them to move quickly capturing ground and allowing the enemy to continue to give air support to ground forces at the frontline.  So that was the thinking for having specific weapon for this role.

 

Again when the RAF saw a conflict looming in the gulf, they immediately commenced over half their training hours to flying low, fast and flat in both day and night time in training specifically to deploy the JP233.  They did most of this training in Germany.  Now to deploy the JP233, they trained at the altitude of 100 to 150 feet on all day and night time training as the optimal altitude to deploy the JP233 were at those altitudes.  The tornados had TFR (terrain following radar) but it only worked to a minimum altitude of 200 feet.  So in order to fly at the 100 to 150 feet required, the pilot had to fly the tornado manually!!!!!!  YES MANUALLY.  And they had no night flying goggles to fly at night.  They had designed this scope type of hand held device for them but it was more of a hindrance than a help so they weren't used.

 

So to fly these missions using the JP233, they had to also fly straight and level commencing the bombing run well before the target and he to ensure they did move or even drift left of right a few feet as they would miss the target runway All together.  P!us the pilots said flying at such a low level, it felt like driving your car over continues rail lines or a deep rocky road due to the buffeting of the huge JP233 dispenders.  Then to cap it off, the enemy airfields are probably the most well defended places in enemy territory so was full of AAA batteries and SAMs.  The JP233 had two deployment settings for controlling the bomblets dispensing speed and it was either fast or slow.  This setting could be decided at the time the navigator was about to deploy the bomblets.  But all crews chose the fast setting to ensure they did not miss the runway targets.  The navigator would simply hold in this button and when all the bomblets had been deployed, this button also ensured the JP233 dispensers would be jettisoned from the aircraft.  The JP233 is once only use weapon.  

 

So you can see the skill, professionalism and the training it would have required to undertake these missions especially at night without night vision and the task loading on the crew flying it manually as well.  So these or do mission and that of the F4G wi!d weasels would have been the most dangerous of the war.  The other amazing thing is that the first tornado crews to deploy were the most experienced air crews usually all the instructors on tornados.  They did 3 month rotations.  So the first aircrews to deploy were rotated home just before the air war started replaced by the new aircrews mainly consisting of a lot of junior aircrews.  This resulted in most aircrews flying these missions as their first ever combat mission.  That I itself is also incredible.  Just for people's information if you didn't know, the actor Ewen McGregor's brother, Colin McGregor was a Tornado GR1 pilot who flew combat missions in the gulf war with 617 Squadron.

 

So to answer the question if the all low level flights were stopped due to them being too dangerous, this is said not to be the case. They say that after 5 days of these tornado missions, most of the Iraqi airfields had been smashed up and it was becoming clear that the Iraqi air airforce wasn't going to be the threat they first thought it were and as such these JP233 missions were not required to be flown anymore.  So the tornados switched to medium height strike missions using dumb bombs and then paveway LGBs and ALARM SEAD missions.

 

Which 107 bomb are you referring to?  The A-10s didn't carry them either.  I don't know which aircraft carried them.  I guess it's quite possible the odd one failed.

 

Thanks for the link as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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