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Way off topic. New Mustang Mach E


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1 hour ago, Mr.Happy said:

Berkut,

 

What can I say, I’m a Muscle Car fan and I miss Formula 1 when they had the V-12’s😓
 

However I’ll still watch it to this day.:punk:

 

Just a thought 💭

 I do think that Natural Gas ️ vehicles should be considered because they are a cleaner burning fuel source. Perhaps for the transportation industry; UPS, Fed X, Amazon, and other shipping companies might consider this as an alternative to electric vehicles. 
 

What a lot of people forget is that coal is a large component to electricity. Coal is more of a pollutant than Natural Gas. 
 

One thing is for certain, this is a subject that will burn up a lot of energy I’m sure. :rofl:


I hope we can continue this conversation / subject  with respect for one another believes. 

 

Stay safe and try to stay warm in the frozen tundra that is your beautiful Norway 🇳🇴 
 

Take care,

 

Mr.Happy 
 


you can buy a Ford or G.M. natural gas truck for sure; right now. But who would want one? If your gonna get rid of it in the 50K mileage area then your OK. After that your in trouble. The engines don't last but about a third as long. Yes there is at least one natural gas diesel out there, but it's also purely commercial in use. Funny thing about it is that it started out as the same engine Dodge used in the trucks. That idea has been replaced with something much better by the same company. But be thinking a lot of money as well. 

      They can hydrogenate coal into a water coal mixture that burns pretty clean, and the idea is in use right now. In the end  hydrogen fuel cells are the only componet that works well. The problem is that nobody will make them. Baldwin out of Canada is probably the biggest builder and Eco being number two. What is wanted is one that uses de-ionized water instead of pure hydrogen. It can be done, and has been done many times

gary

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Berkut said:

Still don't understand what is so special about that? The important thing for charge rate is the C rating/factor which is a factor between power of charging (or discharging) of a battery and its rated energy capacity. So lets say a 100kWh pack that uses 8 hours to charge will be charging at ~12,5kW or a C rate which is just 0,125. A friend of mine has been charging his Model S at like you describe for many years now, at 240V and ~16kW so it isnt exactly high tech or new tech. Chances are your mobile phone is charging at a higher C rate than what you are describing.

 

Not to mention if one uses charging stations then one circumvents the charger built (which is just a rectifier) in the car. And at those one can get C rates of 3.5 or so, at 250kW+ charging power. For discharging of a battery the C-rates are well above 6.

let me just say this and let it go. Electricity where I live is between twelve cents and fifteen cents a kilowatt hour. You charge a battery pack in twelve hours and go for five hundred miles while spending less than two dollars. That's what it's all about. 

glt

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12 minutes ago, ChesshireCat said:

But there's a lot more to that. In the past everybody had a problem with heat (think Teslas burning up). Then the idea of the ideal operating temperature was put in place (only one brand did this). This is where you cool the battery or actually heat the battery. Will not tell you how.

gary

Again sorry but what? Tesla's don't have fires at a different rate than other EV makers. And Tesla's rate compared to ICE rate is around 10 times lower meaning ICE is 10 times more likely to catch fire. ICE cars are literally propelled by an explosive and highly combustible high energy fuel. As to ideal operating temperature again that is not news? Every maker worth their salt have had active cooling and heating battery system. Not sure about the original Roadster but Model S and every other Tesla since it has had active cooling and heating system. All modern and "serious" EV's all have active heating and cooling battery system, it doesn't really make any sense not to have it other than silly cost cutting and pure laziness.

 

12 minutes ago, ChesshireCat said:

Yet all this is nothing but a stepping stone for what they really want. That's a hydrogen fuel cell 

gary

No. God no. Please God no. Fool cell's are terrible and make 0 sense whatsoever to be used in transport. Or essentially anything else but to produce trickle power and water.

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2 hours ago, ChesshireCat said:

let me just say this and let it go. Electricity where I live is between twelve cents and fifteen cents a kilowatt hour. You charge a battery pack in twelve hours and go for five hundred miles while spending less than two dollars. That's what it's all about. 

glt

Serious question.  Someone on tv brought up the all electric mandate that CA passed and the fact that the power grid cannot keep up with summer demand as it is in LA.  With a population of 4 Mil, let’s say there are 2 mil electric cars being charged on a regular basis.  What kind of additional power demand is LA alone looking at?

 

Had a guy we work with pull up next to me in my 2015 Mustang GT at the red light today. “Wanna race” as he was sitting on his electric motorcycle.  No way man, I know my limitations!  
 

i also wonder how folks will make those long road trips in the future.  My son did a cross country, non stop from Charleston SC to LA a few years ago with a friend. Something like 36 hours straight.  That would be a four day trip with having to recharge all the time.  

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Electric powered vehicles definitely have their place as local commuter vehicles.  But until the infrastructure and the charge times are in place and reasonable, conventional internal combustion vehicles (either a gas engine or a hybrid) are the only practical way to do a long distance "road trip"

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1 hour ago, habu2 said:

Electric powered vehicles definitely have their place as local commuter vehicles.  But until the infrastructure and the charge times are in place and reasonable, conventional internal combustion vehicles (either a gas engine or a hybrid) are the only practical way to do a long distance "road trip"

So what you’re saying is people won’t be able to escape California?  😆

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10 hours ago, Scott Smith said:

Serious question.  Someone on tv brought up the all electric mandate that CA passed and the fact that the power grid cannot keep up with summer demand as it is in LA.  With a population of 4 Mil, let’s say there are 2 mil electric cars being charged on a regular basis.  What kind of additional power demand is LA alone looking at?

The main issue here is peak demands and the strain on the power grid during certain times. If most people charge at night and the grid is half decent it should be doable but i am not familiar at all with the details of California's grid. In terms of electricity usage those 2 million cars would be about 10% of the whole states electricity use. For example; 2 000 000 cars x 30kWh/day* x 365 = ~22TWh. Total electricity production in California is 200TWh as of now.

 

*30kWh a day per vehicle is about 150miles/250km, most people dont drive that much in a day so i am showing somewhat extreme example.

 

9 hours ago, habu2 said:

Electric powered vehicles definitely have their place as local commuter vehicles.  But until the infrastructure and the charge times are in place and reasonable, conventional internal combustion vehicles (either a gas engine or a hybrid) are the only practical way to do a long distance "road trip"

10 hours ago, Scott Smith said:

i also wonder how folks will make those long road trips in the future.  My son did a cross country, non stop from Charleston SC to LA a few years ago with a

friend. Something like 36 hours straight.  That would be a four day trip with having to recharge all the time. 

 

First off i would say most people do these kind of trips between never and extremely rarely so it is a corner case. And i feel that driving for 36 hours straight is quite dangerous as well due to lack of good sleep and so on... However, to give some idea here is for example someone who drove 1500 miles in 25 hours and charging took 4 hours and 20 min out of those. Now, i assume this was mostly charging on superchargers V2 which are max 145kW or so. V3 chargers at 250kW and one of his pics shows charging at V3. There is another example of similar distance in the comments.

 

Distance between Charleston SC and LA is about 2500 miles so assuming the same charging and average speed as the example above it would take 42.5 hours or so to do the same trip in a Model 3. With only V3 chargers it would be significantly less, under 40 hours IMHO. And that is with todays technology. Certainly not 4 days, not even 2.

 

Edited by Berkut
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So looking at the link, one could "top off the tank" in roughly 20 min to 40 min?  That's not really all that bad.  I thought (zero experience with electric cars) it would take 4-6 hours to charge up that many depleted batteries.   I wonder why these kind of stats are not included in all the electric car commercials? 

I see marketing potential for recharge stations to offer "lounges" where drivers/passengers could pay a small fee to either sit back in a massage chair or even a quick gym workout while waiting. Restaurants, massage parlors (Yea, not the Nevada type you're thinking of) Lots of potential on the table. 

We even have a charging station here next door at work.  Not used that often, but folks are putting it to use when they need to. 

 

Back to the Mach-E though.  Ford is talking about doing an electric Mustang that uses the actual Mustang body.  That I would be a player for.  But slapping a pony on the front and Mustang tail lights on a 4 door crossover SUV and calling it a Mustang is a bridge too far for me.

 

This is a Mustang....

pncqNnw3j

Edited by Scott Smith
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58 minutes ago, Scott Smith said:

So looking at the link, one could "top off the tank" in roughly 20 min to 40 min? 

 

Takes about 15 min to add 170miles/270km. About 30min from 0 to 80% (adding about 280 miles of range). Optimally for a "speed run" and using V3 chargers only one would charge about 20min at a time and charging ~220 miles of range and then drive for another 200 miles etc. That would bring down the total charging time to around 2,5 hours compared to the 4,5hours in that 1500 miles example. For Mach-E specifically the story will be completely different. (IE much much worse)

 

58 minutes ago, Scott Smith said:

I wonder why these kind of stats are not included in all the electric car commercials?

 

Excellent question.😉 Tesla doesnt spend any money on any commercials or marketing whatsoever. And i am using Tesla because they are the bleeding edge right now. Other manufacturers doesnt have that kind of tech quite yet and they have an interest in keeping the business-as-usual and keep pumping out and selling ICE vehicles... Complicating matters further is the car dealership mafia.

 

58 minutes ago, Scott Smith said:

I see marketing potential for recharge stations to offer "lounges" where drivers/passengers could pay a small fee to either sit back in a massage chair or even a quick gym workout while waiting. Restaurants, massage parlors (Yea, not the Nevada type you're thinking of) Lots of potential on the table. 

We even have a charging station here next door at work.  Not used that often, but folks are putting it to use when they need to.

 

There is some of that already at supercharger stations and most (all?) have WiFi so one can watch Netflix/Youtube etc in the car. Generally speaking supercharger stations are at locations where there are shops as well to grab something to eat etc.

 

And nice Mustang!

Edited by Berkut
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3 hours ago, Berkut said:

*30kWh a day per vehicle is about 150miles/250km, most people dont drive that much in a day so i am showing somewhat extreme example.

 

 Yesterday I drove over 500 miles for my job.  I don't drive that far every day but I can't justify two vehicles, one for short local trips and another for long trips, especially since I would have to move all my tools and parts back and forth between the two depending on my destination.  Also charging stations aren't exactly easy to come by in the middle of BFE west Texas...

 

What I'm saying is grid capacity isn't the only hurdle.

 

.

Edited by habu2
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I just googled the Supercharge Stations and took a look at the map.  NE US is really heavy with locations.  I'm really surprised there aren't more along the I-95 corridor between DC and Fla.  They are spaced out well, but never having been to one I have no idea how many charge stations there are. OK, if you click on the location, it tells you how many charge stations are there, what wi-fi to use, business that sponsors it, etc.  

Another question:  The Supercharge Stations look like a Tesla owned operation.  Are all electric cars welcome? or is that an exclusive Tesla location?

 

Want to speed it up?  Add an Electric class to NASCAR racing.  Can you imagine the pit stops?  Pit crews sitting around in lawn chairs playing cards, driver playing candy crush on the touch screen. OK, now it's starting to sound like a GEICO commercial.  Ohh...I should submit that idea to them.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Berkut said:

Again sorry but what? Tesla's don't have fires at a different rate than other EV makers. And Tesla's rate compared to ICE rate is around 10 times lower meaning ICE is 10 times more likely to catch fire. ICE cars are literally propelled by an explosive and highly combustible high energy fuel. As to ideal operating temperature again that is not news? Every maker worth their salt have had active cooling and heating battery system. Not sure about the original Roadster but Model S and every other Tesla since it has had active cooling and heating system. All modern and "serious" EV's all have active heating and cooling battery system, it doesn't really make any sense not to have it other than silly cost cutting and pure laziness.

 

No. God no. Please God no. Fool cell's are terrible and make 0 sense whatsoever to be used in transport. Or essentially anything else but to produce trickle power and water.

must be a different Tesla than in the USA. The grand idea of heating and cooling a battery pack came from the Volt, and the concept is copyrighted. I assume your refering to fuel celled systems as ICE. They used them in the U.S. for years with zero incidents, although most were heavy commercial equipment. The only serious issue is refueling the containers, and getting it done. The water fuel cells have less explosive power than gasoline or diesel fuel. They just won't build them. I honestly think all your talking about is from some magazine article where the writer got a kick back (very common in Europe and Asia). I came from the folks that invented hybrid electric and strait electric servo drives. The car your talking about is using stolen intellectual property that is 1980 technology. This is 2021. 

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ICE = Internal Combustion Engine e.g. gasoline or diesel powered.  A fuel cell is not the same as ICE.

 

Yes gasoline is combustible, but have you ever seen a lithium battery burn?  There's a reason they aren't allowed to be shipped by air freight.

 

First responders get special training for EV accidents specific to the electrical systems in EV cars & trucks. 

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6 hours ago, habu2 said:

 

 Yesterday I drove over 500 miles for my job.  I don't drive that far every day but I can't justify two vehicles, one for short local trips and another for long trips, especially since I would have to move all my tools and parts back and forth between the two depending on my destination.  Also charging stations aren't exactly easy to come by in the middle of BFE west Texas...

 

What I'm saying is grid capacity isn't the only hurdle.

 

.

 

And that kind of driving is certainly not usual most people, especially not every day. And when it happens, i assume you had some break at that point during which one can realistically charge. But i obviously agree - the end game for EV's is to completely and utterly replace ICE vehicles and have enough range and price to do so. Having a short range EV and long range ICE is inefficient, one car should cover both cases. I would argue that for 99,9999% of the population the range part is solved, realistically 300+ miles/500 km is enough paired with fast charging. And technically if there is an electrical socket anywhere, there is a charging station... 🙂

 

5 hours ago, Scott Smith said:

The Supercharge Stations look like a Tesla owned operation.  Are all electric cars welcome? or is that an exclusive Tesla location?

 

They are Tesla in-house developed, Tesla built, Tesla maintained and paid for by Tesla. So right now they are Tesla exclusive. Tesla/Elon Musk has been pretty clear however that if other makers are willing to contribute to maintenance and expansion of the SC network they are more than welcome to be able to use them too.

 

21 minutes ago, ChesshireCat said:

must be a different Tesla than in the USA. The grand idea of heating and cooling a battery pack came from the Volt, and the concept is copyrighted. I assume your refering to fuel celled systems as ICE. They used them in the U.S. for years with zero incidents, although most were heavy commercial equipment. The only serious issue is refueling the containers, and getting it done. The water fuel cells have less explosive power than gasoline or diesel fuel. They just won't build them. I honestly think all your talking about is from some magazine article where the writer got a kick back (very common in Europe and Asia). I came from the folks that invented hybrid electric and strait electric servo drives. The car your talking about is using stolen intellectual property that is 1980 technology. This is 2021. 

 

Are you seriously trying to say that the concept of heating and cooling battery pack is GM's invented and copyrighted? You literally cannot copyright a concept. And there is nothing novel about figuring out that a battery needs to be cooled or heated. I am sure before EV's there have been heated/cooled battery packs in other applications. Volt's exact heating/cooling solution might be patented but the concept of heating/cooling certainly isn't. Besides, i checked and the original Tesla Roadster had battery cooling system atleast, no mention about heating so no idea there. And that car started deliveries 2 years before Volt so i suppose they stole the grand idea from daddy GM, from the future. And feel free to double check me but Model S has had heating/cooling battery system since day one. Same with Model 3 and Model Y although both of those use a different system from S. ICE is internal combustion engine, i am surprised you havent heard the term after working in the industry.

 

And my talking isn't from "some magazine article where the writer got a kick back" whatever that is meant to imply... My talking is from following EV's and their development daily for 13 years now. Atleast i am not making convoluted strange claims about 800 miles battery or the amazing tech of charging a battery overnight? Or that concepts can be copyrighted. 🙂

 

21 minutes ago, ChesshireCat said:

The car your talking about is using stolen intellectual property that is 1980 technology. This is 2021. 

bc514252cb16052291206dbc75c3d620.jpeg

 

9 minutes ago, habu2 said:

ICE = Internal Combustion Engine e.g. gasoline or diesel powered.  A fuel cell is not the same as ICE.

 

Yes gasoline is combustible, but have you ever seen a lithium battery burn?  There's a reason they aren't allowed to be shipped by air freight.

 

First responders get special training for EV accidents specific to the electrical systems in EV cars & trucks. 

 

First responders get special training because the way batteries burn/have thermal runaway is different that from a vanilla fire. That in itself doesnt imply one is worse than the other and the actual energy involved is far greater in gasoline. They just learn about the most effective ways to get a battery fire under control, as i am sure they learn about other scenarios.

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