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Help with 335TFS F-105 markings


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Folks, do any of you have a clear photo of the Native American chief artwork applied to the 335 TFS Thuds in their early scheme?  I have a few good photos but all of them were taken from an an angle, and some of the details are not clear. 

 

335tfs.jpg

Edited by KursadA
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2 hours ago, Ben Brown said:

I’ll take a look next time I get to my computer and see what I have. 

 

Hi Ben,

 

This snippet above is from the photos you have sent me years ago. There are some great shots there, but unfortunately not one that shows the emblem up close.

Most of the previously done decal artwork seems to be at least partially based on guesswork - I hope we can find a good photo.

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I just went through my National geographic, Vol 128. No 3, September, 1965 with several beautiful shots of aluminum lacquer Thuds, but not the 335th Chief.

Bunrin-Do FAOW #4 (May 1987) has a few off angle photos. Pages: 19-20; 73.  I will send you a .PDF. Squadron Signal #1107 F-105 Thud in Action has a photo on pg 8, drawing on pg 27.  And S/S SP1185 F-105 Thud in Action (new) has a nice color side graphic on pg 26. I will send these along via email.

 

Here is the early Indian Chief head that first appeared on a white bordered green horizontal band on the tail, then later moved to the nose.

866706206_Indian_Chief_Head(early).JPG.871a398af1e8f9deb48406bb6ad85811.JPG

 K/r, Dutch

Edited by Dutch
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Unfortunately, in the one full-on profile photo I have, the crew ladder is obscuring the Chief's badge. :doh:

lmPvM7A.jpg

 

However, I did just find a color photo of the emblem from F-105B 57-5832 that crashed at Eglin AFB in 1961. The panel was listed on Worthpoint as sold on eBay (LINK). The listing says it was from the 334th TFS, but none of my references have any photos of 4th F-105Bs with squadron markings except for the 335th. Perhaps the pilot was from the 334th?

DZlhUzL.jpg

 

Ben

 

Edited by Ben Brown
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Ben, Wow!  Where'd you find that treasure? Obviously I am not putting the right search parameters into my eBay searches!

 

Paul, Outstanding F-105D in 4th TFW markings!  I love it!

Edited by Dutch
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I found it on Google just last night. I can’t remember exactly what I put in the search parameters, but it was a little different from the ones I’ve used in the past. I tried searching eBay, but couldn’t find the original sale. I had thought you could search previous sales, but I never found it. I’d love to contact the seller to see if he took more photos of the panel.
 

Ben

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Is that a purple headband with white polka dots and a purple circle over the ear?  The artwork in S/S and the decals Paul Boyer used show a red headband & circle. I wonder if it is a color shift issue on the ebay photo?

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I think it is purple. The red triangle has stayed red and the other colors don’t seem to have faded much. The colors in those drawings (Larry Davis?) could be guesswork and the decals were based on that, or vice versa. 


Update: I figured out how to search for completed auctions, but it only goes back ~2 months.
 

Ben

Edited by Ben Brown
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1 hour ago, Ben Brown said:

I think it is purple. The red triangle has stayed red and the other colors don’t seem to have faded much. The colors in those drawings (Larry Davis?) could be guesswork and the decals were based on that, or vice versa. 


Update: I figured out how to search for completed auctions, but it only goes back ~2 months.
 

Ben

Ben, I agree with you!  Other color differences include the tips of the feathers which are dk tan or lt brown, the face is red, the headband & ear circle are purple.  Great find BTW, K/r, Dutch

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16 hours ago, Paul Boyer said:

Note that some D models received the green/white stripes as well before they went to "lookalike" aluminum painted finish and then camo. I made my early D from photos:

 

DSCN9033.JPG

880px-F-105-4fw-mycoy-1962.jpg

Paul, beautiful build.  Which kit?  Trumpeter or Revell?  Which decals?  Microscale?  K/r, Dutch

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It is the "new" Revell kit (from the late 80s, I think), not to be confused with the '50s Thud kit. I had to sand off the wartime stuff; vents, antennae, reinforcement panels, etc. Decals are indeed the old Microscale sheet, so if the colors on the Indian head are not right, no surprise there. To me it was the most colorful Thud (outside of the Thunderbird), and that's why I picked it. It really compliments the other "Century Series" jets:

 

DSCN9038.JPG

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2 hours ago, Paul Boyer said:

It is the "new" Revell kit (from the late 80s, I think), not to be confused with the '50s Thud kit. I had to sand off the wartime stuff; vents, antennae, reinforcement panels, etc. Decals are indeed the old Microscale sheet, so if the colors on the Indian head are not right, no surprise there. To me it was the most colorful Thud (outside of the Thunderbird), and that's why I picked it. It really compliments the other "Century Series" jets:

 

DSCN9038.JPG

Gorgeous! Just gorgeous!

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That F-105 panel is a great find - thanks! Whomever bought it is a lucky guy - I wish I had seen the auction while it was active.

The shape of the panel makes it easy to do perspective correction via software - so I think I am all set to design the most accurate reproduction of this badge to date. Thanks again!

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Because I was bored, I took a stab at color-correction, de-aging and perspective correction.  This is what I came up with.  

 

My guess is the tips of the feathers and the little triangle used to be much redder, but the paint faded.  I'd guess Insignia red? No basis for that, though.

 

DZlhUzL.jpg

Edited by kozlok
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Yeah the black and white artwork I sent you Kursad is utterly useless.  Not sure what its origin was for the publication, but it's really different in many ways.  Glad you have what you need and that it's going to result in a correct set of markings.  This project is now on my list of things to do once they hit the street in the future.  Thanks for taking it on.

 

Rick L.

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11 hours ago, kozlok said:

Because I was bored, I took a stab at color-correction, de-aging and perspective correction.  This is what I came up with.  

 

My guess is the tips of the feathers and the little triangle used to be much redder, but the paint faded.  I'd guess Insignia red? No basis for that, though.

 

DZlhUzL.jpg

@kozlok, I can't agree with your color shift theory.  If that were the case, the face and medium sized triangle would also have faded to a dull brown, which they haven't.  The colors on the panel are still pretty vibrant, meaning that they haven't baked in the sun for 60 years, but someone removed the panel from the airframe and stored it away from uv light.  There is some obvious rubbing and scratching on the panel, perhaps as a result of the accident, or from careless storage, but the colors are solid.  It would help if we knew the significance of the purple headband with white polka dots. Wasn't there a Thud Sqn in SEA assigned to the 23rd TFW that had a purple tailband with white polka dots before they switched to the two-letter tail codes?  Was it the 334th, 335th, 336th on assignmen tto PACAF?  My "Air Force Combat Wings, Lineage and Honors Histories 1947-1977" lists the 4th tactical Fighter Wing and 335th TFS, but only gives the Wing badge. It mentions periods of assignment for the 355th, and aircraft assigned to the wing by years, but not more specifics.  I will send a copy to Kursad.  K/r, Dutch

 

F-105_Thunderchiefs_refuel.thumb.jpg.48116746912ac30bde070772bd44e2ec.jpg

Edited by Dutch
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Those Ds with the polka dots are from the 334th TFS. They had blue bands. I haven’t been able to find out exactly when they were first applied, but it seems to have been done just before they deployed to SEA. The 335th removed the nose and tail bands and the chief’s head and went with green tail bands with a white V. Some also had a white chiefs head inside the V. Again, I haven’t been able to find out when the original markings were removed, but the new tail bands were applied right before the 335th’s SEA deployment. 
 

The purple might have been a nod to the F-86Hs of the 83rd Fighter Day wing that was based at SJAFB in the mid-50s before being taken over by the 4th. One of the squadrons had purple bands. 
 

Or, they could have used purple because it looked cool. 

BTW, I am loving nerding out on this stuff!🤓

 

Ben

Edited by Ben Brown
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On 2/12/2021 at 9:08 PM, Dutch said:

I just went through my National geographic, Vol 128. No 3, September, 1965 with several beautiful shots of aluminum lacquer Thuds, but not the 335th Chief.

Bunrin-Do FAOW #4 (May 1987) has a few off angle photos. Pages: 19-20; 73.  I will send you a .PDF. Squadron Signal #1107 F-105 Thud in Action has a photo on pg 8, drawing on pg 27.  And S/S SP1185 F-105 Thud in Action (new) has a nice color side graphic on pg 26. I will send these along via email.

 

Here is the early Indian Chief head that first appeared on a white bordered green horizontal band on the tail, then later moved to the nose.

866706206_Indian_Chief_Head(early).JPG.871a398af1e8f9deb48406bb6ad85811.JPG

 K/r, Dutch

Ben, I agree with you.  This is an artist's impression from the second Squadron/Signal Thud in Action book.  I think it is a pretty good representation of the chief's head profile, although, the colors may be off.  I do not know what the artist used for his subject.  Also, Mircoscale decals are notorious for wrong colors.  This is most likely from a cost perspective.  Adding more colors per sheet adds cost.  Hence the liberal color interpretation on most early brands of kit & aftermarket decals.  However, I will say that more recently Print Scale is also notorious for completely wrong colors.  I look forward to seeing Kursad's decals.  K/r, Dutch

Edited by Dutch
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