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Clear Coats problems


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Hi guys!

 

First, hope everyone is doing well and safe!

 

Second, it seems that I need a little help with clear coats. My main paints are MRP Lacquer paints and AK lacquer paints. From time to time I also use Tamiya acrylic colors. From what I understand, if you put an acrylic clear coat (gloss or flat) over those type of paints, there should be no problem or reaction between them. Also, you can use oils or enamels base products over this clear coats.

 

Am I right? I'm having a really hard time not having problems with clear coats. I have always wanted to use oils and enamel products for weathering, but I always have some kind of reaction with the clear undercoats.

 

What do you guys use for clear coats? I have tried AK Gauzy, Tamiya, Gunze, Ammo Mig and AK coats without success. I'm kind of lost as I can't seem to finish a kit the way I want. 

 

Thanks for the help!

 

Tato

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What kind of trouble? I usually use Mr Color (acrylic lacquer) or Hataka Orange (also acrylic lacquer) and occasionally MRP. I also usually use Tamiya X-22 (clear) as a gloss if needed and do any oils over the gloss. Many times the Mr Color and Hataka are smooth enough that decals can be applied directly though so the gloss coat isn’t always applied. I don’t do any heavy weathering with oils nor extensive rubbing off and haven’t had problems.

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Hi Chuck,

 

Thanks for your answer. My problems is that it seems that oils and enamel washes (like AMMO Mig or AK) are doing some kind of reaction with my arylic coats. From what I understand there souldn't be any kind of reaction as acrylic coats are very hard and take well enamles and oils. Right now I'm using AK 3rd generation acrylic coats, and still I'm having problems.

 

I'm kind of lost, as it seems that this works for everyone except for me.

 

Regards,

Tato 

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It's hard to tell what's going on without pics or more details, but these are the things I would question. Do you use a primer under your paint? what type of thinner do you use for the oils? I use odorless mineral spirits. do you wait long enough after your clear coats. For reference, I use Future for gloss, and I do absolutely nothing with the model for at least 48 hours. After that it is rock solid. Oils and enamels should not react with the paints you described without the acrylic coats, so you can give that a try. 

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5 hours ago, Janissary said:

It's hard to tell what's going on without pics or more details, but these are the things I would question. Do you use a primer under your paint? what type of thinner do you use for the oils? I use odorless mineral spirits. do you wait long enough after your clear coats. For reference, I use Future for gloss, and I do absolutely nothing with the model for at least 48 hours. After that it is rock solid. Oils and enamels should not react with the paints you described without the acrylic coats, so you can give that a try. 

 

Hi Janissary,

 

Thanks for your answer. To answer your questions:

1.- Yes, I always use primer before painting.

2.- For oils I'm using AK Mineral Spirits

3.- After each clear coat I wait at least 24 hours. In fact before I used oils, the model was at least untouched for 2 or 3 days, as I was unable to do any modeling. I have Future and did try to spray it on the model but couldn't get a uniform clear coat, so I put another coat of Tamiya X-22 with Mr. Leveling Thinner. Maybe that was the problem? After setting all the decals I gave another coat of Tamiya X-22 and wait 24 hours. After that a Flat coat of AK 3rd generation acrylics. I also wait 24 hours before doing anything with oils.

 

Here are some photos showing the problem. I was doing a pin wash with Ammo Mig PLW. After waiting like an hour, I started to remove the excess with a clean paper towel, but the flat coat started to peel. I had the problem on both wings.

5 hours ago, crackerjazz said:

I used to have problems with oil wash eating through paints and clear coats as well.  If you can find Mona Lisa Odorless Thinner it's the best one I've tried that hasn't reacted with any paint or clear coat.

 

Hi crackerjazz,

 

Thanks for your answer. I will look for that thinner. I think I can find it here.

 

Regards,

Tato

JJ-5-2.jpg

 

JJ-5-3.jpg

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Tato, if I followed what you did exactly, you did in this order:

 

1. Primer,

2. Paint, lacquer

3. Future,

4. XF 22 gloss,

5. decals

6. XF 22 gloss.

7. Flat AK acrylic.

8. pin panel line wash

 

What are you wiping the wash with, enamel? The flat coat act as a sponge, and may have absorbed the wash below. So when you wipe the wash hard enough, it takes tout he flat coat. What if you do the wash after gloss coat, except use tamiya panel line (enamal)? And use mineral spirit to clean up.

 

best of luck.

TrietCam

 

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On 4/25/2021 at 4:07 PM, trietmcam said:

Tato, if I followed what you did exactly, you did in this order:

 

1. Primer,

2. Paint, lacquer

3. Future,

4. XF 22 gloss,

5. decals

6. XF 22 gloss.

7. Flat AK acrylic.

8. pin panel line wash

 

What are you wiping the wash with, enamel? The flat coat act as a sponge, and may have absorbed the wash below. So when you wipe the wash hard enough, it takes tout he flat coat. What if you do the wash after gloss coat, except use tamiya panel line (enamal)? And use mineral spirit to clean up.

 

best of luck.

TrietCam

 

 

Hi TrietCam,

 

Thanks for your answer. You nearly nailed it. I did not use Future and the pin panel line wash was done after the second gloss coat. My problem starts when trying to use oils for weathering. From what I have read and understand (Ammo Mig Weathering magazines and some other books), oils work better with a flat coat (acrylic). I did it like that and that's when I started having problems. Could it be that may be I'm not letting the coats dry enough? 24 hours seems a reasonable time to let it dry. 

 

Thanks!

 

Regards,

Tato   

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Based on everything you described, my guess is that the problem is with the flat AK acrylic. I have no experience with that flat, so I have no idea how it behaves with oils or whether it needs more than 24 hours to cure. I have experience with everything else you noted and based on what you described, I don't think they are the culprit here.

 

Also, with the oil washes, if your goal is a panel wash, I think they go better if the surface is glossy before the flat. Oils on flat coats is common too but I'd use that more for light staining and as a filter to create some tonal variation. In that latter case, you should not need to 'remove' the wash by wiping it off. Basically you should need to wipe a wash clean only when you are trying to get the oils in the recessed details, and if that is your goal, it is best applied on a well-cured glossy surface.  

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Hi Janissay,

 

Thanks for your answer. I'm too starting to believe that the problem is wit the AK Flat Coat. Now has started to peel, so yes, that's the culprit.

 

May I ask what do you use as a flat coat? 

 

Thanks a lot!

 

Regards,

Tato

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Testors flat lacquer or Testors dull coat. Thinned with box store lacquer thinner or Mr. Color leveling thinner, misted on the surface aiming for a satin finish. Lately I downgraded to Testors flat with almost similar results to DC. But they sure look different in the bottle. I have tried a few acrylic flat coats, but didn't like the results at all (got chalky, milky results at times, or never cured completely remaining sticky). 

 

 

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Regarding panel line washes; if applied to a gloss finish, the oil’s capillary action will more likely keep the oil in the panel line and less effort will be needed to remove the excess. If the oils are applied on a flat coat the capillary action will also normally result in more spreading of the oil outside the panel lines and require more effort (rubbing) to remove the excess with a corresponding increase in the chance that the rubbing will react with the base layer.

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On 4/28/2021 at 5:07 PM, Janissary said:

Testors flat lacquer or Testors dull coat. Thinned with box store lacquer thinner or Mr. Color leveling thinner, misted on the surface aiming for a satin finish. Lately I downgraded to Testors flat with almost similar results to DC. But they sure look different in the bottle. I have tried a few acrylic flat coats, but didn't like the results at all (got chalky, milky results at times, or never cured completely remaining sticky). 

 

 

 

Hi Janissary,

 

Thanks! I too use Testors Dull Coat, by far the best flat coat available. But I always used it as a final coat. Have you ever had problems with using oils over Testors Dull Coat? I may try this.

 

On 4/28/2021 at 8:52 PM, Chuck1945 said:

Regarding panel line washes; if applied to a gloss finish, the oil’s capillary action will more likely keep the oil in the panel line and less effort will be needed to remove the excess. If the oils are applied on a flat coat the capillary action will also normally result in more spreading of the oil outside the panel lines and require more effort (rubbing) to remove the excess with a corresponding increase in the chance that the rubbing will react with the base layer.

 

Thanks Chuck for you answer. I do exactly the same as you describe, but lately I have been reading and watching lot of youtube videos where people use oils over flat coats (not for washes, but for general dirt and wear). May be that's my mistake, I should do it over a gloss coat as acrylics coats are not that great.

 

Thanks all!

 

Regards,

Tato

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