Spangdahlem loadouts F-4E's in the late 1980's

[Susaschka]

Hi all,

 

I'm new here and I hope that this is the place to post a question I have:

 

For one of my 1:48 projects, I'm planning to build a 81TFS Spangdahlem F-4E that I've seen in 1987.

All my models are wheels up builds and I do like interesting but realistic loadouts underneath my planes.

Searching the Internet I found several weapon loadouts for Spangdahlem F-4E's, but I'm wondering if other more interesting looking loadouts are possible.

 

I've enclosed a picture of several SEAD loadouts that I could find (green) and included the ones that I possibly would like to use (red).

Is there anybody here that can tell me if the loadouts in red are possible on a SEAD Spangdahlem F-4E in the late eighties?

 

Thanks in advance for any reply.

 

Erwin

[Stefan buysse]

Hi, Erwin.

 

The ones in red look feasable to me.

If it were my model, I'd do one with Mk82's and no AGM-45's. Just a personal preference, not that AGM-45's were no longer around.

As long ago as Vietnam, fighting SAM sites with AGM-45's was being compared to fighting a rattlesnake with a BBQ fork.

1987 was the last year for the Spangdahlem F-4E's, I gather. I saw one on static display at the Kleine Brogel show in 1987. It was the only time that I saw an active duty USAF F-4E. There was also an RAF EE Lightning in the static display. That too, was the only time I saw one except for on dumps or in museums.

 

Cheers, Stefan.    

[Susaschka]

Hi Stefan,

 

Thanks for your reply.

 

I'm also leaning towards the 18x Mk.82 loadout, but 4x AGM-45 also sounds very nice.

However, since I'm not sure if F-4E's could carry AGM-45's on the outboard pylons and, I won't choose this option unless I can get confirmation.

Hopefully somebody here knows the answer to this question.

 

Funny detail: The F-4E 74-0642/SP at Kleine-Brogel in 1987 you mention is exactly the one I was talking about.

For me it also has been the only operatioal Spang F-4E I've ever seen and it will be this exact example that I'm going to build.

Enclosed my only (crappy) shot I have of this beautiful bird.

 

Erwin

Edited May 16, 2021 by Susaschka

[falcon91352]

As one of the very few Spangdahlem aviation spotters of the second half of the 80's (fence guests normally were sent away from the base Security Forces or German Polizei and Spangdahlem and Bitburg), I can tell you, that the captive ordnance shown on the above official USAFE pictures is only posed for propaganda purposes and have nothing to do with the daily training routine at the 52nd TFW of this time.

 

The every day loadout of a Spangdahlem F-4 was an AN/ALQ-131 on station 4, two underwing 370gal. fuel tanks on 1 and 9 and a 600gal. F-15 style centerline fuel tank on 5. The origial 500gal. centerlines were randomly seen until Fall 1985 on af few planes. Sometimes, an AIM-9J was carried on underwing station 2 on a F-4E and -G, but rarely each one on both stations 2 and 8. An occasional loadout on a F-4G was a dummy AGM-45 body (without stabs) on station 2 or 8, as well as a TER with one AGM-88 on these stations, too.

 

Interesting during the years 1985-87 was the mix of different camouflage schemes. Since late Summer 1983 the Euro-One scheme was introduced with the 52nd TFW and progressively replaced the SEA schemes, either the one with light grey belly or the wrap-around. However, at least one F-4E at Spangdahlem never got the Euro One. It was F-4E 72-407 from 23rd TFW, which I have photographed in the SEA scheme (with grey belly) in late April 1987, shortly it was replaced by the F-16C Block 30.

 

Hopefully, these informations are quite helpful. I am eagerly waiting for the Z-M F-4G and late -E in 1:48 to model my memories from the most exciting times at Spangdahlem AB.

[falcon91352]

Just found this interesting picture at www with two captive AGM-45.

[achterkirch]

20 minutes ago, falcon91352 said:

Just found this interesting picture at www with two captive AGM-45.

That’s a G but I have seen a few pic of E’s from spang that had captive AGM-45’s. 

[Susaschka]

7 hours ago, falcon91352 said:

As one of the very few Spangdahlem aviation spotters of the second half of the 80's (fence guests normally were sent away from the base Security Forces or German Polizei and Spangdahlem and Bitburg), I can tell you, that the captive ordnance shown on the above official USAFE pictures is only posed for propaganda purposes and have nothing to do with the daily training routine at the 52nd TFW of this time.

 

The every day loadout of a Spangdahlem F-4 was an AN/ALQ-131 on station 4, two underwing 370gal. fuel tanks on 1 and 9 and a 600gal. F-15 style centerline fuel tank on 5. The origial 500gal. centerlines were randomly seen until Fall 1985 on af few planes. Sometimes, an AIM-9J was carried on underwing station 2 on a F-4E and -G, but rarely each one on both stations 2 and 8. An occasional loadout on a F-4G was a dummy AGM-45 body (without stabs) on station 2 or 8, as well as a TER with one AGM-88 on these stations, too.

 

Interesting during the years 1985-87 was the mix of different camouflage schemes. Since late Summer 1983 the Euro-One scheme was introduced with the 52nd TFW and progressively replaced the SEA schemes, either the one with light grey belly or the wrap-around. However, at least one F-4E at Spangdahlem never got the Euro One. It was F-4E 72-407 from 23rd TFW, which I have photographed in the SEA scheme (with grey belly) in late April 1987, shortly it was replaced by the F-16C Block 30.

 

Hopefully, these informations are quite helpful. I am eagerly waiting for the Z-M F-4G and late -E in 1:48 to model my memories from the most exciting times at Spangdahlem AB.

 

Hi Falcon91352,

 

Thanks for your reply and information.

 

I will indeed use either the two wingtanks or the centerline tank on my F-4E and use the rest of the stations for armament.

At the moment I'm leaning towards the 18 Mk.82's on 2 MER's and 2 TER's, but I will consider four AGM-45 Shrikes when I know for sure they could be loaded on stations 1 and 9.

My F-4E will wear the European One camo and I will use the Hasegawa PT-8 F-4E with Eduard armament.

 

Besides this F-4E, I will also be building a Spangdahlem F-4G from the early nineties in a Hill Grey camo armed with four AGM-88 HARM's.

 

Erwin

Edited May 16, 2021 by Susaschka

[Susaschka]

8 hours ago, achterkirch said:

That’s a G but I have seen a few pic of E’s from spang that had captive AGM-45’s. 

 

Hi Achterkirch,

 

I did find this picture online from a Spangdahlem F-4E with two AGM-45's that I really like and I just hope I can find out if they could also be carried on stations 1 and 9.

 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Susaschka

[ElectroSoldier]

Did the "SP" F-4E jets never use the AGM-65 on a SEAD mission?

[Stefan buysse]

Hi, Erwin.

 

I can not say that with 100% certainty, but I do believe that the AGM-45 could be carried on stations 1 and 9 of the F-4E.  

 

After Desert Storm, I talked about ordnance with an F-4G pilot.

He said: "AGM-78?!? Ancient history! Never in DS. Mostly AGM-88, but a couple of AGM-45's were still around. We didn't really want them. Once I was given an F-4G loaded with 4 of them and they said: just go out and don't come back with them". 

So, that was an F-4G, but I do not see any reason why F-4E outer pylons could not do the same.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

[Susaschka]

2 minutes ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Did the "SP" F-4E jets never use the AGM-65 on a SEAD mission?

 

Hi Electrosoldier,

 

I really don't know if the F-4E's based at Spangdahlem ever used the AGM-65 and since I've never seen a picture of a AGM-65 loaded one them, I've never considered them.

 

Erwin

[Susaschka]

5 minutes ago, Stefan buysse said:

Hi, Erwin.

 

I can not say that with 100% certainty, but I do believe that the AGM-45 could be carried on stations 1 and 9 of the F-4E.  

 

After Desert Storm, I talked about ordnance with an F-4G pilot.

He said: "AGM-78?!? Ancient history! Never in DS. Mostly AGM-88, but a couple of AGM-45's were still around. We didn't really want them. Once I was given an F-4G loaded with 4 of them and they said: just go out and don't come back with them". 

So, that was an F-4G, but I do not see any reason why F-4E outer pylons could not do the same.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

 

Hi Stefan,

 

There are some differences between the F-4E and F-4G's, like (as far as I know) the fact that the F-4E wasn't able to use the AGM-78 and AGM-88  missiles.

It seems logical that if a F-4e can carry AGM-45's on the inboard stations they also could be carried on the outboard stations, but I'm looking for confirmation.

 

Erwin

[Niels]

The F-4G carried 4x AGM-88 during Dessert Storm 1991 on missions over Kuwait. For longer missions, 2x AGM-88 and fuel tanks was the norm. AGM-45 was used aswell in this period, expending the last stock of that missile. 

In general, there is nothing preventing the F-4E from carrying and firing the AGM-45/AGM-88, however only the F-4G has the tracking required to make the most of them. 

[ST0RM]

23 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Did the "SP" F-4E jets never use the AGM-65 on a SEAD mission?

That's what I was thinking as well. Given that the E's worked with the G, AGM-65s would be the suitable weapon for the follow-on DEAD role. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by ST0RM

[Susaschka]

22 hours ago, Niels said:

The F-4G carried 4x AGM-88 during Dessert Storm 1991 on missions over Kuwait. For longer missions, 2x AGM-88 and fuel tanks was the norm. AGM-45 was used aswell in this period, expending the last stock of that missile. 

In general, there is nothing preventing the F-4E from carrying and firing the AGM-45/AGM-88, however only the F-4G has the tracking required to make the most of them. 

 

Yes you are right that F-4E's can fire the AGM-45's when targetting is provided by a F-4G, but can it carry four of them is the answer I'm looking for. 🙂

 

 

42 minutes ago, ST0RM said:

That's what I was thinking as well. Given that the E's worked with the G, AGM-65s would be the suitable weapon for the follow-on DEAD role. 

 

Indeed AGM-65's can be carried on F-4E's but in my opinion the AGM-65 is not a very pretty missile as it is quite bulky. 

HARM's and Shrike's are much sleeker and nicer to look at, so that's why I'm not considering them. 🙂

Edited May 17, 2021 by Susaschka

[Niels]

Yes, they can carry 4x AGM-45

McDonnell Douglas F-4E Phantom II Loading Reference (cybermodeler.com)

Edited May 17, 2021 by Niels

[Susaschka]

1 hour ago, Niels said:

Yes, they can carry 4x AGM-45

McDonnell Douglas F-4E Phantom II Loading Reference (cybermodeler.com)

 

Thank you so much!

I found a lot of different weapon configuration charts browsing the Internet, but I didn'd find this one. 🙂 🙂 

Very happy, so now I only have do decide if I will go for the Mk.82's or Shrike's.

[BillS]

I was never stationed at Spang but had a close friend who flew weasles there. To be authentic, training sorties would most likely be a single captive carry AGM-88 and or AGM-65. Mavs might not be your fav but they were probably one of the most common weapons carried. A captive carry AIM-9 would be appropriate as would the ALQ-131. Tank configuration would most typically be 2x370s. Three tanks were as rare as hen’s teeth due to the drag which used up the fuel in the third tank.

[Susaschka]

8 hours ago, BillS said:

I was never stationed at Spang but had a close friend who flew weasles there. To be authentic, training sorties would most likely be a single captive carry AGM-88 and or AGM-65. Mavs might not be your fav but they were probably one of the most common weapons carried. A captive carry AIM-9 would be appropriate as would the ALQ-131. Tank configuration would most typically be 2x370s. Three tanks were as rare as hen’s teeth due to the drag which used up the fuel in the third tank.

 

Thanks for the info, I didn't know that 3 fueltanks would cause so much drag and that carrying 3 tanks was so rare.

 

I also read that sometimes the front two stations 4 and 6 would be empty or carry ECM pods as there was a clearance issue between the Sparrow rear fins and the centre fueltank.

Apparently this meant the centerline tank required jettisoning before the front missiles could be launched? 

Does anyone know if this is really the case?

 

As for the weapons loadout: I like mine to have an interesting, full live weapons loadout that could actually be possible. It doesn't have to be 100% authentic for day to day sorties, but must at least be possible. 🙂

 

At the moment I've narrowed my choices down to the two options below.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Susaschka

[Niels]

Its a bit confusing - are you looking to load her up with a possible but seldom used load or are you looking for a training load or something else? 
Weapons loads are subject to the same principle whatever unit whener in time: What and where is the target and what is your objective? 

Full load of 18x MK 82 causes a lot of drag and reduce your range, while a lighter load gives you a longer reach. Still there is A2A refueling, which supports the mission along the way. 

Both of the loads you have listed above is both possible and have been used in the past, although the full load of Mk 82's have seldom been seen after the VietNam war? 

 

On this page you will find the actual loads carried by the 52TFW during Dessert Storm, it should give you the real deal F-4E/G and RF-4C "Phantom II" (dstorm.eu)

[Susaschka]

On 5/18/2021 at 7:46 AM, Niels said:

Its a bit confusing - are you looking to load her up with a possible but seldom used load or are you looking for a training load or something else? 
Weapons loads are subject to the same principle whatever unit whener in time: What and where is the target and what is your objective? 

Full load of 18x MK 82 causes a lot of drag and reduce your range, while a lighter load gives you a longer reach. Still there is A2A refueling, which supports the mission along the way. 

Both of the loads you have listed above is both possible and have been used in the past, although the full load of Mk 82's have seldom been seen after the VietNam war? 

 

On this page you will find the actual loads carried by the 52TFW during Dessert Storm, it should give you the real deal F-4E/G and RF-4C "Phantom II" (dstorm.eu)

 

Sorry for the confusion, I just like my F-4E to have an interesting loadout with live weapons that could actually be possible. For me it's a model and it should look as nice/interesting as possibe.  😎 

 

Thanks for the link to the website showing actual loads carried by the 52TFW during Desert Storm.

In the F-4E configuration I see that CBU-87's are fitted below a pair of AIM-9's on station 2. Am I interpreting this correctly?

A few days ago I've read a story about a somebody that was trying to find out if USAF F-4's ever used AIM-9's and bombs at the same time on stations 2 and/or 8 just like the Navy and Marines F-4's did.

Besides some pictures of USAF F-4's in museums, he wasn't able to find any photographic proof of operational USAF F-4's that used this loadout, so I'm uncertain if this configuration was ever used like this.

 

Have you seen any pictures of F-4E's carrying this loadout?

Edited July 3, 2021 by Susaschka

[Niels]

Yes, this config goes back to ~1967 and Col Robin Olds who where one of the first to pioner this solution. There is plenty of pictures online showing it. 
For Dessert Storm, the 3TFW usually basd at Clark AFB, Philippines, arrived late to the party, and they used in addition a special adaptor to increase the distance between the TER with bombs and the missile rails. But this was special for this unit as far as I know. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Niels

[Niels]

You should also give Google a try - plenty of info available online
F-4E Weapons load photos – Google Søk

 

[Susaschka]

4 hours ago, Niels said:

Yes, this config goes back to ~1967 and Col Robin Olds who where one of the first to pioner this solution. There is plenty of pictures online showing it. 
For Dessert Storm, the 3TFW usually basd at Clark AFB, Philippines, arrived late to the party, and they used in addition a special adaptor to increase the distance between the TER with bombs and the missile rails. But this was special for this unit as far as I know. 

 

Then you are doing a lot better then me, because I can't find a single operational picture of a F-4E loaded with AIM-9's and bombs on stations 2 + 8. 

All I can find are Navy, Marines, museum, digital (pc) and plastic models using this configuration.

I also read that only Clark F-4E's were apparently using this adapter to carry a TER underneath the AIM-9's, but again I'm unable to find any photographic proof.

 

 

4 hours ago, Niels said:

You should also give Google a try - plenty of info available online
F-4E Weapons load photos – Google Søk

 

 

Trust me, I really did. 😎 

 

Lets leave it here, because my initial questions have been answered and I have enough info to figure out which loadout I'm going to use.

If anyone does manage to find any pictures of operational F-4E's with this config (AIM-9's and bombs on stations 2+8) , please post them here as I would really want to see these.

 

Thanks to all that helped me figure this out. It is much appriciated!

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Susaschka

[Niels]

Seek, and you shall find;
McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II - Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia