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VF-84 F-4B from Tamiya Kit?


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Hi,

 

For a 1965 VF-84 B-model (and the decals that I'm aware of are for 64-65), you need a "slick" cap for the tail, Mk 5 seats and leave off the antenna's on the spine.

I test-fitted the Academy fin cap: the length is perfect, but it is at least twice as wide as the Tamiya fin cap. Luckily, there are aftermarket caps (Flying Leathernecks). 

I'd use Tamiya parts P26-27 under the radome. I think that's the right shape, although I believe that the real contents of that housing were not the same in 1972 as in 1965. 

Use the unslotted stabs.

Do not install the trunnion covers (Tamiya parts N25 andN26).

I think that covers most of it.

 

Cheers, Stefan. 

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9 hours ago, Stefan buysse said:

Hi,

 

For a 1965 VF-84 B-model (and the decals that I'm aware of are for 64-65), you need a "slick" cap for the tail, Mk 5 seats and leave off the antenna's on the spine.

I test-fitted the Academy fin cap: the length is perfect, but it is at least twice as wide as the Tamiya fin cap. Luckily, there are aftermarket caps (Flying Leathernecks). 

I'd use Tamiya parts P26-27 under the radome. I think that's the right shape, although I believe that the real contents of that housing were not the same in 1972 as in 1965. 

Use the unslotted stabs.

Do not install the trunnion covers (Tamiya parts N25 andN26).

I think that covers most of it.

 

Cheers, Stefan. 


Thank you!

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Zouki ****’s “clean”fin cap fits perfectly. You could scrounge the DECM intake antennas from Academy and cobble together an N. Pay attention to blade antenna and NFO’s cockpit but rhis is a doable conversion either way.

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Here's the actual rundown of the VF-84 Phantoms.  🏴‍☠️

 

They were one of the earlier squadrons to get the then-new F-4B, without the aerial at the top trailing edge of the tail.  They were initially painted with the "waving-pirate-flag" tail and a yellow band on the fuselage with black chevrons.  It was in this livery that they deployed to Vietnam in '65 (before the MiG threat emerged).  At this time they were on the USS Independence.  I have a newspaper account of the story of one of their 'Nam birds with a tree mission marking on the intake.

 

When they returned from 'Nam the F-4B's were repainted with solid black tails, and reversed the colors of the fuselage bands.  In this scheme they continued to operate from the Independence. 

 

In '67 they transitioned to the F-4J.  They did one cruise with the J's on the Independence, then the air wing was transferred to the USS FD Roosevelt.  This posed a problem.  The Roosevelt was an older carrier built at the end of WW2 and despite modernization could not handle the higher landing weights of a fueled F-4J (heavier than a B).  This meant they could make fewer landing approaches without having to head to the tanker to refuel if they were missing approaches.  This was a safety factor to consider; so although they did 3 cruises with J's on the FDR, they eventually reverted to B's again.  Now they could land with a better safety margin for fuel.

 

They did one cruise with B's from '73-'74, and then received N's (rebuilt B's) which were used for one more cruise in '75, both aboard the FDR. 

 

After the single "N" cruise they began to transition to the F-14A, while the entire air wing was moved to the Nimitz.

 

And there is the Jolly Rogers Phantom history in a nutshell. 🏴‍☠️

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14 minutes ago, Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy said:

Here's the actual rundown of the VF-84 Phantoms.  🏴‍☠️

 

They were one of the earlier squadrons to get the then-new F-4B, without the aerial at the top trailing edge of the tail.  They were initially painted with the "waving-pirate-flag" tail and a yellow band on the fuselage with black chevrons.  It was in this livery that they deployed to Vietnam in '65 (before the MiG threat emerged).  At this time they were on the USS Independence.  I have a newspaper account of the story of one of their 'Nam birds with a tree mission marking on the intake.

 

When they returned from 'Nam the F-4B's were repainted with solid black tails, and reversed the colors of the fuselage bands.  In this scheme they continued to operate from the Independence. 

 

In '67 they transitioned to the F-4J.  They did one cruise with the J's on the Independence, then the air wing was transferred to the USS FD Roosevelt.  This posed a problem.  The Roosevelt was an older carrier built at the end of WW2 and despite modernization could not handle the higher landing weights of a fueled F-4J (heavier than a B).  This meant they could make fewer landing approaches without having to head to the tanker to refuel if they were missing approaches.  This was a safety factor to consider; so although they did 3 cruises with J's on the FDR, they eventually reverted to B's again.  Now they could land with a better safety margin for fuel.

 

They did one cruise with B's from '73-'74, and then received N's (rebuilt B's) which were used for one more cruise in '75, both aboard the FDR. 

 

After the single "N" cruise they began to transition to the F-14A, while the entire air wing was moved to the Nimitz.

 

And there is the Jolly Rogers Phantom history in a nutshell. 🏴‍☠️

 

That's awesome and thank you!  I have the Vagabond Decals "Dem Bones" (https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/decals/vag/decal_vag_48002.shtml) sheet I was planning to use.  I am wanting to do a black tail/black fuselage stripe bird.

 

The sheet lists the top option as an F-4B SEA cruise in 1965.  Based on your information, that wouldn't have been an SEA cruise, correct?  But could have been flown stateside from 66-67?

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Yes, the 65 cruise was SEA, specifically it was a combat cruise to Vietnam.  This despite being an east-coast squadron.  Probably it was so as not to put all the combat burden on the west coast units.  I corresponded for a time with a VF-84 pilot who was shot down in 'Nam and held POW for 7 years; his wry response was that they just had to send the best....

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Just now, Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy said:

Yes, the 65 cruise was SEA, specifically it was a combat cruise to Vietnam.  This despite being an east-coast squadron.  Probably it was so as not to put all the combat burden on the west coast units.  I corresponded for a time with a VF-84 pilot who was shot down in 'Nam and held POW for 7 years; his wry response was that they just had to send the best....


Would they have been on that cruise with black tails? Or the waving flag on the tail?

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The black tails appeared as they were returning in late 65, so they would have had the flag-tails in combat.  I have one photo that suggests they were transitioning during the cruise, must have been on the way home.  Can't imagine they bothered with repainting markings in the middle of combat.  Once home in Jan '66 they were all black.

 

Edited by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy
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2 minutes ago, Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy said:

The black tails appeared as they were returning in late 65.  I have one photo that suggests they were transitioning during the cruise, must have been on the way home.  Can't imagine they bothered with repainting markings in the middle of combat.  Once home in Jan '66 they were all black.

 


Got it. I wasn’t very clear why I was asking. The scheme on that sheet labeled as an F-4B “1965 SEA cruise” is a black tail, black fuselage stripe. 

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Well, the Vietnam cruise was their very first cruise with the Phantom; interesting being sent into combat on their first deployment with the new plane (a practice repeated when the Jolly Rogers got their Super Hornets).  

 

Here's the photo I find so interesting, showing the squadron in transition during deployment; on the left you see both tail styles, both with yellow band.  On the right, is one more JR plane with the tail sprayed in primer, ready for the new markings.  I suppose it's POSSIBLE they did it on the way out to the combat zone, although my first thought is they probably would've been more concerned with preparing for war than preparing for paint.  All I do know for a fact is that whey they arrived back at NAS Oceana from Vietnam they were black-tailed and black-banded.

0A9nqhB.jpg

Edited by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy
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Hi,

 

I forgot about the ECM antenna's on the underside.

I believe you should leave off Tamiya parts N30, N31, N33 and N34. So, don't open up the holes for them either (step 16 in the Tamiya instructions).

Here is an incredible source of infomation about the evolution of the ECM fit on Navy Phantoms:

 The Phantom Phacts: EW

Luckily for the VF-84 builders, 1965 wasn't that complicated.🙂

This also affects the tailcone. The kit instructions use part B6 which has subtle representations of antenna's. Part B5 has no such things, but the hole in B5 is shaped a bit differently than the one in B6.

I'm not sure if it's best to simply use B5 or use B6 after sanding off the antenna's. Maybe B5 is intended for an Air Force Phantom?

 

Cheers, Stefan. 

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On 7/13/2021 at 3:08 AM, Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy said:

Well, the Vietnam cruise was their very first cruise with the Phantom; interesting being sent into combat on their first deployment with the new plane (a practice repeated when the Jolly Rogers got their Super Hornets).  

 

Here's the photo I find so interesting, showing the squadron in transition during deployment; on the left you see both tail styles, both with yellow band.  On the right, is one more JR plane with the tail sprayed in primer, ready for the new markings.  I suppose it's POSSIBLE they did it on the way out to the combat zone, although my first thought is they probably would've been more concerned with preparing for war than preparing for paint.  All I do know for a fact is that whey they arrived back at NAS Oceana from Vietnam they were black-tailed and black-banded.

0A9nqhB.jpg

The people who spray them also do all the maintenance?

 

The change of the tail markings from a flag to solid black I can understand as its just a style, but the change of colour from a yellow band with black chevrons to a black band with yellow chevrons seems like a big change to me that must have had a strong reason behind it.

Any idea what that reason was? 

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Not to hijack  ESzczesniak's thread but I have a question. I have the Tamiya B kit but I also have the Academy kit and that's where my question comes from. The original Academy B kit as built by instructions a late B correct? Which has the slotted stabs ( Fencing facing wrong way from what I have read ). SO if my understanding of this is correct and for those of you that know please correct or help me with this? The Academy kit can be built as an N correct? Other than the intake antennas and the slotted stabs. WHat other part numbers are needed to convert it to an N bird? I have plans to build the Phantom family that my Squadron (VFA-151) flew when they were in Phantoms. I have the B,J & S just need to convert one to an N and source decals for the J. Thanks for any information!

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On 7/15/2021 at 10:00 AM, ElectroSoldier said:

The people who spray them also do all the maintenance?

 

The change of the tail markings from a flag to solid black I can understand as its just a style, but the change of colour from a yellow band with black chevrons to a black band with yellow chevrons seems like a big change to me that must have had a strong reason behind it.

Any idea what that reason was? 

VF-61 was the previous name holder of "Jolly Rogers", when they were decommissioned, VF-84 "Vagabonds" took up the name and traditions of the Jolly Rogers. They had the stripes on their aircraft, the yellow bands with black chevrons called "Vagabond Stripes". The squadron carried those over to their new identity. 

The color switch was probably just the squadron making them their own ...

 

HTHs ...

 

-Gregg

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3 hours ago, tosouthern66 said:

Not to hijack  ESzczesniak's thread but I have a question. I have the Tamiya B kit but I also have the Academy kit and that's where my question comes from. The original Academy B kit as built by instructions a late B correct? Which has the slotted stabs ( Fencing facing wrong way from what I have read ). SO if my understanding of this is correct and for those of you that know please correct or help me with this? The Academy kit can be built as an N correct? Other than the intake antennas and the slotted stabs. WHat other part numbers are needed to convert it to an N bird? I have plans to build the Phantom family that my Squadron (VFA-151) flew when they were in Phantoms. I have the B,J & S just need to convert one to an N and source decals for the J. Thanks for any information!

 

Hi,

 

I think you'd be OK with the Academy kit. There may be some detail differences in the cockpit, but I don't know as cockpits aren't really my thing. I do not think that the cockpit of a late "B" differs substantially from an "N". Nothing as obvious as the large square PTID that was in late F-14B's.

 

If you want a really super awesome F-4N, you could wait for what Hypersonic Models makes to convert the Tamiya F-4B. I gather that Jeffrey (Hypersonic) is looking at making such a set. He found that the Academy intake antenna's are lacking in length and could be better shaped. 

I'm pretty sure that you could also use the Hyeprsonic antenna's when they appear on the Academy kit.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

 

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10 hours ago, GreyGhost said:

VF-61 was the previous name holder of "Jolly Rogers", when they were decommissioned, VF-84 "Vagabonds" took up the name and traditions of the Jolly Rogers. They had the stripes on their aircraft, the yellow bands with black chevrons called "Vagabond Stripes". The squadron carried those over to their new identity. 

The color switch was probably just the squadron making them their own ...

 

HTHs ...

 

-Gregg

Oh I see.
That is interesting.

 

Are the bones still in use?

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1 hour ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Oh I see.
That is interesting.

 

Are the bones still in use?

 

Yes, VFA-103 now carry the "Bones" . in 1995, VF-103 Sluggers took on the moniker of the Jolly Rogers after VF-84 was disestablished. 

 

-Gregg

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1 hour ago, stalal said:

Does the F-4B kit includes the top tail section without the antenna? 

No, just the tip with the antenna. Flying Leatherneck has released two new plug in tips with different configurations though to cover the different options

Edited by Brenhen
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