Thadeus Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 I seem to remember a picture of armed VF-84 Phantoms, one with flag and the other with black tail. Of course I can't find it right now, but I remember searching for it when I was checking out the Eduard Good Morning Da Nang boxing of Academy Phantom. The cruisebook was my first guess, but I did not find anything there. https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv62-65/index.html There are quite a few pictures online of black tailed Phantoms with AG tailcode and the Gulf of Tonkin Yacht Club Badge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thadeus Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 Ok, I found one new pic that might support the black tails in combat theory. I have no idea on the context, nor the date or the autenticity of the picutre, as I'm in the EU and the article is forbidden to acces from my neck of the woods. Looks like some flak damage. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fbloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com%2Fbillingsgazette.com%2Fcontent%2Ftncms%2Fassets%2Fv3%2Feditorial%2F5%2Fbc%2F5bcf245f-2782-56c4-a835-2db4c946d983%2F5642173eb794d.image.jpg%3Fresize%3D1200%2C967&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fbillingsgazette.com%2Fspecial-section%2Fnews%2Fvets%2Fi-got-to-figure-out-a-way-to-get-out-of-this-i-got-to%2Farticle_7e025b53-7102-52ae-a3e7-e3103aaee2ab.html&tbnid=6zBYVHwNe2a1DM&vet=10CJMBEDMoqQFqFwoTCPDL3b779PECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAC..i&docid=0z4rS9IphQiuVM&w=1200&h=967&q=vf-84 Tonkin gulf&client=firefox-b-d&ved=0CJMBEDMoqQFqFwoTCPDL3b779PECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAC Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spruemeister Posted July 25, 2021 Share Posted July 25, 2021 (edited) FYI for anybody. For the black flag markings, stay away from the Double Ugly sheet. The flag is printed oversized and will not fit a 1/48 Phantom tail without overlapping the rudder. 1 to 1 photocopy Tamiya vertical. Rick L. Edited July 25, 2021 by Spruemeister Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted July 26, 2021 Share Posted July 26, 2021 On 7/21/2021 at 12:16 PM, Thadeus said: Ok, I found one new pic that might support the black tails in combat theory. I have no idea on the context, nor the date or the autenticity of the picutre, as I'm in the EU and the article is forbidden to acces from my neck of the woods. Looks like some flak damage. https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fbloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com%2Fbillingsgazette.com%2Fcontent%2Ftncms%2Fassets%2Fv3%2Feditorial%2F5%2Fbc%2F5bcf245f-2782-56c4-a835-2db4c946d983%2F5642173eb794d.image.jpg%3Fresize%3D1200%2C967&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fbillingsgazette.com%2Fspecial-section%2Fnews%2Fvets%2Fi-got-to-figure-out-a-way-to-get-out-of-this-i-got-to%2Farticle_7e025b53-7102-52ae-a3e7-e3103aaee2ab.html&tbnid=6zBYVHwNe2a1DM&vet=10CJMBEDMoqQFqFwoTCPDL3b779PECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAC..i&docid=0z4rS9IphQiuVM&w=1200&h=967&q=vf-84 Tonkin gulf&client=firefox-b-d&ved=0CJMBEDMoqQFqFwoTCPDL3b779PECFQAAAAAdAAAAABAC Wow! Okay, I definitely submit to this finding...the tail change must have been on the way over to 'Nam. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 On 7/25/2021 at 1:54 PM, Spruemeister said: FYI for anybody. For the black flag markings, stay away from the Double Ugly sheet. The flag is printed oversized and will not fit a 1/48 Phantom tail without overlapping the rudder. 1 to 1 photocopy Tamiya vertical. Rick L. Rick, did you take into account the extra area that the vertical fin leading edge insert adds? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeneK Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, RichB63 said: did you take into account the extra area that the vertical fin leading edge insert adds? As concerns overlap, I think Rick's key word is "rudder" vice vertical stanilator. In Rick's illustration, if the flag were moved a little more onto the leading edge insert, it would still overlap the rudder by quite a bit. Strange that an error that significant would be have been published. 2011 issue? I've looked for the Double Ugly VF-84 sheet in 1/72 but was not able to find one ... maybe a good thing considering the 1/48 "error". Gene K Edited July 27, 2021 by GeneK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spruemeister Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) Yeah the leading edge extension isn't going to make a difference on the DU decal. I did the same test on a Hasegawa tail when the sheet came out and got the same results. The flag overlaps onto the rudder and it should not. Is there a later, corrected sheet from DU I wasn't aware of? Rick L. Edited July 27, 2021 by Spruemeister Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spruemeister Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 I've been digging for about three days trying to find this photo. I still haven't come up with the original to make a higher res scan, but I did finally find the thumb drive with the low res scan I did back in 2008. It was an ebay find, and the only other info I seem to recall was that the photo was marked "Subic Bay", but I cant be 100% certain. 151514's tail appears to be in repaint with brown masking paper over the yellow fin tip, a yellow rudder, and yellow fuselage stripe. Undated. Rick L Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) Wow, score Rick!! Actually I think the rudder is also black, but deflected to the right, and has caught the sun. Yep, the fuselage is masked around the tail as well, and I think the leading edge. Gorgeous find! If it's Subic Bay, it must be May or June 1965. The Vietnam combat cruise was 10 May 1965 through 13 December, and since it now seems they had the black tails by the time they reached the combat zone (as per the above link to the flak-damaged bird) then they must be on the way over. Funny thing, I have a couple of unpublished photos of the Jolly Rogers' (VF-61) F9F-6 Cougars with transitioning markings aboard ship. Seems they were deployed ahead of schedule (Sept '54) to replace a carrier that had an accident...think it was the Bennington, an explosion within the ship or something. Anyway, a couple photos show the JR Cougars along with a couple of Banshees getting the "E" tail code applied there on deck. Edited July 27, 2021 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spruemeister Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 (edited) The flak damaged aircraft is also 151514. Same as in my photo. Check out the paint touch ups around the insignia under the right wing in my photo and compare to the paint touch ups in the damage photo. Same ones! The damage photo is definitely after my photo. Rick L. Edited July 27, 2021 by Spruemeister Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichB63 Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 Thanks Rick. That’s a shame that those decals are so oversized. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stefan buysse Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 4 hours ago, Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy said: If it's Subic Bay, it must be May or June 1965. The Vietnam combat cruise was 10 May 1965 through 13 December, and since it now seems they had the black tails by the time they reached the combat zone (as per the above link to the flak-damaged bird) then they must be on the way over. Hi, Interesting picture indeed. Andrew, I (obviously) agree that we know they left Oceana with the flag design and came back with the black tails. The exact time of the change-over is a bit unclear, but my gut feeling says it happened over a period of time during the cruise. However, if it's Subic Bay, it does not neccesarily have to be May or June 1965. I'm sure you know this as well as I do, but the time of the cruise did not involve continuous time "on the line". There were periods in port, Subic Bay is very close by but even port visits to Hong Kong were made during these combat cruises. I figure the USS Independence could sail from Yankee Station to Subic Bay within 48 hours. The "on the line" periods for the USS Independence were: 27 June-08 August, 25 August-21 September and 14 October-11 November 1965. So, there was ample time between those to get to Subic Bay. I had a look to see if F-4B 151514 and A-6A 151589 that are in this picture were lost during the cruise, but they weren't. Cheers, Stefan. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted July 27, 2021 Share Posted July 27, 2021 2 hours ago, Stefan buysse said: Hi, Interesting picture indeed. Andrew, I (obviously) agree that we know they left Oceana with the flag design and came back with the black tails. The exact time of the change-over is a bit unclear, but my gut feeling says it happened over a period of time during the cruise. However, if it's Subic Bay, it does not neccesarily have to be May or June 1965. I'm sure you know this as well as I do, but the time of the cruise did not involve continuous time "on the line". There were periods in port, Subic Bay is very close by but even port visits to Hong Kong were made during these combat cruises. I figure the USS Independence could sail from Yankee Station to Subic Bay within 48 hours. The "on the line" periods for the USS Independence were: 27 June-08 August, 25 August-21 September and 14 October-11 November 1965. So, there was ample time between those to get to Subic Bay. I had a look to see if F-4B 151514 and A-6A 151589 that are in this picture were lost during the cruise, but they weren't. Cheers, Stefan. Fair enough, I'm getting a good education from y'all in this thread and am very appreciative! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JEN722 Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 Here is a mix of tails. I have no date or anything though. Jens Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted August 2, 2021 Share Posted August 2, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, JEN722 said: Here is a mix of tails. I have no date or anything though. Jens Yep, that's the pic I posted earlier in the thread...besides the mix of both tails, to the left you can see a VF-84 bird with the tail totally primered over, except for the yellow fin cap. Must've been on the way to the war zone, which surprised me, since I didn't figure a paint change would be a priority while enroute to war....date is 1965. Edited August 3, 2021 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JEN722 Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 13 hours ago, Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy said: Yep, that's the pic I posted earlier in the thread...besides the mix of both tails, to the left you can see a VF-84 bird with the tail totally primered over, except for the yellow fin cap. Must've been on the way to the war zone, which surprised me, since I didn't figure a paint change would be a priority while enroute to war.... Doh! That's probably where I got the photo from. 😆 Jens Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 2 hours ago, JEN722 said: Doh! That's probably where I got the photo from. 😆 Jens I've done it too, my friend! Skoal! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.