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Spangdahlem F-4D colors and weapon loadout questions


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For my 1:48 scale Spangdahlem Heritage project, I'm planning to build an (E)F-4C and F-4D.

 

To build the (E)F-C Weasel, I've ordered an Academy F-4C and the GT Resin 48008 F-4C Weasel conversion Set.

I've also allready accuired the AirDOC M48-03 USAFE Phantoms in Germany Early Markings to build the 63-7440/SP as shown on the picture below.

The typical loadout for these birds was an ALQ-87/ALQ119, 2 AGM-45's, 3 AIM-7's and 2 droptanks and I will build it like that.

 

For the F-4D I'd like to build an example with the black serial presentation as shown on the other picture below.

It should also carry an interesting looking loadout and because of this I've got the following questions:

- In which timeframe did the Spangdahlem F-4D's use the black serial presentation?

- Which weapon loadouts were used by the F-4D's based at Spangdahlem during that period?

- Which types of ECM pods were used by the F-4D's based at Spangdahlem during that period?

 

Internet was quite helpfull with some of my questions, but unfortunately I'm unable to find the answers to these.

 

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

McDonnell F-4D Sn 66-8714-1981.jpg

EF-4C 63-7440SP.jpg

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26 minutes ago, Susaschka said:

- In which timeframe did the Spangdahlem F-4D's use the black serial presentation?

- Which weapon loadouts were used by the F-4D's based at Spangdahlem during that period?

- Which types of ECM pods were used by the F-4D's based at Spangdahlem during that period?

 

 

The serial and unit letters went black ~1980. White up to 1979, then gradual transition to all-black by 1981. 

The F-4D's of the 23TFS carried laser pods, so they would be able to carry guided munitions and AGM-65's. But overall they could carry anything any other Phantom unit would or could carry. 

The ECM pods would be ALQ-119's in forward right missile well. 

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4 hours ago, Niels said:

The serial and unit letters went black ~1980. White up to 1979, then gradual transition to all-black by 1981. 

The F-4D's of the 23TFS carried laser pods, so they would be able to carry guided munitions and AGM-65's. But overall they could carry anything any other Phantom unit would or could carry. 

The ECM pods would be ALQ-119's in forward right missile well. 

 

Thank you very much!

It looks that the F-4D in the top picture is indeed carrying a AN/ASQ-153 Pave Spike Laser Designator Pod on the forward left missile well.

 

I found a very interesting picture of a F-4D from the 8TFW carrying a GBU-12D, AN/ALQ-119, AN/ASQ-153, and a SUU-23 at the same time.

It also carries something else on the right inboard pylon that looks like a camera/rocketpod, but I'm not sure what it is exactly.

Also found a picture dated 1977 showing a Woodbridge F-4D carrying a Pave Knife, Paveway I and Gun Pod, so I recon it was possible for Europe based F-4D's to use this loadout too.

 

This triggers some new questions:  

- Which kind of Paveway LGB's did Spang F-4D's use: Paveway I, Paveway II or both?

- Did Spang F-4D's ever use the SUU-23 gun pod? I know they can technically carry them, but did they ever actually carry these?

- What is the device hanging under the right inboard pylon of the 8TFS F-4D?

 

Thanks again for the help!

 

F-4D_8TFW.JPG

F-4D_66-7735WR.JPG

Edited by Susaschka
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1 hour ago, Susaschka said:

This triggers some new questions:  

- Which kind of Paveway LGB's did Spang F-4D's use: Paveway I, Paveway II or both?

- Did Spang F-4D's ever use the SUU-23 gun pod? I know they can technically carry them, but did they ever actually carry these?

- What is the device hanging under the right inboard pylon of the 8TFS F-4D?

 

 

Honestly not sure, as I rarely refer to the "Paveway" desgnation, prefering the GBU-12 designation. This designation hasn't changed, only the naming-numbers (Paveway I vs II) 😉
SUU-23 was carried by F-4D's of the 52TFW. 

The white "thing" is a SUU-21A training pod containing Mk76 training bombs. To avoid incidental loss (drop) of the training bombs when flying over populated areas, the pod with "bomb doors" was developed which prevented this happening. It was used throughout Europe and clearly Korea too as the photo shows a 8TFW jet.  

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On 8/7/2021 at 7:40 PM, Niels said:

Honestly not sure, as I rarely refer to the "Paveway" desgnation, prefering the GBU-12 designation. This designation hasn't changed, only the naming-numbers (Paveway I vs II) 😉
SUU-23 was carried by F-4D's of the 52TFW. 

The white "thing" is a SUU-21A training pod containing Mk76 training bombs. To avoid incidental loss (drop) of the training bombs when flying over populated areas, the pod with "bomb doors" was developed which prevented this happening. It was used throughout Europe and clearly Korea too as the photo shows a 8TFW jet.  

 

Thanks again!

 

Same here with the Paveway designation, but there is however a significant difference between the two variants: Paveway II bombs have pop-out rear wings, as Paveway I examples have not.

The GBU-12's carried in the pictures are Paveway I examples, but all the 1:48 GBU-10's and GBU-12's I own are all Paveway II's. Guess I'll have to buy additional Paveway I GBU's. 🙂

 

Great that the F-4D's from Spang did use the SUU-23 so I will consider this option as well.

Thanks for pointing out the SUU-21A, because I had no clue what it was. As it is no "real" weapon and it is quite bulky, it will not be consider this an option on my model.

 

At the moment I'm leaning towards an AN/ALQ-119, an AN/ASQ-153 with 2x GBU-10's, 2 droptanks, a SUU-23 and 2x AIM-7's.

Edited by Susaschka
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If you're going by a model depicting a bird from aroud 1980, it would be Paveway I. Paveway III was initiated in 1976, but not entering service until 1986. I couldn't find any dates for Paveway II, however my impression is that it was taken into use sometime during the 80's. 

 

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8 hours ago, Niels said:

If you're going by a model depicting a bird from aroud 1980, it would be Paveway I. Paveway III was initiated in 1976, but not entering service until 1986. I couldn't find any dates for Paveway II, however my impression is that it was taken into use sometime during the 80's. 

 

 

Yeah, My thoughts exactly.

Will have to buy a set of GBU-10 Paveway I's then. 🙂

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3 hours ago, Finn said:

Here is a D with a display load that includes SUU-7 dispensers:

 

7604241480_701f3d5a4d_k.jpg

 

Jari

 

This is indeed a very interesting looking loadout! I've never seen SUU-7's before.

 

Can't tell for sure, but it looks like there are two Aim-7's on the aft missile wells, a MER with 2 Zuni rocket launchers on the outer left station, a TER with at least 2 Mk.82's (most likely 3) on the right inboard station and on the centerline a MER with what looks a GBU?

No ECM pod is mounted on the front right well and I can't really see if a Pave Spike is mounted on the front left well. Also a SUU-23 can be seen on stands in front of the plane, together with 2 other devices I can't identify with certainty. Any thoughts if my conclusions are correct?

 

Tried to find a frontal picture of this bird online, but was unable to find any. I do know the picture is taken at the Bitburg Armed Forces Day held at 26-08-1972, as a Belgian F-104, RAF Lightning and Canadian F-104 can be seen parked behind it. (https://www.scramble.nl/database/show-reports/germany/bitburg-1972)

I've sent a message to somebody I know who went there and asked him if he has a frontal picture from this plane showing the loadout. If I get it I will post it here if I'm allowed to.

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Those are SUU-25 flare dispensers on the left outer, pretty much the same externally as a LAU-10 pod, hard to tell what is on the c/l, if a GBU it would be 500lb one as a larger one couldn't go on a MER. Maybe a BLU-27? Also at the far right, under the muzzle of the SUU-23 the white item is the lid for the container for the AIM-4D so they probably had those on display as well.

 

Jari

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Here's a F-4D from Hahn during the Open Day at Soesterberg 16-06-1967. (Photo credit: Hans de Ree)

Looks like this one is loaded with 2 (likely4) AIM-7's, a SUU-23, 2 BLU-27's and a TER with 3 LAU-3's. Any comments?

Note the absence of the nose sensor and old style serial.

 

Looks like Niels is completely right with his statement that the F-4D's would carry anything. 🙂

 

f-4D_65-0749_16-06-1967-2.jpg

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23 hours ago, Finn said:

Those are SUU-25 flare dispensers on the left outer, pretty much the same externally as a LAU-10 pod, hard to tell what is on the c/l, if a GBU it would be 500lb one as a larger one couldn't go on a MER. Maybe a BLU-27? Also at the far right, under the muzzle of the SUU-23 the white item is the lid for the container for the AIM-4D so they probably had those on display as well.

 

Jari

 

Thanks for clearing that up!

I think you are right that it propably is a BLU-27 or similar on the centerline and not a GBU.

AIM-4's I never considered, because for me they look like toys. 🙂

Edited by Susaschka
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2 minutes ago, Niels said:

Remember that airshow displays are not reflecting true operational loads. 

 

Yup, that is very true and it sometimes looked like it was a contest to see how much ordnance could be loaded. 

For me it only provides me with intel about which weapons were in the arsenal and could be used.

 

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4 hours ago, Susaschka said:

Here's a F-4D from Hahn during the Open Day at Soesterberg 16-06-1967. (Photo credit: Hans de Ree)

Looks like this one is loaded with 2 (likely4) AIM-7's, a SUU-23, 2 BLU-27's and a TER with 3 LAU-3's. Any comments?

 

 

Looks like it has the AIM-4D launcher on the side of the inboard pylon.

 

Jari

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On 8/7/2021 at 12:40 PM, Niels said:

The white "thing" is a SUU-21A training pod containing Mk76 training bombs. 

 

The SUU-21 Bomb Dispensers were normally loaded with six blue BDU-33 (or four blue BDU-33 and two orange Mk.106 if a nuclear bombing range was available). The blue shapes simulated low drag conventional bombs, while the orange shapes simulated high drag nuclear weapons. Usual training configuration was SUU-23 on Centerline, SUU-21 on left inboard, rocket or flare pods on right inboard, and wing tanks.

 

The Mk.76 was USN practice bomb similar to the USAF BDU-33.

 

Gene K

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On 8/8/2021 at 4:21 AM, Finn said:

Here is a D with a display load that includes SUU-7 dispensers:

 

7604241480_701f3d5a4d_k.jpg

 

Jari

 

Here's another shot of this bird from a little more back, showing that the GBU I thought that was on the centerline TER is actually on the inner left pylon and the centerline contains 3 LAU3 rocketpods. (Photo credit: Hans de Ree)

Unfortunately I was unable to find a picture taken from the front.

Looking at more F-4D Airshow static shots aroud that period, It looked like they made it their goal to load as many different weapons onto a plane. 🙂

 

F-4D_66-566BT-3.jpg

Edited by Susaschka
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Actually worked 714 in the early 80's before the 23rd went to E models.  

 

USAF was going to subdued fatigues from the bright blue.  I built this one after I returned to CONUS.

148 F4D 01 lo res.jpg

 

To answer your questions

 

1)  I was there from Mar 80 to Mar 82 as a 462X0 weapons loader so....  When I got there, all the jets in the three squadrons had SEA camo with white markings.  Over the course of two years, the transition to black tailcodes happened gradually but by the fall of 1981 they were all black and the aircraft were still SEA camo. 

2) Typical weapons loads were, day-to-day two SUU-21 pods (sta 2 & 8, one ea) with either six BDU-33's for conventional simulation or six Mk-106's for nuke simulation.  During exercises, the D models were tasked with first a conventional weapons load with TERs on 2 &8 with three Mk-82's ea or, one GBU-10 on 2 & 8 or the same with GBU-12's.   When the exercise escalated to nukes, we usually hung a B-61 on station 5.  Sometimes it was a B57.  Fuel tanks were ALWAYS the 370's on stations 1 and 9

 

Usually there was a 119 pod in the sta 4 LAU-7 launcher but it was frowned upon as the retractable crew ladder came very close to it so it was preferred it went in Station-6

 

Seldom, if ever did we load any AIM-7's as that commitment went away.  Same with AIM-9's and the jets we got from Hahn, the first thing we did was remove the Aero 3B's from the inboard pylons.   Bitburg was tasked with the A to A role and Spang was A to G only.   When I was there, the 480th had E models, the 23rd had D models and the 81st had the G's.  As I was leaving the 23rd was converting to E models, sent from Hahn and some from Ramstein.   

 

 

Edited by VADM Fangschleister
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14 hours ago, VADM Fangschleister said:

Actually worked 714 in the early 80's before the 23rd went to E models.  

 

USAF was going to subdued fatigues from the bright blue.  I built this one after I returned to CONUS.

 

 

To answer your questions

 

1)  I was there from Mar 80 to Mar 82 as a 462X0 weapons loader so....  When I got there, all the jets in the three squadrons had SEA camo with white markings.  Over the course of two years, the transition to black tailcodes happened gradually but by the fall of 1981 they were all black and the aircraft were still SEA camo. 

2) Typical weapons loads were, day-to-day two SUU-21 pods (sta 2 & 8, one ea) with either six BDU-33's for conventional simulation or six Mk-106's for nuke simulation.  During exercises, the D models were tasked with first a conventional weapons load with TERs on 2 &8 with three Mk-82's ea or, one GBU-10 on 2 & 8 or the same with GBU-12's.   When the exercise escalated to nukes, we usually hung a B-61 on station 5.  Sometimes it was a B57.  Fuel tanks were ALWAYS the 370's on stations 1 and 9

 

Usually there was a 119 pod in the sta 4 LAU-7 launcher but it was frowned upon as the retractable crew ladder came very close to it so it was preferred it went in Station-6

 

Seldom, if ever did we load any AIM-7's as that commitment went away.  Same with AIM-9's and the jets we got from Hahn, the first thing we did was remove the Aero 3B's from the inboard pylons.   Bitburg was tasked with the A to A role and Spang was A to G only.   When I was there, the 480th had E models, the 23rd had D models and the 81st had the G's.  As I was leaving the 23rd was converting to E models, sent from Hahn and some from Ramstein.   

 

 

That is a very nice looking model + stand and thank you for the weapon loadout info!

It's allways great to receive confirmation and what a coincidence that I'm planning to build a plane that you actually worked on. 🙂

 

I have four more additional questions if I may:

- Can I assume that my favored loadout of an AN/ALQ-119 (st6), an AN/ASQ-153 (st4), 2 GBU-10's (st2+8), 2 droptanks (st1+9), a SUU-23 (st5) and 2 AIM-7's (st3+7) is realistic if I lose the SUU-23?

- Did the F-4D's at Spang ever use the SUU-23 gunpods?

- What could/would be carried on station 5 besides a nuke?

- Do you know if the GBU-10 and GBU-12's were the Paveway I or Paveway II versions?

 

Thanks!

 

Edited by Susaschka
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On 8/9/2021 at 1:36 PM, Susaschka said:

Here's a F-4D from Hahn during the Open Day at Soesterberg 16-06-1967. (Photo credit: Hans de Ree)

Looks like this one is loaded with 2 (likely4) AIM-7's, a SUU-23, 2 BLU-27's and a TER with 3 LAU-3's. Any comments?

Note the absence of the nose sensor and old style serial.

 

Looks like Niels is completely right with his statement that the F-4D's would carry anything. 🙂

 

f-4D_65-0749_16-06-1967-2.jpg

That's a nasty looking Phantom.   If you want to see how truly weather-beaten these aircraft could get, check out the truly fantastic instruction sheet for Fundekals Operation Bolo decal set.   They had some amazing color variations in the early days.     

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- Can I assume that my favored loadout of an AN/ALQ-119 (st6), an AN/ASQ-153 (st4), 2 GBU-10's (st2+8), 2 droptanks (st1+9), a SUU-23 (st5) and 2 AIM-7's (st3+7) is realistic if I lose the SUU-23?

The laser designator could go on 4 or 6.  Funny thing is us weapons toads never loaded them.  They were done by a different shop.  Same with the ECM pods.  We never touched them.  Since they were not munitions, they were out of our AFSC.   The mission would likely call for two AIM-7's in the aft launchers though we almost never loaded them except in the load-barn for qual.  We once had a NATO/TAC EVAL exercise and it called for an AIM-7 load on a forward station.  The aft stations were much lower to the ground and scraping our heads on drain masts was always fun.  But I was told by our senior NCO's that the AIM-7's would go there if at all.  

 

Absolutely a realistic load if you delete the gun pod on Sta 5.   

 

The launchers for AIM-9's were carried at Spang and when I first got there the base did have that mission but it ended shortly after my arrival.  We never loaded any except once in the load-barn at the start of my tour and never again.  

 

 

- Did the F-4D's at Spang ever use the SUU-23 gunpods?

We were trained to load them and usually on Sta 5.  They generally were considered to be phasing out but still were in the inventory.  We never loaded one for actual gunnery purposes, just for load-barn training as it was a mission requirement.  It would not be "wrong" to have one on Sta 5 but more than likely that station would have a fuel tank.  The thing about the SUU-23 was that after you hang it, it has to be boresighted.   This involves a bunch of cranking the airplane down to the ground, using a bunch of fiddly equipment to line up at a point somewhere in front of the aircraft.  This accounts for the minor differences of when the pod was swayed in with the four sway pads that held it in place and to have it shoot straight, of course.  But we never loaded one operationally...Just in training.   It was a bit "weird" since it was electrical all the way.  Both controlled and fired.  The M61A1 in the E model was hydraulically actuated and electrically controlled.  The SUU-23 used an electric motor to drive the breeches. Historically, I was told that the SUU-23's were notoriously inaccurate.  The pylon swaybraces were not stout enough to keep them in a fixed position when firing and they would quickly go out of alignment.   

 

- What could/would be carried on station 5 besides a nuke?

500 gallon fuel tank, the old one, not the high-speed F-15 tank. The Weasels got that mod first and I don't think the D model ever did though I could be wrong.

MER

SUU-21

SUU-23

B-57

B-61

 

The Dash 1 lists tons more but those were what we did in reality.  

- Do you know if the GBU-10 and GBU-12's were the Paveway I or Paveway II versions?

In 1980, were were using Paveway I's with the sheetmetal fins.  Later, I'm guessing around the end of the year or early '81, Paveway II's with the retracted fins.  

 

Hope that helps.   Most of the time, the D's flew with an ECM pod and one or two SUU-21's.   

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On 8/13/2021 at 3:01 AM, 11bee said:

That's a nasty looking Phantom.   If you want to see how truly weather-beaten these aircraft could get, check out the truly fantastic instruction sheet for Fundekals Operation Bolo decal set.   They had some amazing color variations in the early days.     

Looks like it spent a summer under the European sun.

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10 hours ago, VADM Fangschleister said:

- Can I assume that my favored loadout of an AN/ALQ-119 (st6), an AN/ASQ-153 (st4), 2 GBU-10's (st2+8), 2 droptanks (st1+9), a SUU-23 (st5) and 2 AIM-7's (st3+7) is realistic if I lose the SUU-23?

The laser designator could go on 4 or 6.  Funny thing is us weapons toads never loaded them.  They were done by a different shop.  Same with the ECM pods.  We never touched them.  Since they were not munitions, they were out of our AFSC.   The mission would likely call for two AIM-7's in the aft launchers though we almost never loaded them except in the load-barn for qual.  We once had a NATO/TAC EVAL exercise and it called for an AIM-7 load on a forward station.  The aft stations were much lower to the ground and scraping our heads on drain masts was always fun.  But I was told by our senior NCO's that the AIM-7's would go there if at all.  

 

Absolutely a realistic load if you delete the gun pod on Sta 5.   

 

The launchers for AIM-9's were carried at Spang and when I first got there the base did have that mission but it ended shortly after my arrival.  We never loaded any except once in the load-barn at the start of my tour and never again.  

 

 

- Did the F-4D's at Spang ever use the SUU-23 gunpods?

We were trained to load them and usually on Sta 5.  They generally were considered to be phasing out but still were in the inventory.  We never loaded one for actual gunnery purposes, just for load-barn training as it was a mission requirement.  It would not be "wrong" to have one on Sta 5 but more than likely that station would have a fuel tank.  The thing about the SUU-23 was that after you hang it, it has to be boresighted.   This involves a bunch of cranking the airplane down to the ground, using a bunch of fiddly equipment to line up at a point somewhere in front of the aircraft.  This accounts for the minor differences of when the pod was swayed in with the four sway pads that held it in place and to have it shoot straight, of course.  But we never loaded one operationally...Just in training.   It was a bit "weird" since it was electrical all the way.  Both controlled and fired.  The M61A1 in the E model was hydraulically actuated and electrically controlled.  The SUU-23 used an electric motor to drive the breeches. Historically, I was told that the SUU-23's were notoriously inaccurate.  The pylon swaybraces were not stout enough to keep them in a fixed position when firing and they would quickly go out of alignment.   

 

- What could/would be carried on station 5 besides a nuke?

500 gallon fuel tank, the old one, not the high-speed F-15 tank. The Weasels got that mod first and I don't think the D model ever did though I could be wrong.

MER

SUU-21

SUU-23

B-57

B-61

 

The Dash 1 lists tons more but those were what we did in reality.  

- Do you know if the GBU-10 and GBU-12's were the Paveway I or Paveway II versions?

In 1980, were were using Paveway I's with the sheetmetal fins.  Later, I'm guessing around the end of the year or early '81, Paveway II's with the retracted fins.  

 

Hope that helps.   Most of the time, the D's flew with an ECM pod and one or two SUU-21's.   

 

Thank you very much VADM Fangschleister, this is very helpful information for me indeed!

Will lose the SUU-23 on station 5 and I didn't realize that these guns were so unreliable and difficult to use.

 

 Now I'm only wondering if I should replace them by an old style fueltank or a MER with ordanance.

 

Some last questions:

- What kind of bombs were used on the MER's? I guess 6 mk.82's or 6 mk.20's? 

- And were these kind of bombs ever used when GBU's were carried?

 

Thanks again!

 

Edited by Susaschka
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Some last questions:

- What kind of bombs were used on the MER's? I guess 6 mk.82's or 6 mk.20's? 

We often loaded six Mk-20's on TER's.  Three each side.   Not uncommon to have three on Sta's 2 & 8.  A MER on Sta 5 with six Mk-82's is reasonable or the Mk-20's.   My personal "pet peeve" is that modelers tend to want to load up their planes with tons and tons of ("mixed")munitions.  In the real world, A to G munitions add lots of drag and weight, both of which affect fuel-burn.  If the target is not far away, fine, load away.  For every mile more, then there's got to be a tanker to keep the gas coming.  Our mission in W Germany was first point of defense if the Russians got nasty.  Given that the border to E Germany wasn't considerably far away the assumption was that they had no shortage of staging areas to fly from and bring tanks and troops.  Yet still, the higher-ups didn't tend to load the Phantoms with gobs of ordnance.   Six Mk-82's or Mk-20's on 2&8, two 370's and the C/L empty or with a 500 gal tank.  

 

 

- And were these kind of bombs ever used when GBU's were carried?

 

Mixed loads were generally not the norm.  Great for airshow stuff but usually the aircraft's mission determined what weapons to carry (of course) and during our many, many, MANY exercises I never saw a mixed load.   One other more-or-less "common" loads was CBU-58's which were canister bombs that split down each side releasing bomblets at altitude.   I believe we only loaded two on each TER. One on the bottom station and one on the outboard shoulder.  Sta's 2 & 8.  

 

This is how I remember things back when I was but a mere lad some 40 years ago.  

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