Hundriver Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 Does anyone know of an aftermarket 1/72 scale "long canopy" so a modeler can convert an TF-104G or F-104D to an F-104B? The B had a single long canopy covering both cockpits... kind of like an F-100F. -- Joe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 (edited) AFAIK, the B-canopy was not single piece, but there was no fixed part between the front and rear canopies. A club member is trying to do what you want to do, but in 1/48 scale. I think he decided to make a vacform master from the kit parts: he glue the kit parts together, filled the interior to make a sturdy piece, then filled the panel lines and scribed new ones. The only problem now is that his vacform parts will be slightly oversized. He could go one step further, and that is to pull a glassfiber mold from his master, and do 'negative' vacuum forming. That would give him an exactly sized vacform canopy, and better details on the formed part too. All in all a lot of work.. Rob Edited September 14, 2021 by Rob de Bie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 Just checked some books, and photos of the F-104B with open canopies are rare! But I found one, on page 83 of the Koku Fan F-104 Special. And it shows two separate canopies. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hundriver Posted September 14, 2021 Author Share Posted September 14, 2021 Hmmm. I have never seen a photo of an open F-104B canopy, but it sure looks like a single piece when closed. That "brace" across the middle doesn't look very substantial if it is indeed a connection between two pieces. I'll keep looking and contact a fellow who flew the C model. He may know. Thanks, Rob. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 To add some more: there were a few D-models with the B-canopy too. I *think* most were converted to the D-type canopy. And I speculate that there is a link with the type of seat installed: downward vs upward. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 I found an online version of the photo I was refering too. Look at the second 104 on the right: http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Contrails/contPalmdale58.htm You can see a slight kink in the hinge line, excluding the possibility of a single canopy. The sixth and ninth are B's too, btw. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hundriver Posted September 14, 2021 Author Share Posted September 14, 2021 14 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said: I found an online version of the photo I was refering too. Look at the second 104 on the right: http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Contrails/contPalmdale58.htm You can see a slight kink in the hinge line, excluding the possibility of a single canopy. The sixth and ninth are B's too, btw. Rob Dang! You are correct. That is the first time I have ever seen an image of the B with its canopies open. That actually only complicates building the B if you want the canopies open. I didn't plan on having them (it) open, but I will certainly not have them open now. Step one remains obtaining the different canopy. I may have to look at butchering the kit canopies. I have two TF-104G kit. I'm wanting to build a B from the TENN AIR GUARD in Knoxville...from the last century. Thanks for helping me clarify the issue...I think. 😉 BTW, someone in the forums was asking about the colors of the wings. The USAF painted the tops of the wings white and the bottoms FS 16473 "ADC gray." That info is from a pilot who flew them who is also a master modeler. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hundriver Posted September 14, 2021 Author Share Posted September 14, 2021 38 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said: I found an online version of the photo I was refering too. Look at the second 104 on the right: http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Contrails/contPalmdale58.htm You can see a slight kink in the hinge line, excluding the possibility of a single canopy. The sixth and ninth are B's too, btw. Rob From the same site: There does appear to be a metal "canopy bow" between the front and rear canopies (red arrows) upon which the aft pilot has left his helmet. I have no idea if there was glass (polycarbonate?) there, too. I doubt it would withstand the air pressures at a high Mach upwards ejection. So, I suspect you are correct in your comment about the canopy configuration being tied to the ejection direction (sounds like a medical issue with men.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 (edited) Great photo, good find! But what's that drumband waiting for, in the background? 🙂 Good point regarding the blast effect if there is a tranparancy mounted inside the bow. That wouldn't be nice for the backseater. Another small detail I think I see is that there are not bullet-shaped explosive or pneumatic canopy lifters on the canopy rails. And no brackets on the canopies that rest on these lifters when closed. So this seems to be a 104 with downward ejection seats. Rob Edited September 14, 2021 by Rob de Bie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hundriver Posted September 14, 2021 Author Share Posted September 14, 2021 3 minutes ago, Rob de Bie said: Great photo, good find! But what's that drumband waiting for, in the background? 🙂 Good point regarding the blast effect if there is a tranparancy mounted inside the bow. That wouldn't be nice for the backseater. Another small detail I think I see is that there are not bullet-shaped explosive or pneumatic canopy lifters on the canopy rails. And no brackets on the canopies that rest on these lifters when closed. So this seems to be a 104 with downward ejection seats. Rob Hmmm. The absence of pneumatic lifters is not necessarily a determinant. I flew the T-38 for 2200+ hours. Its canopy was completely manual for opening and closing, but it was ballistically removed during the ejection sequence. Having said that, the B seats were still probably downward ejecting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted September 14, 2021 Share Posted September 14, 2021 I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm not talking about a normal canopy opening system, I'm talking about the system that in the ejection sequence lifts the front of the canopy a few inches, so the blast can rip it off. You can see the bullet-shaped thrusters very well in this photo. What you cannot see are the brackets on the canopy, that rest on the thrusters. I cannot see either in your B-model photo, hence the conclusion the canopies could not be removed in the ejection sequence, hence downward seats. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hundriver Posted September 14, 2021 Author Share Posted September 14, 2021 1 hour ago, Rob de Bie said: I think we have a misunderstanding. I'm not talking about a normal canopy opening system, I'm talking about the system that in the ejection sequence lifts the front of the canopy a few inches, so the blast can rip it off. You can see the bullet-shaped thrusters very well in this photo. What you cannot see are the brackets on the canopy, that rest on the thrusters. I cannot see either in your B-model photo, hence the conclusion the canopies could not be removed in the ejection sequence, hence downward seats. Rob Rob, I am not that familiar with the 104's escape system. So, later models used pneumatic lifters to open the canopy enough for the wind blast to blow the canopy away, huh? The 104 would definitely need something pretty strong to get the canopy away at high Mach. I know the fear with the early seats was that the seat would not clear the T-tail at high speeds, thus the downward-ejecting system. I assume those were simple ballistic seats and not rocket seats. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mizar Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 search for Jordanian F-104s Luigi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mizar Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Lockheed-F-104B-Starfighter/753803/L https://www.airliners.net/photo/USA-Air-Force/Lockheed-F-104B-Starfighter/1364658/L Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CF104 Posted September 15, 2021 Share Posted September 15, 2021 On 9/14/2021 at 8:16 AM, Rob de Bie said: To add some more: there were a few D-models with the B-canopy too. I *think* most were converted to the D-type canopy. And I speculate that there is a link with the type of seat installed: downward vs upward. Rob Actually All F-104A's and B's that survived in service past approximately 1960 had the downward C-1 seat replaced with the upward C-2 seat and new canopy. The same thing with the very few D's that had the C-1 seat as well. Cheers, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hundriver Posted October 12, 2021 Author Share Posted October 12, 2021 I stumbled onto this web site concerning the F-104B and it's canopy/ejection system. Screen cap below has the pertinent info, link is to the actual web page. http://yellowairplane.com/museums/f-104_starfighter_ken_marlatt/Page_8_F104_Ejection_Seats.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.