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"acrylic" flat clear eats through my acrylic paint


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Hi, pros. I am really disappointed right now...and this is really ruining any fun i was having with my new hobby ):

I bought my first F-117 stealth from revel, got "AQUEOUS" (mr hobby) flat black paint, which i understand is acrylic (water based?).

 

Thinned the paint with a few drops of water, learned to paint with gentle strokes to mostly prevent brush strokes, got the stealth looking ....ok for a newbie's first plane.

 

Guy at the store sells me "TAMIYA flat clear" it says on the label "acrylic paint". I finally start applying it and start to see light brush strokes on my black paint. Its EATING my black paint!

 

At this point im demoralized and so angry. I just wanted to brush with simple water based paint so I can wash my brushes easily, and i wanted an ok result that wasnt ugly garbage.

now I cant even find a decent clear coat laquer that doesn't ruin my paint?

 

What am i supposed to use on top of this "AQUEOUS" flat black paint?

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Tamiya is an “acrylic lacquer”. Acrylic technically refers to the binder in the paint. It’s water soluble, but the case of Tamiya, the solvent isn’t water. So, yes, it can be rough on some “solvent” sensitive paints. These tend to be more the water based acrylics. 
 

There tends to be fewer issues spraying “hot” paints. They’re definitely still can be, but it’s safer due to thinner coats and less physical abrading than a brush. 
 

In general, the simplest way to avoid paint compatibility issues would be stay in the same paint line. So I’d you could find the Gunze Aqueous clear flat. 
 

For a true water based clear flat the brushes well, Microscale (famous for decal setting solutions) was all the rage back in a day (talking 25 years ago). There are a lot more products available these days and I’ve never personally used it, but it’s a consideration.  

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I'm actually a big fan of Micro Flat, and while I'd agree that it's generally safer to apply flat coats with an airbrush, Micro Flat will definitely not attack the paint underneath.

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And one other idea: it sounds like you are brushing by hand rather than using an airbrush. As mentioned above, brushing one paint or lacquer over another that uses a similar solvent will cause the two to blur. If you don't have an airbrush, you can also buy Tamiya flat clear in a spray can and spray your model that way. This will not cause the abrasion of brushing and will give a nice even clear coat. You will, however, need to mask the canopy and other clear parts (that sensor thingy in the nose of the F-117 whateveritscalled) and anything else you don't want to have a flat finish. 

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thank you all for replying while i slept!

the flat black paint says "h-12 aqueous hobby color"

the flat clear is TAMIYA XF-96 "customs to D4236"

and the problem seems to be it "contains isopropanol" which is...an alcohol?

 

Looks like i either need to find a "PLEDGE" type floor product

or one of the other brands of cleat coat that doesnt contain alcohols, probably the same brand as hobby color.

And yes i am using a stick brush

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thank you.

- I tried to just apply car wax but it doesnt really do much and it just goes in the cracks and makes them white

- furniture spray didnt do much either

- i cant find "pledge" future in my country

- the store guy told me they sell some tamiya clear spray for 12$ (wow!)

 

I have an old rattle can of clear coat for wheels and tried it on a painted piece of wood. Didnt harm the paint.

For some reason this wheel clear coat is fine yet the tamiya acrylic damaged it.

 

So...as someone from eastern europe who doesnt have access to all fancy acrylic clear coats...i will use my old spray can of wheel clear coat.

The other option would have been to try buying acrylic varnish for wood and such and brush it on. But i guess there is no point this time.

 

I hate rattle cans and overspraying...but this is a f117 plane...should be easy enough to apply a 2 very gentle coats.

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Seeing as you're (apparently) able to obtain Gunze aqueous acrylics (Mr. Hobby), why don't you just use their own gloss and flat clears?

 

Virtually everything you might want is at least reasonably available over the internet. Maybe try ordering online?

 

I mentioned above that I like the Micro products quite a bit, and I have stick-brushed them occasionally with satisfactory results. Here's a link to a product page. As you can see they do gloss, flat and satin:

 

http://www.microscale.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=FINPROD

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On 9/30/2021 at 12:10 AM, MR Brush Brutalizer said:

Hi, pros. I am really disappointed right now...and this is really ruining any fun i was having with my new hobby 😞

I bought my first F-117 stealth from revel, got "AQUEOUS" (mr hobby) flat black paint, which i understand is acrylic (water based?).

 

Thinned the paint with a few drops of water, learned to paint with gentle strokes to mostly prevent brush strokes, got the stealth looking ....ok for a newbie's first plane.

 

Guy at the store sells me "TAMIYA flat clear" it says on the label "acrylic paint". I finally start applying it and start to see light brush strokes on my black paint. Its EATING my black paint!

 

At this point im demoralized and so angry. I just wanted to brush with simple water based paint so I can wash my brushes easily, and i wanted an ok result that wasnt ugly garbage.

now I cant even find a decent clear coat laquer that doesn't ruin my paint?

 

What am i supposed to use on top of this "AQUEOUS" flat black paint?

Its a common misconception that all acrylic based paints use water as a carrier medium. 

Tamiya use alcohol as a carrier which is why it lifted the paint.

 

Paints come in three parts not two as is most often thought

 

Edited by ElectroSoldier
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Lacquer, enamel and latex are types of paints.

Acrylic is a medium which can be used in all these three types of paints. 

Gunze and Tamiya both produce acrylic lacquer paints those can either be diluted with water or thinned with isopropyl alcohol and solvent.

Gunze aqueous paints are acrylic lacquers that can be diluted with water and thinned with isopropyl alcohol. (H series)

They also produce acrylic lacquer that can only be thinned with organic solvent. (C series)

Until recently a couple of years ago Tamiya's acrylic lacquer paints were only diluted with water or thinned with isopropyl alcohol. Now they also have organic solvent as thinner for their new paints. (with black labelled bottles)

(From a perspective of marketing only Gunze identify the paints more correct and the rest just use their own tricky wording to attract the modellers. We fall into this trap by always using a paint that can be thinned with water is acrylic. It is not; that paint is only aqueous or water-soluble. The name acrylic comes from that the substance is like kind of a clear resin and literally does not mean that it can only be thinned with water. Check the C series of Gunze paints that can only be thinned with organic solvents but no water even though they are acrylic based lacquer type paints.)

As they are lacquer types even after they cure they can be dissolved again by their own thinners. That is what makes lacquer different than enamels at first hand regarding usage. Enamels normally can not be dissolved again with their thinners after they cure.

So, normally with each brush stroke the layer of a lacquer paint will always get effected by the new application on top of it as it is its nature.

May be only if the top coat is diluted with water this effect might be lessened since water act as a dilluter not like a thinner.

Cheers,

Arkut

 

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I really have to thank all of you for explaining stuff and making clear that i cant use a clear coat that has alcohol on a water paint.

I have two pics to share, its not finished yet.

I still have to put the decals, fix the details on the bottom side paint and apply varnish/clear coat.

This is my first plane and i am still quite clumsy with my hands (and my room is very dusty) so expect to cringe.

camera angles make this curvy plane a beauty though!

bb1.jpg

bb2.jpg

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On 10/3/2021 at 7:34 PM, clumsy said:

Lacquer, enamel and latex are types of paints.

Acrylic is a medium which can be used in all these three types of paints. 

Gunze and Tamiya both produce acrylic lacquer paints those can either be diluted with water or thinned with isopropyl alcohol and solvent.

Gunze aqueous paints are acrylic lacquers that can be diluted with water and thinned with isopropyl alcohol. (H series)

They also produce acrylic lacquer that can only be thinned with organic solvent. (C series)

Until recently a couple of years ago Tamiya's acrylic lacquer paints were only diluted with water or thinned with isopropyl alcohol. Now they also have organic solvent as thinner for their new paints. (with black labelled bottles)

(From a perspective of marketing only Gunze identify the paints more correct and the rest just use their own tricky wording to attract the modellers. We fall into this trap by always using a paint that can be thinned with water is acrylic. It is not; that paint is only aqueous or water-soluble. The name acrylic comes from that the substance is like kind of a clear resin and literally does not mean that it can only be thinned with water. Check the C series of Gunze paints that can only be thinned with organic solvents but no water even though they are acrylic based lacquer type paints.)

As they are lacquer types even after they cure they can be dissolved again by their own thinners. That is what makes lacquer different than enamels at first hand regarding usage. Enamels normally can not be dissolved again with their thinners after they cure.

So, normally with each brush stroke the layer of a lacquer paint will always get effected by the new application on top of it as it is its nature.

May be only if the top coat is diluted with water this effect might be lessened since water act as a dilluter not like a thinner.

Cheers,

Arkut

 

Not really no, so many things wrong, or not exactly right its hard to know where to start.

 

Acrylic is a medium, but used in acrylic paints, you can also get acrylic pigments that can be use in lacquer paints but it should be confused with acrylic an medium for acrylic paints.

 

A lacquer paint is not an acrylic paint.

Tamiya produce an acrylic paint series and a lacquer paint series and you cant take their acrylic paints (by some for of "magic" remove the carrier (alcohol) from it and replace it with lacquer based equivalent and expect it to work, the lacquer will pull the medium apart.

 

Paints are usually

 

Pigments: This is the part that gives it its colour, it can be natural or man made, it can even be called an acrylic pigment.

 

Medium: This is the part you put the pigment into. You spread it over the surface and the colour you put into it shows through.

 

Carrier (aka vehicle, transport): This is the part that makes it possible to spread the medium over the surface evenly before it evaporates leaving only the medium which then sets to a hard surface. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

Not really no, so many things wrong, or not exactly right its hard to know where to start.

 

Acrylic is a medium, but used in acrylic paints, you can also get acrylic pigments that can be use in lacquer paints but it should be confused with acrylic an medium for acrylic paints.

 

A lacquer paint is not an acrylic paint.

Tamiya produce an acrylic paint series and a lacquer paint series and you cant take their acrylic paints (by some for of "magic" remove the carrier (alcohol) from it and replace it with lacquer based equivalent and expect it to work, the lacquer will pull the medium apart.

 

Paints are usually

 

Pigments: This is the part that gives it its colour, it can be natural or man made, it can even be called an acrylic pigment.

 

Medium: This is the part you put the pigment into. You spread it over the surface and the colour you put into it shows through.

 

Carrier (aka vehicle, transport): This is the part that makes it possible to spread the medium over the surface evenly before it evaporates leaving only the medium which then sets to a hard surface. 

 

 

Please check the naming that GSI Creos uses for its paints:

https://www.mr-hobby.com/en/product1/category_6/83.html
https://www.mr-hobby.com/en/product1/category_7/87.html

 

Due marketing reasons almost every manufacturer uses the term acrylic as if their so called paints are thinned only with water.

But, no.

Thanks to Gunze (GSI Creos) they act a bit out of the box eventhough still they try to omit the word lacquer. But in Japanese modelling books as far as I remember the authors do not have any reason to forget this word.

 

A paint that can be mostly diluted or rarely thinned with water is actually better called only aqueous or even water-color. But it is easy to say acrylic than to say aqueous.
The term acrylic literally or technically does not mean that the paint is always water soluble. It just technically states the medium that forms the body of a paint. It is a kind of synthetic resin.
(The type of a paint is totally different.  And many medium can form a type of paint.)
 

And here is another example, the acrylic car paints. Are thay water soluble? Unfortunately no. They need organic solvents to be thinned, almost all of them.

 

Here in this topic we had concentrated on the medium of the paint where actually the obvious reason was actually the type of the paint itself.
The types are lacquer, enamel and (let’s name it easy) latex.

 

Enamels: almost can not be dissolved with their thinners after they cure. Therefore better for brush painting.

Lacquers: can always be dissolved easily with their thinners even after they cure. Therefore not easy to handle for brush painting. 

Latex: Still mostly can not be dissolved after they cure but they form another type of elasticity compared to enamels. As in enamels easier to brush compared to lacquers.

 

Hence, a lacquer can be acrylic based too due to the medium used in it as an ingredient.
 

I know at first it sounds weird but we are only the victims of bad marketing process. And it still continous as it will be continuing unless we agree to start a mutiny 😋

 

And just before someone asks, water dilutes commonly used Gunze or Tamiya aqueous paints. They do not thin them. Hence, they can not dissolve those paints when they cure. But, they can easily be dissolved with their own thinners as they are lacquers type of paints.

Edited by clumsy
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