A-6e tram intruder weapons loads

[ElectroSoldier]

On 1/20/2022 at 7:34 PM, Dave Roof said:

Not Navy, but an interesting load on a Marine Intruder at Sheik Isa during ODS. Starboard side was also a TER with two slant loaded LAU-10 (outboard) and a GBU-12 (inboard), based on the note I received from the Marine that sent to the photo.

 

 

What is that AIM-9L?M mounted to?

 

The A-6E must be top of the tree for shall I say "interesting" load-outs.

From an AIM-9 to its own jet engine for servicing.

[GW8345]

8 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

What is that AIM-9L?M mounted to?

 

The A-6E must be top of the tree for shall I say "interesting" load-outs.

From an AIM-9 to its own jet engine for servicing.

Honestly, there's no way to tell from that photos and here's why;

 

By the late 80/early 90's the AIM-9L was authorized to the same rocket motor as the AIM-9M so the only difference between the was two seeker head and externally, they looked the same (depending on what rocket motor the missile had, there were 5 different motors authorized for the L/M at the time the Lima's were in service with the USN/USMC) . The only way to tell the seeker heads apart was by their designation stenciled (painted) on it, the AIM-9L used the AN/DSQ-29 while the -9M used the WCU-4 Series.

 

So, unless someone can blow up that photo and read what is written on the seeker it could be a Lima or Mike.

 

With that said, I will add this, early Lima's (before the Mike's came out) did not have an arming key on the rocket motor, after the Mike's were released to the fleet the Lima's started to get the same (upgraded) rocket motors that the Mike's used so by the late 80's you couldn't tell the two apart except by the seeker head (and you had to read what type it was). If you are doing a late 70's / early-mid 80's Lima, don't put an arming key on the rocket motor, after that, they probably had an arming key.

 

By the type of arming key that Sidewinder has, I'd say it's a Mike. I'm guessing that for that time frame the Lima's did not have the "late style" type of arming key and were probably still configured with the "early type".

 

For those wondering what the difference was between the "early style" and "late style" arming keys was, the early style was removable (like the kind you see on an AGM-88 HARM) while the late style was basically a T-Handle that rotated and was not removable.

 

gw

[tomthegrom]

Hi everyone,

I am planning to build another intruder again soon. Probably a jet from the 90s. 

 

I am wondering if the A6 was a TALD carrier? If it was what else would likely be loaded with it?

 

Again I am looking for something interesting. I have TACTs pods, CBU, LGBs, mavericks, snakeyes, MK83 with conical fins, rocket pods etc in the stash. Please suggest something cool!

 

Cheers

Tom 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by tomthegrom

[Collin]

I would search through the threads on this site, lot of past discussions on Intruder weapon loads. 
 

TALD was authorized (AFAIK) but never saw an A-6 carry them, baby Hornets would drop them for A-A weapon shoots, or maybe an S-3 if they were lucky. F-18/S-3/A-7 dropped them during ODS. 
 

Cheers

Collin

[tomthegrom]

Hi Collin,

Cheers for the info on the TALD. 

 

I will trawl through some of the other A6 threads. When I created this thread a few years ago, you and GW gave me some great ideas and I ended up building the boomers CAG with a SUCAP load out. Hopefully I can find something else as interesting. 

 

Maybe a tacts pod or maverick or even some para flares could be cool.

 

[GW8345]

The A-6E TRAM was authorized to carry and employ ADM-141A/B TALD as follows;

 

A) Station 1/2/4/5 MER/BRU-41 IMER shoulder stations (for composite wing aircraft, aft outboard shoulder stations shall remain empty)(FOR BRU 41 IMER,  

                                                                                              FORWARD SHOULDER STATIONS SHALL BE EMPTY)

 

or

 

B) Stations 1/2/4/5 IMER centerline stations

 

or

 

C) Stations 1/5 IMER outboard stations and Stations 2/4 IMER centerline stations

 

For load "A", the following weapons are authorized to be loaded on stations 2/4 with TALD loaded on station 1/5; 

MK 81 HD/LD. MK-82HD/LD, MK 83 HD/LD. MK 20, CBU-99/100, GBU-12, GBU-16.

 

For Load "B", the following weapons are authorized to be loaded on station 1/5 with TALD loaded on stations 2/4;

AGM-45, AGM-65, AGM-84/84F, AGM-88, WALLEYE I ERDL, AERO-1D. MK 81/82/83/84 HD/LD. MK 20. GBU-12. GBU-16.

 

For Load "B", the following weapons are authorized to be loaded on station 2/4 with TALD loaded on stations 1/5;

AGM-45, AGM-65, AGM-84/84F, AGM-88, WALLEYE I ERDL, AERO-1D. MK 81/82/83/84 HD/LD. MK 20. GBU-12. GBU-16. GBU-10

 

For Load "C", the following weapons are authorized to be loaded on station 2/4 with TALD loaded on stations 1/5;

AGM-45, AGM-65, AGM-84/84F, AGM-88, WALLEYE I ERDL, AERO-1D. MK 81/82/83/84 HD/LD. MK 20. GBU-12. GBU-16. GBU-10

 

I've never seen the A-6's carry TALD for actual tactical missions, only for training/missile shoots. When they did carry them they never carried anything else, just the MER/IMER with TALD loaded.

 

hth

GW

[tomthegrom]

Thank you fornthe exceptionally detailed answer. It is fascinating reading. I would like to load more than just a TALD so I might save those for something else. 

 

What else was typically loaded when the intruder carried the AGM-65?

 

Thank you all for your expertise.

 

Tom

[Collin]

14 hours ago, tomthegrom said:

Thank you fornthe exceptionally detailed answer. It is fascinating reading. I would like to load more than just a TALD so I might save those for something else. 

 

What else was typically loaded when the intruder carried the AGM-65?

 

Thank you all for your expertise.

 

Tom

Only late model SWIP-modified A-6E aircraft carried Maverick…either AGM-65E (laser) or AGM-65F (Navy specific IR variant). So if you are doing an aircraft in the 1992 and beyond timeframe…Maverick was carried. 
 

In our Airwing we had IR Mav loaded on our legacy Hornets and Intruders typically paired with a GBU-12, maybe a ROCKEYE or two on the Intruder. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Collin

[Janissary]

Learning so much from this thread and a few similar ones, thank you.

 

I am currently working on a 1/48 HB A-6E Tram. It will be a VA-35 modex 505 out of Saratoga during the early stages of ODS. Here is a pic of what I am going for (taken from https://www.dstorm.eu/pages/en/usa/a-6.html and is David F. Brown's photo): I love the perforated brakes, which was somewhat rare at that point!

 

I am deciding the load out. I would like MERs, drop tanks, Mk.20s and Mk.82s only. I don't want a 'full MER' load out, but what I have in mind:

 

- Centerline: An empty MER or a drop tank.

 

- Inboard wing pylons: A drop tank on each

 

- Left outboard pylon: MER, three Mk.82s (bottom forward, bottom aft, left aft)

 

- Right outboard pylon: MER, three Mk.20s (bottom forward, bottom aft, right aft)

 

Maybe not probable, but is it at least a possible (legal) load out? If not, could you suggest a configuration that uses these bits? 

 

I am also open to using two (rather than three) 20s and 82s. In that case, for the outboard MERs, would these be bottom forward and aft, or aft slanted, or forward slanted?

 

An unrelated question: If the squadron and the time frame were not known, is there anyway to tell whether this is a metal or composite wing bird when the wings are deployed like in the pic? I am trying to figure what external features would be the tell for composite. 

 

thank you. 

 

[GW8345]

7 hours ago, Janissary said:

Learning so much from this thread and a few similar ones, thank you.

 

I am currently working on a 1/48 HB A-6E Tram. It will be a VA-35 modex 505 out of Saratoga during the early stages of ODS. Here is a pic of what I am going for (taken from https://www.dstorm.eu/pages/en/usa/a-6.html and is David F. Brown's photo): I love the perforated brakes, which was somewhat rare at that point!

 

I am deciding the load out. I would like MERs, drop tanks, Mk.20s and Mk.82s only. I don't want a 'full MER' load out, but what I have in mind:

 

- Centerline: An empty MER or a drop tank.

 

- Inboard wing pylons: A drop tank on each

 

- Left outboard pylon: MER, three Mk.82s (bottom forward, bottom aft, left aft)

 

- Right outboard pylon: MER, three Mk.20s (bottom forward, bottom aft, right aft)

 

Maybe not probable, but is it at least a possible (legal) load out? If not, could you suggest a configuration that uses these bits? 

 

I am also open to using two (rather than three) 20s and 82s. In that case, for the outboard MERs, would these be bottom forward and aft, or aft slanted, or forward slanted?

 

An unrelated question: If the squadron and the time frame were not known, is there anyway to tell whether this is a metal or composite wing bird when the wings are deployed like in the pic? I am trying to figure what external features would be the tell for composite. 

 

thank you. 

 

The load out you are looking to do is not a legal load out, here is my recommendation (and legal) for a load out using the ordnance you listed;

 

Centerline - drop tank

Inboard wing pylon - drop tank

Left outboard pylon - MER with three Mk 82's (bottom aft, forward left, forward right)

Right outboard pylon - MER with three Mk 20's (bottom aft, forward left, forward right)

 

The way you have the MER's loaded was not authorized, it would cause a store to aircraft collision if the MER had to be jettisoned. With the MER's loaded the way I recommend, in the even of the MER being jettisoned the MER would nose down and fall cleanly away from the aircraft.

 

If you want to only use two bombs per MER, they would be both be loaded on the bottom (forward and aft) stations.

 

As for the composite wing question, check out Tommy's blog post;

 

https://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2014/01/grumman-6-wing-fold-differences.html

 

Also, if you are doing a VA-35 A-6E from the early days of IDS it won't be as clean as the one pictured above. I was in the Airwing (VF-103 The Sluggers) for that cruise and we were on station for 5 months before the war started flying our rear off so the planes didn't look that good when the war started. After the war we hung around for a week and a half waiting for word that we could go home (finally got word on 10 March 91 and transited the Suez on the 11th, finally pulled into NAS Mayport on the 28th) and while we waited and on the way home, everyone cleaned up their planes. At the end of the cruise all squadrons had to go through what was called a "post cruise corrosion inspections" so we had to get all the plane ready for that so everything was cleaned and freshly painted. During the build up and the war, only necessary maintenance was done, we didn't have time to do a lot of painting and Saratoga had a rule that we could only spot paint our planes and could only use a small amount of paint when we did so the planes were quite a patch work of greys. 

 

I don't recall any of VA-35's birds being composite wing, I believe they were all metal winged birds.

 

Here's a link to the cruise book for the 90/91 cruise most of the photos were taken during the Desert Shield time frame but there are some from the war;

 

https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv60-91/index.html

 

hth

GW

[Janissary]

3 hours ago, GW8345 said:

The load out you are looking to do is not a legal load out, here is my recommendation (and legal) for a load out using the ordnance you listed;

 

Centerline - drop tank

Inboard wing pylon - drop tank

Left outboard pylon - MER with three Mk 82's (bottom aft, forward left, forward right)

Right outboard pylon - MER with three Mk 20's (bottom aft, forward left, forward right)

 

The way you have the MER's loaded was not authorized, it would cause a store to aircraft collision if the MER had to be jettisoned. With the MER's loaded the way I recommend, in the even of the MER being jettisoned the MER would nose down and fall cleanly away from the aircraft.

 

If you want to only use two bombs per MER, they would be both be loaded on the bottom (forward and aft) stations.

 

As for the composite wing question, check out Tommy's blog post;

 

https://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2014/01/grumman-6-wing-fold-differences.html

 

Also, if you are doing a VA-35 A-6E from the early days of IDS it won't be as clean as the one pictured above. I was in the Airwing (VF-103 The Sluggers) for that cruise and we were on station for 5 months before the war started flying our rear off so the planes didn't look that good when the war started. After the war we hung around for a week and a half waiting for word that we could go home (finally got word on 10 March 91 and transited the Suez on the 11th, finally pulled into NAS Mayport on the 28th) and while we waited and on the way home, everyone cleaned up their planes. At the end of the cruise all squadrons had to go through what was called a "post cruise corrosion inspections" so we had to get all the plane ready for that so everything was cleaned and freshly painted. During the build up and the war, only necessary maintenance was done, we didn't have time to do a lot of painting and Saratoga had a rule that we could only spot paint our planes and could only use a small amount of paint when we did so the planes were quite a patch work of greys. 

 

I don't recall any of VA-35's birds being composite wing, I believe they were all metal winged birds.

 

Here's a link to the cruise book for the 90/91 cruise most of the photos were taken during the Desert Shield time frame but there are some from the war;

 

https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv60-91/index.html

 

hth

GW

 

Thank you. That is extremely useful. I understand why out of three, two's got to be forward. I am leaning toward what you suggested for the wings, though I may keep the centerline empty or with a MER. Would that be legal? I think I have seen a few Alphas with a centerline MER, just loved the look of it. 

 

Fascinating to hear that you were with the Sluggers!  The story behind my build is that I actually saw several of these jets during the fall of ’90. Saratoga was in the Med, headed toward the Suez (and you were apparently on it!). It stopped at various ports in Turkey—Antalya and Izmir, as shown in the navy site.de link you posted. I was either in middle school or high school at the time.  There was no internet back then, but the city I lived in (Eskisehir) has a major air force base, and there was a lot of buzz about Saratoga’s port stop. To our incredible surprise and joy, a few Tomcats, Hornets, and Intruders were flown to Eskisehir. For several days in October ’90, we watched them fly over our city and even our school.  

 

That was the first time I ever saw these American jets in real life. I distinctly remember taking my glasses off and watching them in awe, wanting nothing but air between my eyes and the jets—just to feel closer to them. I begged my dad to take me near the Eskisehir AFB, and he did. It's basically right in the city. I brought my binoculars and watched the runway for 20–30 minutes, totally transfixed.  What I saw left a lasting impression on me: an F-14 with an arrow on the tail, an Intruder with a panther, and an F-18 taxiing from the hangar area one after another for takeoff. At the time, I had no idea about Navy squadrons or their markings.  Of course, all of this makes sense now, knowing Saratoga’s timeline and the squadrons aboard. I’ve since learned that VF-74 also sent a Tomcat to Eskisehir, but I didn’t get to see it. Too bad as my modeling back then was full of 1/72 Italeri F-14s, and VF-74 was featured prominently in their “A+” kits!

 

Here are two videos cutting right through those months: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GW8345]

21 hours ago, Janissary said:

 

Thank you. That is extremely useful. I understand why out of three, two's got to be forward. I am leaning toward what you suggested for the wings, though I may keep the centerline empty or with a MER. Would that be legal? I think I have seen a few Alphas with a centerline MER, just loved the look of it. 

 

Fascinating to hear that you were with the Sluggers!  The story behind my build is that I actually saw several of these jets during the fall of ’90. Saratoga was in the Med, headed toward the Suez (and you were apparently on it!). It stopped at various ports in Turkey—Antalya and Izmir, as shown in the navy site.de link you posted. I was either in middle school or high school at the time.  There was no internet back then, but the city I lived in (Eskisehir) has a major air force base, and there was a lot of buzz about Saratoga’s port stop. To our incredible surprise and joy, a few Tomcats, Hornets, and Intruders were flown to Eskisehir. For several days in October ’90, we watched them fly over our city and even our school.  

 

That was the first time I ever saw these American jets in real life. I distinctly remember taking my glasses off and watching them in awe, wanting nothing but air between my eyes and the jets—just to feel closer to them. I begged my dad to take me near the Eskisehir AFB, and he did. It's basically right in the city. I brought my binoculars and watched the runway for 20–30 minutes, totally transfixed.  What I saw left a lasting impression on me: an F-14 with an arrow on the tail, an Intruder with a panther, and an F-18 taxiing from the hangar area one after another for takeoff. At the time, I had no idea about Navy squadrons or their markings.  Of course, all of this makes sense now, knowing Saratoga’s timeline and the squadrons aboard. I’ve since learned that VF-74 also sent a Tomcat to Eskisehir, but I didn’t get to see it. Too bad as my modeling back then was full of 1/72 Italeri F-14s, and VF-74 was featured prominently in their “A+” kits!

 

Here are two videos cutting right through those months: 

 

 

 

 

 

 

O the memories!

Having the centerline empty or with an empty MER is legal so go for it.

 

I remember sending birds to Eskisehir, I didn't make the det but did help launch the birds that went. Also remember pulling into Antalya and Izmir, those were our first port calls of the cruise. We came out of the Red Sea, did the port calls and then went back to the Red Sea to be on station in case something happened.

 

BTW, at the end of the first video is the E-2 incident that happened and it shows the KA-6D that the E-2 hit, the reason why the horizontal stab has a nice clean cut line is because they had to cut the stab in order to get the two planes separated. 

 

Also, the F-18 on Cat 4 was in tension and everyone started dragging fire hoses across the angle because the KA-6D was fully fueled, that was a fun morning (happened around 0530, I was walking back from the bow when it happened).

 

As us retiree's say "good times".

 

GW

[Raptor.777]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:05 PM, GW8345 said:

Only saw VA-35 load a Skipper once, in fact, I only loaded that damn thing once (when I was in VA-82). The engineers in China Lake who thought up that POS should have  been taken out behind the ordnance shop and beaten with their slide rulers!

What was wrong with the AGM 123 skippers?

[GW8345]

Where do I start;

 

1) The AGM-123 was a PITA to handle and load due to the fins being deployed and not folded. It was difficult to move around the deck due to it's placement on the weapon skid, making the skid top heavy (not something you want to move around on a pitching rolling deck). Usually for 1,000 lb LBG's (Mk 83 LGB/GBU-16's) we would just hand hump them (hand load them) but for the AGM-123, while you could hand hump it, most of the time we just used a hoist so you had to rig the hoist which slowed down loading, something you didn't want to do when you had limited time between launches to get everything loaded. Back then, we usually had about 30 minutes to reload all the jets for the next launch and we usually had about 8 ordies to load anywhere from 2 to 4 aircraft. It takes 8 ordies to hand hump it and 5 ordies to hoist load it so that didn't leave that many guys to do other things needed to get the bird's ready for the next launch. The engineer's out at China Lake (who came up with the idea) had no clue on what it took to load it (they used SATS Loaders and never hand humped bombs) and had no practical knowledge of deck operations so they didn't factor any real world issues when coming up with the weapon.

 

2) While they shoved a rocket motor up it's rear, they never upgraded the guidance section. The guidance section was never upgraded to compensate for the missile's (yes, it was a missile) speed and so it couldn't keep up and didn't guide worth a @#$%.

 

3) It wasn't an improvement over anything and was actually worse then a regular Mk 83 LGB/GBU-16. It was just a waste of money, man power and resources.

 

Just my perspective of having to deal with the thing, I'm just thankful I only had to load it once and deal with a few other times, it was a total POS IMO.

 

GW