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Rivets for Zvezda 1/48 Hind kits


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I got my glasshouse Hind Zvezda kit in and have already ordered everything I'll need from Super-Hobby to get it to where I think it needs to be. 

 

I've been building my photo reference library and have a question regarding the rivets again. That led me back here and to this similiar thread - 

 

Looking closely at your images Gabor, from what I can see these rivets are not machine done but done by hand which would account for rivets that are not in line, are too high or low, or entire panels being marked for riveting but it not even being done. Can you confirm all Hind versions are hand riveted?  Rivet detail varies between versions so a one stop rivet decal sheet is just getting it in the ball park depending on what you are building. Is that also true?

 

Rivet line indicator is marked but not completed circled in yellow.

JFfRtOh.jpeg.c440e2523138ed20fcd8ad0ef52033a8.jpeg

 

Non-linear rivet lines, rivets too high, too low, or not evenly spaced.

1419469627_undefined-Imgur.jpg.ba08b938f878c915baedaa80982c747c.jpg

 

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12 hours ago, snake36bravo said:

Can you confirm all Hind versions are hand riveted?

Gabor has told us in the past that you can not switch panels between aircraft like one can on US birds because they will not fit. 

Edited by Tank
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This is a good question from  snake36bravo.

The ones I seen in overhaul and completely striped down to bare metal had little "metal work" carried out on them. It was mainly patching up with riveted on pieces to hide any damage. 

I have not seen the actual building of the Hinds in which ever factory in Russia it was done. So could not comment.

 

BUT

I would think, yes it was all riveted "by hand" so to say and those lines for rivets would not be drawn with a laser!  : )  : ) 

How much of this is visible on a 48th scale kit??? I would say nothing at all. 

Would one want to reproduce it, make a prefect reproduction in scale of one particular airframe??? Well you would need the actual heli in your back garden to go out and take reference measurements between riveting sessions. 

Now this would be  a real rivet counting!!!!  : )  : )  : )

 

As to the "marked" rivet lines. I believe they are actual real rivet lines but have  a flash rivet heads. Would need to go back to my archive and look at those "naked" airframes. But I think it will be easier to look at a real helicopter in few weeks time and have a look at them. Also it is a simple look at the construction of the tail unit, there are a certain number of ribs and they are all riveted to the skin!

 

Why would there be both sinked  rivets and  some of those "mushrooms" in one particular area, will have to ask our airframe people. 

 

 

Still on the subject of rivets on Zvezda Mi-24. 

Yesterday and today was the annual Moson Show 2022 where Eduard had a strong presence and the brand new line of products, namely the Rivet decals was on sale. I got one set for test. It looks fantastic! Just as the price of it. At the show with special discount it was "just" 56 Euro while the normal price is 65. We did speak about this with the Boss of Eduard Vladímir Sulc. This is the price of it was the comment from him which reflects the cost of production / research and development. One as a modeller can argue with this but there is little sense. He knows what it takes to make it and would obviously make money on his product. After all this is a business and not charity. 

I did point out the fact that the actual kit for which this rivet decals are made cost less than half of that!!! Also since the Zvezda kit is so "naked" one would need also to buy at least a cockpit in what ever form (be it a Quinta decal or a resin alternative), get some other extras like photoetch detail parts, could be some weapons . . .   And the price of the final Hind "set" would be well over 150 Euro or far more. It is a bit strange in my opinion, but the problem is that Zvezda originally decided to make it so "naked" and all the cost of this now has to be payed by the modellers!

 

Best regards

Gabor 

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On 4/23/2022 at 12:01 PM, Tank said:

Gabor has told us in the past that you can not switch panels between aircraft like one can on US birds because they will not fit. 

 

Actually one can change panels but not INTERCHANGE!

There are brand new panels provided by the manufacturer to every sort of airframe be it fighter or helicopter. They are so to say "raw" panels which are a bit oversized and have absolutely no rivet or fixing holes for the locks. They are all cut to size and holes are drilled on them before fitting on the given airframe. Isnt this similar on western airframes??

 

Best regards

Gabor

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Gabor, thanks for the reply. I have noticed both the mushroom rivets and flush rivets on the Mi-24A Hind B. I dont imagine this would be different on the other Hind airframes meaning they are also mixed type. You already indicated there are multiple sizes to the mushroom rivets. Too bad there isnt very much in the way of manufacturing images. I realize this is a modeling forum and in 1/48 its neglible. In 1/72 its just madness. I will say if I still traveled to Moscow I would definitely spend time with a number of Hinds at the musuems there to catalog rivet details and differences though. 

 

After ordering Zvezda 7273, the aftermarket Ace PE, and Eduard UB-32A-24 rockets I only ended up 70,63 Euro lighter in my wallet. That might be because that kit is only produced in 1/72 scale by Zvezda. If they made one in 1/48 I'd definitely buy it even with missing panel lines, rivet detail, and higher cost. The kit is actually both a Mi-24A and Mi-24B. It has the A model cockpit with odd rod antenna mounted on the greenhouse roof but has the Hind B tail rotor mounted on the port side and the 7 horizontal reinforcing strips on the port aft hull. The A did not have these and the tail rotor was mounted on the starboard side. It has B features but does not have the B changes to the nose.

 

71HAOZ770PL._AC_SL1436_.thumb.jpg.0937a50cd8ac2fafb7954e6511660101.jpg

 

 

Edited by snake36bravo
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18 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

 Isnt this similar on western airframes??


Getting outside my knowledge area, I was under the impression we could swap parts amount aircraft. While not certified to fly and that might be the big difference I have seen different parts from different aircraft merry up fine.

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7 hours ago, snake36bravo said:

The A did not have these and the tail rotor was mounted on the starboard side.


I am trying to find the old links but the A had the tail rotor on both sides.

 

 

 

 

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8 hours ago, snake36bravo said:

Gabor, thanks for the reply. I have noticed both the mushroom rivets and flush rivets on the Mi-24A Hind B. I dont imagine this would be different on the other Hind airframes meaning they are also mixed type. You already indicated there are multiple sizes to the mushroom rivets. Too bad there isnt very much in the way of manufacturing images. I realize this is a modeling forum and in 1/48 its neglible. In 1/72 its just madness. I will say if I still traveled to Moscow I would definitely spend time with a number of Hinds at the musuems there to catalog rivet details and differences though. 

 

After ordering Zvezda 7273, the aftermarket Ace PE, and Eduard UB-32A-24 rockets I only ended up 70,63 Euro lighter in my wallet. That might be because that kit is only produced in 1/72 scale by Zvezda. If they made one in 1/48 I'd definitely buy it even with missing panel lines, rivet detail, and higher cost. The kit is actually both a Mi-24A and Mi-24B. It has the A model cockpit with odd rod antenna mounted on the greenhouse roof but has the Hind B tail rotor mounted on the port side and the 7 horizontal reinforcing strips on the port aft hull. The A did not have these and the tail rotor was mounted on the starboard side. It has B features but does not have the B changes to the nose.

 

 

 

 

What do you mean by Mi-24B? B version had the tail rotor like early Mi-24A.

 

BTW - in socialism all was hand made 🙂 Just as an example the Trabant

 

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8 hours ago, snake36bravo said:

Gabor, thanks for the reply. I have noticed both the mushroom rivets and flush rivets on the Mi-24A Hind B. I dont imagine this would be different on the other Hind airframes meaning they are also mixed type. You already indicated there are multiple sizes to the mushroom rivets. Too bad there isnt very much in the way of manufacturing images. I realize this is a modeling forum and in 1/48 its neglible. In 1/72 its just madness. I will say if I still traveled to Moscow I would definitely spend time with a number of Hinds at the musuems there to catalog rivet details and differences though. 

 

After ordering Zvezda 7273, the aftermarket Ace PE, and Eduard UB-32A-24 rockets I only ended up 70,63 Euro lighter in my wallet. That might be because that kit is only produced in 1/72 scale by Zvezda. If they made one in 1/48 I'd definitely buy it even with missing panel lines, rivet detail, and higher cost. The kit is actually both a Mi-24A and Mi-24B. It has the A model cockpit with odd rod antenna mounted on the greenhouse roof but has the Hind B tail rotor mounted on the port side and the 7 horizontal reinforcing strips on the port aft hull. The A did not have these and the tail rotor was mounted on the starboard side. It has B features but does not have the B changes to the nose.

 

71HAOZ770PL._AC_SL1436_.thumb.jpg.0937a50cd8ac2fafb7954e6511660101.jpg

 

 

 

 

1.  My commnet on the price of the kit was of course for the 48th scale version! This is the one for which Eduard just published the rivet decals. I did speak to one of the managers at the show and also to the big Boss about these decals. The plan is to have them made for other versions, but Vladimir Sulc also said that in future there is a chance of doing it for 72nd scale. I would say it all depends on how the 48th scale decals will be welcomed by modellers.

 

2.  As for the 48th scale Mi-24A from Zvezda. In principle they have indicated that with time (same as in 72nd scale production schedule) there could be other versions also in 48th scale and I would say it will include the A version. 

 

3.  Rivets on 72nd scale Zvezda kit? I personally know several modellers who are doing this, one of them was at the show this weekend and I am 1000% positive will produce a very nice replica with rivets! These are negative rivets added with riveter.

 

4.  Both HGW and Archer do make rivet lines which are suitable for 72nd scale. It would be madness (and not the "One Step Beyond" type : )  : )  ) to add them all, but yes some modellers are . . .     (including myself! )

 

5.  Mi-24 Hind's one can find all over the world! There is no need to go to Russia just for this. I would say in other countries, museums one would have even better opportunity to get up really close.

 

Best regards

Gabor   

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20 minutes ago, ya-gabor said:

5.  Mi-24 Hind's one can find all over the world! There is no need to go to Russia just for this. I would say in other countries, museums one would have even better opportunity to get up really close.

 

Best regards

Gabor   

 

True... but count the rivets on EACH of them... The guys would be surprised :D

 

Brak dostępnego opisu zdjęcia.

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2 hours ago, Tank said:


I am trying to find the old links but the A had the tail rotor on both sides.

 

 

 

 

 

My comments are based off 3 seperate references on the Hind and use the Warpact/NATO designators. 

 

Warbirds Fotofax "Mi-24 Hind" by Hans-Heiri Stapfer

Variants.jpg.5f0520ec4a8df4a4dada6b5a30f56621.jpg

 

"Mil Mi-24 Attack Helicopter" by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Kommisarov

1901358690_Hinddesignators.thumb.jpg.54b569ea9c535ae7921616561b58ba8f.jpg

MI24A-B.thumb.jpg.3641c9ad922598694e3df6b654cd960e.jpg

 

1918149873_tailrotors.thumb.jpg.358027a86a11570270d5cb442725e8be.jpg

Edited by snake36bravo
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FAA flight design approval requires interchangeability of parts as a requirement. "The applicant sends the ACO a data package for review and approval. This data package describes the part design, which includes materials, processes, test specifications, system compatibility, maintenance instructions, and part interchangeability."

 

US helos and aircraft are manufactured to tight tolerances and have pre-drilled plates versus ones that are slapped on and riveted over possibly already drilled holes in the ribbing which Gabor indicates is done in Russia. Plexiglass is the only non-predrilled item Im aware of that are then matched to holes in the windscreen or canopy then drilled.

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48 minutes ago, stakor said:

 

True... but count the rivets on EACH of them... The guys would be surprised :D

 

Brak dostępnego opisu zdjęcia.

 

: )   : )   : )   : )

 

 

Actually not really! I have been visiting air shows for more than 45 years and in most places they would simply say: “Oh another crazy modeller”

Of course I would not go up to a heli all armed up and ready to take off.

 

There are some places in the world where they don’t like visitors and try to keep them as far as possible from exhibits with all sorts of barriers and more.

But one would be surprised how helpful both military units and museum when you develop with them a good working relation and they know that you mean well and the visit is not just to collect some “souvenirs” from aircraft. I had great help from museums when contacting them in advance and asking about access to some strange places: “Oh another crazy modeller” y would say, but they let me in and gave all the support I needed. Same with AF units, bringing out from storage some things which one would not normally see on aircraft / helicopter at air shows or in static anywhere! It is all about diplomacy and the language one uses! Also a lot of paper work in advance but in the end it is all worth it!!!

 

Concerning the Eduard Rivet Decal for the Mi-24V one small information. One can ask the question of how authentic it is???  Well the person doing the design is in real life working on actual Hinds so he really made a 48th scale so to say “down-scale” of the real 1 / 1 scale heli!

 

So the comment “Oh another crazy modeller” is applicable also to pilots and technicians!    : )    : )    : )

 

Best regards

 

Gabor

 

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11 minutes ago, snake36bravo said:

FAA flight design approval requires interchangeability of parts as a requirement. "The applicant sends the ACO a data package for review and approval. This data package describes the part design, which includes materials, processes, test specifications, system compatibility, maintenance instructions, and part interchangeability."

 

US helos and aircraft are manufactured to tight tolerances and have pre-drilled plates versus ones that are slapped on and riveted over possibly already drilled holes in the ribbing which Gabor indicates is done in Russia. Plexiglass is the only non-predrilled item Im aware of that are then matched to holes in the windscreen or canopy then drilled.

 

A serious difference should be made between civilian and millitary aviation!

 

How it is put on heli or aircraft could be strange with its so called "hand made" methods, but the actual parts, replacement parts are to a very high quality standard in every possible way!!! 

 

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall with 4477th when they were operating those Indonesian MiG-21F-13's and the Egyptian MiG-23MS & BN's out of  Tonopah with Red Eagles. Maintenance and support must have been of the “hand made” sort, but most certainly extremely interesting!   : )  : )   : )

 

Best regards

Gabor

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3 minutes ago, ya-gabor said:

A serious difference should be made between civilian and millitary aviation!

 

Its all out there online and I can affirm with both the CH-47J, OH-58D/F, and AH-64D/E that parts interchangeability is a requirement just as it is in civilian aircraft. No one has to drill new holes in the deck of a Blackhawk for an engine swap or tail boom swap for example. Simply because its a military design does not mean it does not have to meet FAA approval to fly over US cities and towns. There is no hard pass and military aircraft that are de-registered must acquire an FAA N number designator and meet the same airworthy certification process as a regular Cessna 172. The former Army Hueys and Blackhawks I've seen flying civil aviation for logging, firefighting, LE, or SAR are usually stripped of a lot of items to save on weight but they have to be certified still to fly and the FAA does that.

 

The Huey tail boom is held in place with 4 bolts. I can only imagine what a tail boom swap on a Hind would take with all those mixed rivets.

 

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The tail boom of the Mi-24 is a one piece structure and I would imagine that it can be replaced with another one. I have to count but there are some 40 or so big screws inside holding it.   : )    : )

The aircraft repair units, factories have such big units in storage also, so I would expect they are fairly easy to replace. 

To do the same on different panels or patches is a very different thing! As described before a fit and match, time consuming! Especially the two big nose side One Piece panels on a MiG-21 which go back almost 1/3 of fuselage from the front.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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In Poland one of Mi-24D with the tail number 013 has been restored after the crash with the use of several parts from another destroyed Mi-24D (014). Regarding the tail - the procedure of exchange was also done at least two times - one between Mi-24Ds (177 tail has been damaged with the rotor blade from other crashed Hind) and second I know is when Mi-24V after crash got tail from Mi-24D. And of course this is now source of confusion to modellers who want to make the model correctly and have no knowledge of the difference between D and V tails 😉  

 

... and as far as I remember the technician who was replacing the tail in 177 had to do it ASAP and was working on it whole night alone. BTW - it is interesting that during the crash a photographer was present at the airfield and the pictures  he took are most amazing and terrifying at the same time I ever seen.

Edited by stakor
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9 hours ago, snake36bravo said:

 

My comments are based off 3 seperate references on the Hind and use the Warpact/NATO designators. 

 

Warbirds Fotofax "Mi-24 Hind" by Hans-Heiri Stapfer

Variants.jpg.5f0520ec4a8df4a4dada6b5a30f56621.jpg

 

"Mil Mi-24 Attack Helicopter" by Yefim Gordon and Dmitriy Kommisarov

1901358690_Hinddesignators.thumb.jpg.54b569ea9c535ae7921616561b58ba8f.jpg

MI24A-B.thumb.jpg.3641c9ad922598694e3df6b654cd960e.jpg

 

1918149873_tailrotors.thumb.jpg.358027a86a11570270d5cb442725e8be.jpg


Here is some additional photos.

https://sites.google.com/site/stingraysheligalleries/mi-24a-hind-a-plus-preproduction-models

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On 4/22/2022 at 11:25 PM, snake36bravo said:

 

Looking closely at your images Gabor, from what I can see these rivets are not machine done but done by hand which would account for rivets that are not in line, are too high or low, or entire panels being marked for riveting but it not even being done. Can you confirm all Hind versions are hand riveted?  Rivet detail varies between versions so a one stop rivet decal sheet is just getting it in the ball park depending on what you are building. Is that also true?

 

Rivet line indicator is marked but not completed circled in yellow.

JFfRtOh.jpeg.c440e2523138ed20fcd8ad0ef52033a8.jpeg

 

 

 

I had a look at this question. Thing is they are NOT market for riveting. There are actual internal ribs there. What you see is spot welding! The internal ribs are "attached" this way to the outer skin. I am sure the Russian desingers had a very good reason for using bigger or even bigger rivets in other places where skin panels are joined, or where the area is reinforced!

 

There was no point in using flush riveting on a helicopter. It was much easier to spot weld those internal ribs. Inside the tail boom of the Mi-24 there was plenty of space to do this. FOr example on the Mi-8 inside the boom the ribs are riveted in a traditional way, while on the fuselage structure in many places also spotwelding was used. 

 

Best regards

Gabor

Edited by ya-gabor
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3 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

 

 

I had a look at this question. Thing is they are NOT market for riveting. There are actual internal ribs there. What you see is spot welding! The internal ribs are "attached" this way to the outer skin. I am sure the Russian desingers had a very good reason for using bigger or even bigger rivets in other places where skin panels are joined, or where the area is reinforced!

 

There was no point in using flush riveting on a helicopter. It was much easier to spot weld those internal ribs. Inside the tail boom of the Mi-24 there was plenty of space to do this. FOr example on the Mi-8 inside the boom the ribs are riveted in a traditional way, while on the fuselage structure in many places also spotwelding was used. 

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

Thanks for continuing to expand on the engineering and design aspects of the Hind. Commonality of parts being a goal of Soviet program it makes sense they just swapped Mi-8 existing features over to the Hind. You would need to understand my day job to see why I view the construction of the Hind as not being very efficient by introducing additional complexity as it has both flush riveting, spot welding now, and the use of rivets of varied size all done by hand versus machining for higher tolerances. Those sorts of things are absolutely irrelevant to modeling. Nor can they be 'reproduced' accurately outside of 'larger planes' forum or is there any reason to really do so.

 

Harasho

Edited by snake36bravo
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I know there is no relevance of spot welding or flush riveting for a 72nd scale kit build, although I think riveting is very much so visible even in this small scale on aircraft like a natural metal Mirage III or an early varnish covered MiG-15.

 

It wasn’t me who raised the question of those spot welded lines. I could only clear some points on it.

Is it relevant possible to reproduce??? Don’t think so.

But is it interesting? Yes, most certainly in my opinion!

 

Some insight into how planes or helicopters are built could add a little spice to forums like this.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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As already stated, I appreciate you adding to how this helicopter in particular is made. IMO how it is built reminds of the Law of the Instrument - "When you're a hammer everythings a nail". The early cockpit is interesting which is why I prefer the Mi-24a to later models that copied tandem cockpit design but seperated the pilot and WSO in thier own cockpits versus a shared canopy, shared cockpit. Hammer and nail approach. 

 

I wasnt clear. My point was that trying to mimic these finer points such as very small indentations along the skin due to spot welding is that you loose a lot of that detail youre trying to reproduce or it just doesnt look right. Reproducing that in 1/72 is neglible and seems to me irrelevant to my Braille scale model I'm going to start on this weekend. I like Zvezda kits and this rivet bickering reminds me of the gripe about Kitty Hawks negative rivets. 

 

Rivet hell

 

 Rivets-768x512.jpeg.7df82506476e2926be4adaecabd11951.jpeg

Edited by snake36bravo
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