Solo Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 Meanwhile there is build in progres on FB of F-16C. As you can see, that model looks just like Tamiya. Almost the same I do believe. According to author, Rene van der Hart "putty hardly used". But frankly said I am not so sure about shape of forward part of fuselage. Anyway, if it is true, and the quality of kit is similar to Tamiya, byt the kit is much more expensive than Tamiya, so I do not see any sense to buy it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raymond Chung Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 (edited) 24 minutes ago, Solo said: Meanwhile there is build in progres on FB of F-16C. As you can see, that model looks just like Tamiya. Almost the same I do believe. According to author, Rene van der Hart "putty hardly used". But frankly said I am not so sure about shape of forward part of fuselage. Anyway, if it is true, and the quality of kit is similar to Tamiya, byt the kit is much more expensive than Tamiya, so I do not see any sense to buy it. Under your concern no other model brand will survive ? and you will notice the difference when you build it. for the U.K. price it is 10p more than tamiya one. And this kit is Block 70/72 ready. Not to mention the decal difference. but in US market we are 10 USD cheaper than others. We receive such comment before when we release F-104, that no one look good we can compete with others, after all these years, we proof we have our own market as well. Edited December 16, 2022 by Raymond Chung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 (edited) Raymond, I wish you well and I hope you will sell as much those kits as possbile. But if you offer me the kit with similar quality to Tamiya's one but more expensive, so which one should I buy? You are talking about US market, but I am not living in USA. As far as I know, in my country your kit will be much more expensive then old but still excellnet Tamiya kit. Tamiya F-16 is just a perfect kit of F-16 model in 1:48. Your kit, according to many modelleres who own it and build it, is good, but not as perfect as Tamiya. There are still some minor issues. So the choice is rather simple for me. Of course we are talking only about C version of F-16. Regarding A and MLU your kit is probably the best on the market. If you release B/D, that will be another part of that story, because many modellers wants to build that version of F-16. But when we are talking about F-16C (older Blocks), for me the Tamiya is still the king. Edited December 16, 2022 by Solo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raymond Chung Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Solo said: Raymond, I wish you well and I hope you will sell as much those kits as possbile. But if you offer me the kit with similar quality to Tamiya's one but more expensive, so which one should I buy? You are talking about US market, but I am not living in USA. As far as I know, in my country your kit will be much more expensive then old but still excellnet Tamiya kit. Tamiya F-16 is just a perfect kit of F-16 model in 1:48. Your kit, according to many modelleres who own it and build it, is good, but not as perfect as Tamiya. There are still some minor issues. So the choice is rather simple for me. Of course we are talking only about C version of F-16. Regarding A and MLU your kit is probably the best on the market. If you release B/D, that will be another part of that story, because many modellers wants to build that version of F-16. But when we are talking about F-16C (older Blocks), for me the Tamiya is still the king. Tamiya kit also has it issue, but no one will put the same level of comparison as they are tamiya. (Like tamiya does not offer reinforcement plate and no one complain that, for kinetic they bash us why we don’t include it) the panel on the big T f-16 is valid up to block 40 not 50, anyone point out ? tamiya MLG design would require lot of masking and easily to break it. You point lead to a question why a new F-16 kit is required? It is an honour to take Kinetic vs Tamiya, The F-16 market is big enough to accommodate multiple kit provider to survive and the F-16 lovers will buy any maker produced. Just as if F-4. so different product has its pro and cons and let the customer to buy. I am sure you will find something better than the Big T F-16 (as we address the issue eg the MLG installation) when you experience with it. Listen to reviewer is one point your actual experience is another matter. we never said we will deliver “ultimate F-16 in the world”, and we just offer another option for the market. if you ask me what option we do offer and Big T F-16 does not, I can put in the following list: 1. improved MLG/NLG bay 2. improved MLG/NLG installation design with door 3. block 70/72 cockpit 4. Option for non USAF F-16 parts 5. more weapon option 6. radar option (APG-63/83) I can think of these so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 That is really good Raymond. Yes, now I see there is a lot more advantages over Tamiya's kit, that is true. BTW, do you know if resin aftermarkets for old Kientic F-16 (like Aires) should be suitable for new kit? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Silver Seraph Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Solo said: byt the kit is much more expensive than Tamiya, so I do not see any sense to buy it. Why not something in the lines of... supporting a manufacturer? Of course it is personal but here in Switzerland, the Kinetic F-16 is basically USD20 more expensive than Tamiya's. Will I buy it? Absolutely, because I want to support Kinetic whose progression in moulding quality and recessed detail finesse improved immensely in the past 6-7 years IMHO. I will also admit being a big fan purchasing the same subject released from different manufacturers. Of course it is still a F-16 but the differences in tooling is still something interesting to study when you have all 2-3 or 4 kits side by side. Mine should be delivered next week, very happy with this new release from Kinetic. Thank you Raymond for your involvement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raymond Chung Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 1 hour ago, Solo said: That is really good Raymond. Yes, now I see there is a lot more advantages over Tamiya's kit, that is true. BTW, do you know if resin aftermarkets for old Kientic F-16 (like Aires) should be suitable for new kit? The cockpit does not. the reason is the 1st gen F-16 does not follow the systematic development. The shape of the nose is not correct. The shape from the nose to the cockpit has some differences. The new F-16 is using the GD (now Lockheed) loft lines to regenerate the curve. So the shape on the front section is different. The nozzle part may be reusable. for cockpit if you don’t mind to some dry fit and sanding you can reuse those resin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 Thank you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Craig Baldwin Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 I think I see ADF tail parts in the instructions, should I get my hopes up? This does look good. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Niels Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 2 hours ago, Craig Baldwin said: I think I see ADF tail parts in the instructions, should I get my hopes up? This does look good. You get the buldged tail base, fit for making a Portugeese F-16A, either pre- or post MLU update. If you're looking to build a USAF/ANG ADF, then you need the antennas to go in front of the cockpit and below the air intake. You can steele these from one of Kinetic's old-school F-16's if you have it, or scratch build it. Your choice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Roof Posted December 16, 2022 Share Posted December 16, 2022 9 hours ago, Raymond Chung said: Tamiya kit also has it issue, but no one will put the same level of comparison as they are tamiya. (Like tamiya does not offer reinforcement plate and no one complain that, for kinetic they bash us why we don’t include it) the panel on the big T f-16 is valid up to block 40 not 50, anyone point out ? There is actually a pretty simple explanation for this. The first boxing, which was the CJ, covered an airframe that didn't have the plates. If I'm not mistaken, the PE detail up parts that included the plates was released shortly after the Block 25/32 boxing. So, while they weren't in the box, they were readily available for the kit from Tamiya. These were in addition to the several other aftermarket sets that were out at the time. They were also for modelers that wanted to model Block 40 aircraft, which mostly had the plates around the time the kits were released. The Kinetic kit was boxed as an MLU, and from what I gather, the plates were a standard feature on most of those airframes. Modelers made the assumption the required parts to build most MLU aircraft would be in the box. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Dave Roof said: The Kinetic kit was boxed as an MLU, and from what I gather, the plates were a standard feature on most of those airframes. Modelers made the assumption the required parts to build most MLU aircraft would be in the box. Valid point. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raymond Chung Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 3 hours ago, Dave Roof said: There is actually a pretty simple explanation for this. The first boxing, which was the CJ, covered an airframe that didn't have the plates. If I'm not mistaken, the PE detail up parts that included the plates was released shortly after the Block 25/32 boxing. So, while they weren't in the box, they were readily available for the kit from Tamiya. These were in addition to the several other aftermarket sets that were out at the time. They were also for modelers that wanted to model Block 40 aircraft, which mostly had the plates around the time the kits were released. The Kinetic kit was boxed as an MLU, and from what I gather, the plates were a standard feature on most of those airframes. Modelers made the assumption the required parts to build most MLU aircraft would be in the box. Ok that means when we release the accessories for it then everyone accept it ? Or they still it should be included in the kit ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 Just my opinion: if the kit was released as a basic Block 15 F-16A, and not an F-16AM (MLU), most if not all of this would be a non-issue. There doesn't seem to be anything "wrong" with the kit, just the expectations raised by labeling it as an MLU jet. And yes, I think releasing an "accessory kit" would be a smart marketing move. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jenshb Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 5 hours ago, Raymond Chung said: Ok that means when we release the accessories for it then everyone accept it ? Or they still it should be included in the kit ? Personally, I would expect the plates to be included in a £70 kit... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raymond Chung Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 2 hours ago, jenshb said: Personally, I would expect the plates to be included in a £70 kit... We are planning a set with PE pilot tube and magnet set Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Niels Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 18 hours ago, Dave Roof said: The Kinetic kit was boxed as an MLU, and from what I gather, the plates were a standard feature on most of those airframes. Modelers made the assumption the required parts to build most MLU aircraft would be in the box. Not quite correct. RNoAF MLU jets did not get the strengtheners until 3-4 years after their MLU conversion, and that was only the first jets. Other users had the same approach, as the strengtheners were there to first and foremost secure the structural integrity of the Block 40/42 series. Block 50/52 had them built in, hence the bulges on the fuselage. Later, block 25/30/32 got some of the strengtheners but not all. Reason was that the fuselage was built differently than the block 40/42's. Israely F-16A/B's have only half the strengtheners that the block 40/42 and subsequent late model MLU. Belgian F-16's were some of the last MLU jets to get them. Why? Differences in how the jets were manufactured. This whole discussion has gone completely out of proportions, and in case anyone wonder - most of the aftermarket strengtheners are either adaptable to any kit or released in kit-specific versions. Provided that the dimensions of the Tamiya and Kinetic are comparable, the strengtheners made for Tamiya, whether PE or adhesive, should fit either kit with little or no fuss. There will surely soon enough be Kinetic specific plates available aswell. To expect a kit manufacturer to include these are stretching it to be polite. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Solo Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Niels said: Block 50/52 had them built in, hence the bulges on the fuselage Where are those bulges on surface of Block 52? Edited December 17, 2022 by Solo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longmc Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 Ok, I have the MLU boxing on order. From what is in that box, what can a modeler expect to be able to build? I have cross delta plates for the fuselage. thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Roof Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 2 minutes ago, longmc said: Ok, I have the MLU boxing on order. From what is in that box, what can a modeler expect to be able to build? I have cross delta plates for the fuselage. thanks! You can build an F-16A or an F-16C. Both the MLU and C boxings have the exact same plastic in them. The only difference between the two kits are the instructions and decals. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longmc Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 Understood. What I’m asking is, with what’s in the box, what can be built? Only a blk 20 A or C? For someone deciding if they should get this kit, what can reasonably be built from what’s in the box (A, ADF, some version of an MLU) ? thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stephen Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 1 hour ago, longmc said: Understood. What I’m asking is, with what’s in the box, what can be built? Only a blk 20 A or C? For someone deciding if they should get this kit, what can reasonably be built from what’s in the box (A, ADF, some version of an MLU) ? thanks! From what's in the box, bearing in mind that the plastic in both is identical and that some options will require strengthening plates the subject of which has been frankly flogged to death here you can build the following; F-16A Block 15 F-16A Block 20 Taiwan. F-16AM MLU. For an F-16ADF there are bulges tail parts but you would need to replace the IFF parts, the AIM-7 Sparrow pylons are included in the Kinetic F/A-18C. F-16C Block 25 F-16C Block 32 F-16C Block 42 F-16C Block 52 There are tail extension parts and fairings included which mean that export versions are a possibility. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Niels Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 2 hours ago, Solo said: Where are those bulges on surface of Block 52? There's 4 on the topside and 4 on the bottom side. They are more prominent on Kinetic's kit compared to Tamiya. You see them mid-fuselage on this pic; kin_48102_parts1.jpg (1800×988) (cybermodeler.com) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted December 17, 2022 Share Posted December 17, 2022 I think what some see as a missing feature, I see as a godsend, I can't imagine the pain in the rear to scrape off unneeded strengthening plates. I suggest you buy or make your own plates and chill, no plates molded on is a great feature! this is modeling, not shake the box and a finished kit pops out, do more modeling less whining Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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