F-104G USAF Exhaust

[Mustang381]

Hello my friends

Does anybody knows from this photo,which exhaust have this F-104G while it was in service in USAF?

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Mustang381

[TheGloriousTachikoma]

The photo is grainy but it looks to me like a -17 nozzle. 

[Nebbor]

http://www.916-starfighter.de/F-104_Engine system J-79_Stoelinga.pdf , last page.

J79GE-11A was standard for F-104G

[Dave Williams]

While it’s true that German F-104Gs started with the -11A engine, most were upgraded in the 70’s to the J79-MTU-J1K engine, which had an exhaust similar to the F-104S.  However, given this aircraft’s history (crashing in February 1970), it was likely never upgraded.

 

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Luke/63-13246.htm

 

[Mustang381]

Ok, thanks my brothers.Also what I have noticed that ejection seat in all USAF F-104G was not the same on all aircrafts,from the same period.

On that photo for which I plan to make model kit is seat C-2,it is clearly visible.Is there any connection durring modifications with instalation of new engine,that they put also new ejection seat?

P.S. Just short recapitulation, you are all 100% sure that I can instal this exhaust on representation of model kit of this exact aircraft which I have shown in photo:

https://reskit-models.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=2855&search=F-104+1%2F48

[Nebbor]

The aircraft you are modelling is in fact a German AF Starfighter.  These were based at Luke AFB and had US markings. Eventually these jets got the MB Q7 seat, as all remaining German F-104 did. Since you are modelling the exact aircraft in the picture the discussion if it had an upgraded seat is not relevant since it clearly has the C2 seat. 

 

Some more info about F-104 seats:

http://www.ejectionsite.com/f104seat.htm

https://www.i-f-s.nl/ejection-seats/

 

Regarding exhaust:

the depicted aircraft crashed february 1970 and as stated by Dave Williams was unlikely to be upgraded since that program just started in 1970 and they upgraded home based aircraft first.

For details about F-104's and differences between the J79-11A and J79-MTU-J1K and or J79-19 I recommend this book:

https://www.dacoproducts.com/KDCB005.php

 

[Mustang381]

Thank you very much.This helps a lot.So I will use this J79-11A exhaust to make this specific aircraft from the photo.

[Mustang381]

5 hours ago, Dave Williams said:

While it’s true that German F-104Gs started with the -11A engine, most were upgraded in the 70’s to the J79-MTU-J1K engine, which had an exhaust similar to the F-104S.  However, given this aircraft’s history (crashing in February 1970), it was likely never upgraded.

 

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Luke/63-13246.htm

 

Thanks a lot,this solves the mistery completly.

[Rob de Bie]

This a/c does not have the red rotating beacon on the top of the rear fuselage, that I remember from Lw 104s. Probably this was a later modification?

Rob

[Dave Williams]

Think the red beacons were a later mod.  Regarding seats, German F-104s originally came with the Lockheed C-2 seat.  Like the engine, they were upgraded over time in service to the MB seat.  Aircraft based in Germany would be first in line for mods/upgrades, while US based aircraft would have been last, if they were upgraded at all.

[Mustang381]

Thanks my friends,this helps a lot to make more realistic presentation of model kit.

[Mustang381]

What makes questions more,about this specific aircraft from the photo is,did it have bulged wheels cover,and how looked like paint of pitot tube,because on this photo it have cover over it? 

[Dave Williams]

Supposedly, F-104Gs built before 1964 had the flat MLG doors and narrow wheels.  Beginning in 1964, production shifted to the bigger wheels, and a retrofit program was started in 1965 to update the earlier German F-104s.

 

https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/76671-german-f-104-starfighters-parked-in-formation/&do=findComment&comment=1073385

 

That photo was taken in December 1969, so maybe.  I don’t think it’s easy to tell from that old photo.  Unless you can find the schedule of the TO that upgraded the gear, and find out when (or if) that TO was ever applied to this aircraft, I’m not sure you’ll ever know for sure.

 

 

[Nebbor]

I understand the bulged doors are a consequence of the wider wheels used. When true: the photo shows the late styl e wide wheel rims so it should have the bulged doors.

 

Early narrow wheels

 

Late wide wheels

 

Link to a larger image of your OP showing the late wheels:

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Luke/63-13246.htm

 

I think I can just make out some pointy bits at the end of the exhaust so it should be a J79-11A but hard to tell with 100% guarantee.

 

early exhaust:

 

late exhaust

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Nebbor

[Nebbor]

4 hours ago, Dave Williams said:

Supposedly, F-104Gs built before 1964 had the flat MLG doors and narrow wheels.  Beginning in 1964, production shifted to the bigger wheels, and a retrofit program was started in 1965 to update the earlier German F-104s.

 

https://forum.largescaleplanes.com/index.php?/topic/76671-german-f-104-starfighters-parked-in-formation/&do=findComment&comment=1073385

 

That photo was taken in December 1969, so maybe.  I don’t think it’s easy to tell from that old photo.  Unless you can find the schedule of the TO that upgraded the gear, and find out when (or if) that TO was ever applied to this aircraft, I’m not sure you’ll ever know for sure.

 

 

Nice info to be found in that thread, thanks for posting.

[Nebbor]

 

8 hours ago, Mustang381 said:

What makes questions more,about this specific aircraft from the photo is,did it have bulged wheels cover,and how looked like paint of pitot tube,because on this photo it have cover over it? 

 

No idea about pitot color unless you can find an actual image of that aircraft without pitot cover. I have seen it painted in the colours of the German flag but most likely it was just OD or grey with natural metal tip, maybe even completely unpainted. Best bet would be to fabricate a cover since they were almost always on parked aircraft. A rare example without:

 

More images:

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/military-unit/58 TFTW xSx 69 TFTS

[Mustang381]

Ok, on photo of the aircraft that I have post  ,for the fruther talk lets use therm "my F-104",it is clearly visible that he have late type wheel hubs,ok,so logic says that wheels are late type.

 Next question is:

 Is there a specific rule that obligate late type wheels with bulged MLG doors or there was also cases where late wheels were packed in early type,smooth MLG doors?Is is fisicly posible that late wheels be stored in early MLG bay.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Mustang381

[Mustang381]

1 hour ago, Nebbor said:

I understand the bulged doors are a consequence of the wider wheels used. When true: the photo shows the late styl e wide wheel rims so it should have the bulged doors.

 

Early narrow wheels

 

Late wide wheels

 

Link to a larger image of your OP showing the late wheels:

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Luke/63-13246.htm

 

I think I can just make out some pointy bits at the end of the exhaust so it should be a J79-11A but hard to tell with 100% guarantee.

 

early exhaust:

 

late exhaust

 

Thank you my friend.

Since Mr.Williams have given proof when new type of engine was instaled,there is no chance that it was on "my F-104".

[Nebbor]

57 minutes ago, Mustang381 said:

Ok, on photo of the aircraft that I have post  ,for the fruther talk lets use therm "my F-104",it is clearly visible that he have late type wheel hubs,ok,so logic says that wheels are late type.

 Next question is:

 Is there a specific rule that obligate late type wheels with bulged MLG doors or there was also cases where late wheels were packed in early type,smooth MLG doors?Is is fisicly posible that late wheels be stored in early MLG bay.

No

[Mustang381]

36 minutes ago, Nebbor said:

No

Thank you my friend.

[Dave Williams]

7 hours ago, Nebbor said:

I understand the bulged doors are a consequence of the wider wheels used. When true: the photo shows the late styl e wide wheel rims so it should have the bulged doors.

 

Early narrow wheels

 

Late wide wheels

 

Link to a larger image of your OP showing the late wheels:

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Luke/63-13246.htm

 

 

 

Those renders of the “early”and “late” wheels are from Eduard’s sets, and aren’t really correct.  The “early” wheel they show is actually a A/B/C/D wheel as identified by the dished hub, not a F-104G wheel.  All F-104G MLG hubs were spoked, whether the actual tire was wide or narrow.  Just seeing a spoked wheel hub doesn’t mean the tires are wide.  F-104Js and CF-104s all have the same spoked hub, and they never had wide wheels.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Dave Williams

[Nebbor]

20 minutes ago, Dave Williams said:

Those renders of the “early”and “late” wheels are from Eduard’s sets, and aren’t really correct.  The “early” wheel they show is actually a A/B/C/D wheel as identified by the dished hub, not a F-104G wheel.  All F-104G MLG hubs were spoked, whether the actual tire was wide or narrow.  Just seeing a spoked wheel hub doesn’t mean the tires are wide.  F-104Js and CF-104s all have the same spoked hub, and they never had wide wheels.

 

My mention of early wheel was not for early G but A, B, C and D models. Never knew the same spoked design was used for both narrow and wide wheels. So you can't tell by the rim used if wide tyres were fitted, learned something.

 

[Mustang381]

Ok,back to start ehehehehehhe

[Mustang381]

So its practicly imposible to describe modeling configuration for this aircraft about wheels and mlg doors.Is there any info how they looked in these period from 1967 till 1969, then use that as a most plausable reference point.

[Mustang381]

Let me reconstruct point of view and main question for this "my F-104".

So from the research that we have until now,one can make conclusion that this is airframe directly from production line,and that it is most early G variant, ie: without any major airframe modifications and upgrades.

So, what kind of wheel had early variant and MLG doors?

As it is written on the link that Mr.Williams have given, this airframe was modified on april 29th 1963. to latest modification...Acording to the project "Columbus" ,does that meen that he got bulged wheel doors and wide tyres,but keeped spoked hub,also keeped early seat and engine?

Edited July 30, 2022 by Mustang381