P-51D-5 Main Wheel Well

[Curt B]

Hi All,

 

I thought I'd post a few photos of my just begun 1/48 Eduard P-51D-5 Mustang "Frenesi".  This is my third attempt at an Eduard Mustang, the first 2 efforts not being successful due to various issues (the first one had some assembly problems, plus it took way too much paint on the yellow empennage due to the primer being too dark, and the second one had a very compromised metal finish due to a poorly applied clear coat).  Hoping this one will be a better experience, firstly because "Frenesi" was painted dark green/olive drab over neutral grey or medium gray, with very limited exposed natural metal, plus I've learned a great deal about the assembly of this kit.  I'm hoping my experience with natural metal painting will allow me to do a good job on my forthcoming build of the natural metal P-38J, Robin Olds' Scat II with full D-Day Invasion Stripes, using the new 1/48 Tamiya kit.

 

I've wrestled with the main wheel well painting/colors for P-51s, and this time, I tried something different, but matching some of the images of actual P-51D planes that I've seen.  However, to this point, I haven't seen other models with wheel wells like this, and it took some very careful masking using Aizu Micron Masking tape of various widths over AK Xtreme Metal Polished Aluminum, then sprayed with Mr. Color lacquer C352 Yellow Zinc Chromate.  I haven't done any weathering yet, but I'm pretty happy with the way it looks to this point.  Of course, you could do this using something other than Aizu masking tape, by careful cutting/trimming of other masking tape, but the Aizu products made it much easier.

 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Curt B

[peter havriluk]

WOW!!

[Curt B]

7 hours ago, peter havriluk said:

WOW!!

Thanks 😀   This isn't done yet.  I've added some details in paint to the 6 pipes/conduits you can see at the top of the third image (a separate part in the Eduard P-51D kits), and I've also subsequently painted some of the raised detail on the center wall between the left and right wells (which can barely be seen, unpainted, in the photos).  I've also done some additions using solder and small cabling to the prior P-51D disasters, and I plan to do the same to this one before I'm done.  The wheel wells in the real P-51Ds were incredibly complex, with a monstrous rat's nest of pipes, conduit and cables, and I want to try to give at least a sense of that when it's done.  Not that Eduard did a bad job out of the box...from what I've seen of other 1/48 P-51D kits prior to Eduard, they did a great job!

[timc]

This is relatively accurate for the aircraft you've depicted.  Later blocks (20, 25) had more standardized yellow zinc throughout the wheel wells.  Having said that, there's absolutely no evidence that the earlier ones weren't painted entirely and/or a hodgepodge of painted/unpainted but the likelyhood of having them fully painted was far lower than not. I guess the paint all depended upon the painter's mood at that time of day during the production process.

Edited October 4, 2022 by timc

[barkin mad]

I like the look of those, how do you go about the tail wheel well, same deal - structures in ZCY & metal plating in silv or is it overall ZCY?

 

20 hours ago, timc said:

This is relatively accurate for the aircraft you've depicted.  Later blocks (20, 25) had more standardized yellow zinc throughout the wheel wells.

 

This may be so when they left the factory but afaik RAF a/c were painted silver in wheel wells after delivery.

 

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[timc]

2 hours ago, barkin mad said:

I like the look of those, how do you go about the tail wheel well, same deal - structures in ZCY & metal plating in silv or is it overall ZCY?

 

 

This may be so when they left the factory but afaik RAF a/c were painted silver in wheel wells after delivery.

 

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This is interesting.  Where did you find that piece of information?

[barkin mad]

Over on Britmodeller. That said it's probably for UK based a/c. I'm not sure about those that were shipped directly from the factory to overseas locations without transiting the UK.

 

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[timc]

First - Do you have a link? There's too much garbage to sift through going in unaided. 

Second - Does this topic/thread provide substantive proof (documents/photographs) to support that conclusion?  If not, I wouldn't put any stock into that statement whatsoever.

[peter havriluk]

What I'm seeing is a wing built up of a zinc-chromate-primed spar structure which was skinned with bare aluminum sheet.    Spars were assembled, primed, put in a jig and skinned. 

[Curt B]

I've seen evidence that the tail wheel well color is pretty much irrelevant, since it appears that a canvas cover was present.  At least that's how I'm planning to do the P-51D that I'm working on.

On 10/4/2022 at 8:06 AM, timc said:

This is relatively accurate for the aircraft you've depicted.  Later blocks (20, 25) had more standardized yellow zinc throughout the wheel wells.  Having said that, there's absolutely no evidence that the earlier ones weren't painted entirely and/or a hodgepodge of painted/unpainted but the likelyhood of having them fully painted was far lower than not. I guess the paint all depended upon the painter's mood at that time of day during the production process.

With respect to my initial post and the mixture of zinc chromate and aluminum, I've seen pictures of P-51s with all silver (aluminum) wells, all zinc chromate wells, and wells like the one I'm doing, and in some cases, mixtures of the two colors that are even less 'consistent' than my wheel well. t would be great if color photos of each WWII P-51D plane existed along with every paint scheme.  It seems to me that given the limited evidence of wheel well colors on a 'per airplane', I think one can pretty much use any of the various wheel well color schemes.  I can't say that I've ever seen a color photo of the actual WWII Frenesi wheel wells (not a restored P-51D painted like Frenesi...it appears that the underwing color scheme for Frenesi in the Eduard instructions is inaccurate, since the bottom of the wings in the instructions show the full set of black and white D Day Invasion stripes present  whereas the real plane had only had a single with stripe (like the top of the wings...so who really knows the wheel well colors).

[peter havriluk]

Curt, I think you're on the right track.  There was a war on, and these machines were expendable tools which got all the maintenance they needed to get the job done.  

 

About the wheel wells with zinc chromate support structure and unpainted skin, I think there was no way on this green earth that somebody was going to mask off the underside of the skin and paint the stringers and ribs and leave the inside of the skin bare metal.  But a replacement skin would not be primed before installation unless there was time for that additional step.  Rivet on a sheet cut to fit and blow some paint on the outside.  Done.  Get that one back in service. 

[timc]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:44 AM, barkin mad said:

I like the look of those, how do you go about the tail wheel well, same deal - structures in ZCY & metal plating in silv or is it overall ZCY?

 

 

This may be so when they left the factory but afaik RAF a/c were painted silver in wheel wells after delivery.

 

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After looking through my references, I found this very topic and indeed, all the King's Mustangs (Mk's I-III [no mention of the IV]) had wheel wells in aluminum, aluminized lacquer or dopes (O'Leary, p. 46).

 

Quote

Curt, I think you're on the right track.  There was a war on, and these machines were expendable tools which got all the maintenance they needed to get the job done.  

 

About the wheel wells with zinc chromate support structure and unpainted skin, I think there was no way on this green earth that somebody was going to mask off the underside of the skin and paint the stringers and ribs and leave the inside of the skin bare metal.  But a replacement skin would not be primed before installation unless there was time for that additional step.  Rivet on a sheet cut to fit and blow some paint on the outside.  Done.  Get that one back in service. 

 

Well, you're entirely in the wrong tree on that.  I think a little aircraft manufacturing lesson is what's needed here.  The process of aircraft airframe manufacturing goes something like this:  raw aluminum (alclad type O - soft aluminum), is created into the various shapes needed for stringers, formers, bulkheads, etc.  After forming, these parts are heat treated to the desired specification (usually T3 or T6) then cleaned and primed according to the specifications (usually two coats of untinted zince chromate primer (back then). After an inspection, they are sent to the warehouse awaiting delivery to the production line.  Once on the production line, the parts are placed in various jigs and assembled prior to the skins being installed.  The skins are some of the last things to be riveted to the wings.  NAA specifications called for bare skins against the structure, no primer.  That is how the wheel wells end up having primed structural members (including the main spar) and bare metal skins.  I'm sure there's plenty of You Tube videos on the subject....  Later on, the wheel wells were shot with yellow zinc in their entirety after the wing was assembled.  I spent several years on an aircraft production line and this is basically how it works.

 

Toward my original post, here's a couple of P-51D production line photos of main wheel wells:  First early and second later (P-51D-20); notice the early wheel well is bare aluminum with primed structural members (O'Learly pp 148, 174). Having said that, there's no way lacking any photographic evidence that any given P-51 had painted or unpainted wheel wells.  Production trumped finish so whatever was available was used to produce...if one wing had bare skin and the other was painted then that P-51D would have mismatched wheel wells...not a big deal. The later the production block, the better the chances that it would have had both wheel wells painted (untinted zinc).

 

 

 

REFERENCE:

 

O'Leary, M. (2010), Building the p-51 mustang, the story of manufacturing north american's legendary world war II fighter in original photos, Specialty Press, MN (pp. 46, 148, 174)

 

Edited October 8, 2022 by timc

[Slartibartfast]

Regarding wing stripe, the P-51, like the Jug, had a single longitudinal white recognition stripe on each wing and horizontal stab when in the ETO.  Three stripes above, below and on fuselage, appeared June 5, 1944 and eventually disappeared in October 1944.

[Curt B]

Peter and tImc, thanks for the additional comments, and timc, for the photos.  At this point, I'm leaving my mixed ZCY and bare aluminum wheel wells as in my first post photos.  I've now added some weathering and included some conduit and pipes using solde, more as a 'suggestion' of details, rather than an attempt at a full, complete set of details.  

 

Slartibartfast, you know, your point about the regular non-D Day single stripe underwing marking, and then the updated full D-Day black and white stripes, makes a lot of sense.  Of course I know that the stripes were, in some cases, added and removed quite soon (regarding removal) after D-Day.  So it's possible that Frenesi may, indeed, have had the full stripe treatment, if only for a few days.  I don't think I'll do the full stripes on top of the wings, though, even if I decide to do the full underwing set of stripes.  It's all so confusing, given how quickly things changed during that time.  

[Slartibartfast]

Single white theater stripes until June 5, 1944.  For Overlord, 18" stripes upper wing surface, lower wing surface and encircling rear fuselage.  Some time in July 1944, units were allowed to remove upper wing stripes and those on the upper part of the fuselage.  Post-August 1944, stripes were allowed to be removed completely.  This applies to single-engine aircraft. P-38 and multi-engines bomber/utility aircraft had somewhat different specs.

Edited October 22, 2022 by Slartibartfast

[Curt B]

On 10/22/2022 at 1:43 PM, Slartibartfast said:

Single white theater stripes until June 5, 1944.  For Overlord, 18" stripes upper wing surface, lower wing surface and encircling rear fuselage.  Some time in July 1944, units were allowed to remove upper wing stripes and those on the upper part of the fuselage.  Post-August 1944, stripes were allowed to be removed completely.  This applies to single-engine aircraft. P-38 and multi-engines bomber/utility aircraft had somewhat different specs.

Even better then, a full set of Invasion Stripes for my Frenesi!  I plan to have every aircraft type, if not every variant of every type, that had Invasions stripes on D Day, on display in my model display spaces.  I know that's a lot of planes, and a lot of stripes, but it will be historically accurate, and cool as heck!