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1 hour ago, Murph said:

Some of the individuals flying these "warbirds" have no business being in a cockpit.  Way more money and ego than brains.

 

Regards,

Murph


Agree, so many human factors in these videos. Why was the P-63 entering the airspace at such a high rate of speed and why was he banking and not keeping the slower moving B-17 in view, a total loss of situational awareness.

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I went to this show last year, I passed on going this year to go to a car show.  Paying passengers are flown in the morning, not in the afternoon show, so five souls on the B-17 crew and the P-63 pilot, all presumed dead.

 

Not to speculate, but I videoed this exact routine last year. At the time of the accident the B-17 was flying straight and level, parallel and adjacent to the runway. The P-63 was "joining up" to fly formation on the B-17.  The P-63 impacted the fuselage of the B-17 just aft of the wing, severing the tail section.  For the life of me I can't understand how the P-63 pilot hit the B-17, the sun was at his back and, in the turn, the B-17 should have been in clear unobstructed view. 

 

Just a real tragedy all around.  ☹️

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I live maybe 6 or 7 miles from Executive Airport, formerly known as Redbird Airport. CAF just relocated their headquarters there a couple of years ago. 

 

My brother is a pilot, flying for American. He just texted me, two of the B-17 crew were retired AA pilots.  ☹️

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12 hours ago, habu2 said:

 

 

Not to speculate, but I videoed this exact routine last year. At the time of the accident the B-17 was flying straight and level, parallel and adjacent to the runway. The P-63 was "joining up" to fly formation on the B-17.  The P-63 impacted the fuselage of the B-17 just aft of the wing, severing the tail section.  For the life of me I can't understand how the P-63 pilot hit the B-17, the sun was at his back and, in the turn, the B-17 should have been in clear unobstructed view. 

 

A longer clip of the incident shows at least one aircraft, probably P-51, flying in front of the B-17. I believe the P-63 was trying to catch up with the P-51, and in doing so, the pilot's eyes were glued to the Mustang in the distance. The P-63 was also in a left bank meaning the B-17 was in the blind spot. I firmly believe this was not an attempt to join up. The poor P-63 pilot wasn't aware of the B-17's position until he hit it mid-ship.

 

Try this video to see how much bank that P-63 was in: Boeing B-17 and Bell P-63 Kingcobra planes collided at Dallas airshow and crashed - YouTube

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In the initial video I saw shortly after the accident it looked like the P-63 flight path was perpendicular to the B-17 at impact, I can see from the other angles he was nowhere near perpendicular and the B-17 was was "under" him in a blind spot.  During that part of the show, called "Bombers On Parade", the heavies fly a large CCW racetrack pattern and the fighters stay in a smaller CCW track over the airfield simulating air cover for the bombers.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Raiders

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Dallas_airshow_mid-air_collision

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18 hours ago, Murph said:

Some of the individuals flying these "warbirds" have no business being in a cockpit.  Way more money and ego than brains.

 

Regards,

Murph

Data on the Pilots hasn't been released, and your insinuating they were nothing more then frat boys with money?

 

CAF has a pretty strict upgrade program for CAF owned aircraft (I believe these birds were owned by the Houston Chapter) so saying it's an ego issue really is out of line.

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18 hours ago, Murph said:

Some of the individuals flying these "warbirds" have no business being in a cockpit.  Way more money and ego than brains.

 

Regards,

Murph

 

Are you talking about Bud Holland?

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Turns out the NTSB has their own YouTube channel and just a little bit ago they posted a press briefing,

 

Quote

57 minutes ago NTSB Board Member Michael Graham briefs media on the 11/12/2022 mid-air collision between a Boeing B-17G and a Bell P-63F, at the Dallas Executive Airport Terminal.


https://youtu.be/vxzMuG4iEUE

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On 11/12/2022 at 4:52 PM, Murph said:

Some of the individuals flying these "warbirds" have no business being in a cockpit.  Way more money and ego than brains.

 

Regards,

Murph

Sorry, but this is an extremely judgmental and VERY ignorant statement. These "individuals" are trained pilots with tons of hours. How about you keep the armchair piloting to yourself.

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Coincidentally, I ran across this paragraph last night and thought of this discussion:

 

"Whenever we talk about a pilot who has been killed in a flying accident, we should all keep one thing in mind.  He called upon the sum of all his knowledge and made a judgment.  He believed in it so strongly that he bet his life on it.  That his judgment was faulty is a tragedy, not stupidity.  Every instructor, supervisor, and contemporary who ever spoke to him had an opportunity to influence his judgment, so a little bit of all of us goes with every pilot we lose.  - Unknown (From We Were Crewdogs Vol II, 2006).

 

Chris

Edited by Gator52
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8 hours ago, niart17 said:

Sorry, but this is an extremely judgmental and VERY ignorant statement. These "individuals" are trained pilots with tons of hours. How about you keep the armchair piloting to yourself.


Murph has thousands of hours flying fast jets, including the F-15. He isn’t an armchair pilot. And given the number of videos of this incident, there are some very obvious errors. These powerful tools (video/images) will be used in the investigation.

 

I was a human factors in military aviation facilitator for the last eight years of my time in service. We had a CF-18 crash at an airshow practice and there was a lot of video/images of the incident. We knew immediately what to look at based on this material.

 

I’ll say one thing about this incident, it was preventable. Too many accidents have been occurring in the warbird community, far too many. Existing flight safety programs exist, it is time for these mechanisms to be put in force.

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11 hours ago, Scooby said:


Murph has thousands of hours flying fast jets, including the F-15. He isn’t an armchair pilot. And given the number of videos of this incident, there are some very obvious errors. These powerful tools (video/images) will be used in the investigation.

 

His hours of service flying fast jets is very much appreciated and I respect his experience. But that fact also makes his statement all the more disappointing. Unless he was there in the situation, I feel most pilots would rather hold out posting such an opinion on a public forum before any facts are known and not knowingly or unwittingly tarnish the names of others in the profession. It's one to thing to make a general supposition such as "It appears this may be a pilot error from what's seen so far" Or "Perhaps X, Y, Z didn't happen...." etc. But to make a blanket statement such as it's just some rich "egos" with no brains is uncalled for in my opinion. But of course he's free to make whatever judgement he feels is appropriate. I know I've made mine about his statement and stand by it.

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54 minutes ago, niart17 said:

His hours of service flying fast jets is very much appreciated and I respect his experience. But that fact also makes his statement all the more disappointing. Unless he was there in the situation, I feel most pilots would rather hold out posting such an opinion on a public forum before any facts are known and not knowingly or unwittingly tarnish the names of others in the profession. It's one to thing to make a general supposition such as "It appears this may be a pilot error from what's seen so far" Or "Perhaps X, Y, Z didn't happen...." etc. But to make a blanket statement such as it's just some rich "egos" with no brains is uncalled for in my opinion. But of course he's free to make whatever judgement he feels is appropriate. I know I've made mine about his statement and stand by it.


The warbird community has lost an extraordinary number of aircraft the last five or six years. A higher rate than the military, airlines, and general aviation. Something is seriously wrong in this community, including oversight by the regulators.

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There's an important distinction to be made here - there are a lot of Very Well To Do people who own and fly "warbirds", a well known example would be Tom Cruise and his P-51 (actually an F-6K).  The CAF aircraft are owned and operated by the CAF, the pilots and crews are experienced volunteers who have specific and extensive training on their assigned aircraft. Mistakes were made here but I doubt ego and lack of experience were contributing factors.

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6 hours ago, Scooby said:


The warbird community has lost an extraordinary number of aircraft the last five or six years. A higher rate than the military, airlines, and general aviation. Something is seriously wrong in this community, including oversight by the regulators.

Comparing rates is an apples vs oranges thing.  General Aviation aircraft go down daily, the number flying keeps the accident RATE low.  The number of Warbirds is low, so any accident elevates the RATE.

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8 minutes ago, Da SWO said:

Comparing rates is an apples vs oranges thing.  General Aviation aircraft go down daily, the number flying keeps the accident RATE low.  The number of Warbirds is low, so any accident elevates the RATE.

Comparing rates (mishaps per 100,000 hours flown typically) is precisely how aviation safety analysis is done.

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