Cool Hand Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 7 hours ago, dai phan said: Some decals will be coming and then I will finalize the scheme. MRP sprays well but required too many coats (at least 6) to get adequate coverage. One light swipe with a sandpaper sponge and you back to square 1. Am I not doing something right? Dai Ok. Then I will suggest that you wait until you choose a scheme before proceeding with the painting. Since you are concerned with the proper hardness of borders in the camouflage colors, I will assume you will be interested to know more detailed information on how real 109's were painted. But it's your model and you can feel free to ignore this information. Bf 109G-6's were produced in three factories and each one has it own distinct pattern. This blog post has a great breakdown of the three types, but I will link the images here. http://theprofilepaintshop.blogspot.com/2013/10/chosing-correct-wingpattern-for-bf109g-6.html https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzT90eXSUSBVdE5rTWdJQzlEU1U/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzT90eXSUSBVQzJGQXNJNWlJOEU/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzT90eXSUSBVWVQzWkNJb0tyck0/view?usp=sharing But these are just general examples, and there are variations - especially in terms of how far down the spine the top colors go, where exactly the transitions between the top colors are, and the mottling density. No two 109's are identical. To illustrate this fact, I also provided an image of three 109G-2's from the Regensburg plant just after completion. Notice that the left horizontal stabilizers of the nearest aircraft have the opposite placement of the darker RLM 74 and that the farthest aircraft has it's upper wing cross filled with black but the other two have just the white portions. Also note the differences in the color placement on the spines and mottling. Your best bet is to choose a scheme and find reference images of the exact aircraft you want to model. Then go from there, using the general factory guidelines to fill in the blanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Cool Hand said: Ok. Then I will suggest that you wait until you choose a scheme before proceeding with the painting. Since you are concerned with the proper hardness of borders in the camouflage colors, I will assume you will be interested to know more detailed information on how real 109's were painted. But it's your model and you can feel free to ignore this information. Bf 109G-6's were produced in three factories and each one has it own distinct pattern. This blog post has a great breakdown of the three types, but I will link the images here. http://theprofilepaintshop.blogspot.com/2013/10/chosing-correct-wingpattern-for-bf109g-6.html https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzT90eXSUSBVdE5rTWdJQzlEU1U/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzT90eXSUSBVQzJGQXNJNWlJOEU/view?usp=sharing https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BzT90eXSUSBVWVQzWkNJb0tyck0/view?usp=sharing But these are just general examples, and there are variations - especially in terms of how far down the spine the top colors go, where exactly the transitions between the top colors are, and the mottling density. No two 109's are identical. To illustrate this fact, I also provided an image of three 109G-2's from the Regensburg plant just after completion. Notice that the left horizontal stabilizers of the nearest aircraft have the opposite placement of the darker RLM 74 and that the farthest aircraft has it's upper wing cross filled with black but the other two have just the white portions. Also note the differences in the color placement on the spines and mottling. Your best bet is to choose a scheme and find reference images of the exact aircraft you want to model. Then go from there, using the general factory guidelines to fill in the blanks. Thank you for much for the valuable and incredible information. Dai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 (edited) Greetings all, The scheme that I will do is the "Black 8". You can see the faint scalloping pattern on the leading edge so I must incorporate into the paint job. I welcome any comments regarding the accuracy of the illustrations. Dai Edited February 6 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Nice choice, Dai. Regarding the camouflage scheme on the decal sheet, it's probably wrong. I'm sure this plane is an Erla built aircraft and not one built at Regensburg. The Erla plant also produced the G-5 model with a pressurized cockpit. The air pump for this system needed a secondary bulge on the right cowling panel just forward of the main bulge. To simplify aircraft production, Erla decided to only make the G-5 cowl panel and to also use them on their G-6's. The aircraft you have chosen has this bulge, but it seems that the Tamiya kit only provides the standard G-6 cowl panels. But I wouldn't worry about that unless you're after total accuracy. I'm just pointing it out to show my reasoning regarding the camouflage. Here's a picture showing the Erla cowl with the double bulge: Even though it's very faint in the reference image you provided, you can make out the placement of the RLM 74 on the right wing. This also matches the Erla pattern. Here's a link to a Flickr album of many photos of Erla built G-6's: https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums/72157625486305536/page2 You can use them to better familiarize yourself with the variations in mottling. Some interesting details that I see in "Black 8": *The rear edge of the RLM 74 band over the nose is the edge of the cowl panels. The gun cover seems to be entirely RLM 75. *RLM 75 seems to extend down the sides of the spine all the way to the canopy sill. RLM 74 overlaps this aft of the canopy and ahead of the vertical stabilizer. Yellow band covers the transition between the 74 and 75. *Dark mottling overlaps the RLM 75 on both the nose and spine. Mottling shows a color darker than RLM 74, which is likely RLM 70 black-green. Extensive use of mid-tones suggests also the use of RLM 02 for some mottles. This makes four different shades of mottling, 02, 75, 74, 70 (ordered lightest to darkest). *Fuselage cross seems to be filled with RLM 70 or 74 with some 75 showing through. Good luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 Wow, this is getting to be way complicated than I thought. Perhaps just go with what shows on the illustration and call it a day? Dai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 It's your model, paint it how you want to. I just wanted to provide you with the relevant information regarding accuracy. I'm sure you will make it look good either way. Happy modelling. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 6 Author Share Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Cool Hand said: It's your model, paint it how you want to. I just wanted to provide you with the relevant information regarding accuracy. I'm sure you will make it look good either way. Happy modelling. Thank YOU so much for the help. I did not realize how complex the paint schemes can be until I look more into it. It is a hobby so I will make it as accurate as possible and enjoy. Dai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 10 minutes ago, dai phan said: Thank YOU so much for the help. I did not realize how complex the paint schemes can be until I look more into it. It is a hobby so I will make it as accurate as possible and enjoy. Dai And now you know why Luftwaffe subjects are are so appealing to some modelers, there is so much uniqueness between individual aircraft and the deeper you dive into the minutia of the details the more uniqueness you find. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 (edited) Greetings, More decals are arriving and really confusing. Eduard has a decal sheet for the black/red 8 and I would like to know if the painting instruction for the wings is correct. I got the LF mask pattern and is this appropriate or correct for the 8? it has the leading edge scallop pattern as seen on the photo. Dai Edited February 7 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 (edited) 17 hours ago, Cool Hand said: Nice choice, Dai. Regarding the camouflage scheme on the decal sheet, it's probably wrong. I'm sure this plane is an Erla built aircraft and not one built at Regensburg. The Erla plant also produced the G-5 model with a pressurized cockpit. The air pump for this system needed a secondary bulge on the right cowling panel just forward of the main bulge. To simplify aircraft production, Erla decided to only make the G-5 cowl panel and to also use them on their G-6's. The aircraft you have chosen has this bulge, but it seems that the Tamiya kit only provides the standard G-6 cowl panels. But I wouldn't worry about that unless you're after total accuracy. I'm just pointing it out to show my reasoning regarding the camouflage. Here's a picture showing the Erla cowl with the double bulge: Even though it's very faint in the reference image you provided, you can make out the placement of the RLM 74 on the right wing. This also matches the Erla pattern. Here's a link to a Flickr album of many photos of Erla built G-6's: https://www.flickr.com/photos/28092068@N03/albums/72157625486305536/page2 You can use them to better familiarize yourself with the variations in mottling. Some interesting details that I see in "Black 8": *The rear edge of the RLM 74 band over the nose is the edge of the cowl panels. The gun cover seems to be entirely RLM 75. *RLM 75 seems to extend down the sides of the spine all the way to the canopy sill. RLM 74 overlaps this aft of the canopy and ahead of the vertical stabilizer. Yellow band covers the transition between the 74 and 75. *Dark mottling overlaps the RLM 75 on both the nose and spine. Mottling shows a color darker than RLM 74, which is likely RLM 70 black-green. Extensive use of mid-tones suggests also the use of RLM 02 for some mottles. This makes four different shades of mottling, 02, 75, 74, 70 (ordered lightest to darkest). *Fuselage cross seems to be filled with RLM 70 or 74 with some 75 showing through. Good luck! If the 8 was built at the Erla factory, then the pattern seen on the photo matches the Eduard's illustration and therefore I should follow the Eduard instruction sheet? Dai Edited February 7 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 25 minutes ago, dai phan said: If the 8 was built at the Erla factory, then the pattern seen on the photo matches the Eduard's illustration and therefore I should follow the Eduard instruction sheet? Dai Yes, the Eduard instructions show an accurate camouflage pattern. Although I believe the rudder is white like the Eagle decals show. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 (edited) Ok gang, I went to the Top Notch website in UK and ordered all of the 109G masks (except G-10). Looks like the first one is accurate for the scheme I choose. I will need to raise the mask about 4 mm away from the surface to get the soft edge demarcation. Dai Edited February 7 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 For the Luftwaffe experten, since the camo pattern is quite complex with scallop edges, is this possible this was done with mask? Or it should be soft edge? Dai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 (edited) 1 hour ago, dai phan said: For the Luftwaffe experten, since the camo pattern is quite complex with scallop edges, is this possible this was done with mask? Or it should be soft edge? Dai The answer is soft as seen on the photo from Cool Hand. On YT many modelers use masking tape for hard edge which is not accurate. Dai Edited February 7 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 It appears Eduard and Top Notch have the pattern right. I am surprised Eagle Cals decals are so off. Dai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 Hi all, How do you know which aircraft was manufactured at what facility aside from the decal instructions? Dai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 36 minutes ago, dai phan said: Hi all, How do you know which aircraft was manufactured at what facility aside from the decal instructions? Dai The paint pattern is the main clue. Otherwise you would need to know the aircraft's serial number, Werknummer (W.Nr.) in German. Unfortunately, unlike USAAF or RAF aircraft, these numbers are not painted large enough in most cases to be read in photos. Here's a clear example from a Jg 1 aircraft: Edited February 9 by Cool Hand fixed typo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 9 Author Share Posted February 9 2 minutes ago, Cool Hand said: The paint pattern is the main clue. Otherwise you would need to know the aircraft's serial number, Werknummer (W.Nr.) in German. Unfortunately, unlike USAAF or RAF aircraft, these numbers are not painted large enough in most cases to be read in photos. Here's a clear example from a Jg 1 aircraft: So when I choose the scheme from the decal sheet, look up on the Net and see where it was made from. The illustration of the black/red 8 on the Eagle Cals is wrong but Eduard got it right. Dai Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 17 minutes ago, dai phan said: So when I choose the scheme from the decal sheet, look up on the Net and see where it was made from. The illustration of the black/red 8 on the Eagle Cals is wrong but Eduard got it right. Dai Yes. It's always a good idea to search for reference photos and other information. In some cases, you won't find all the information in one place and will need to piece it together. But it's not likely you will find a Werknummer unless you can find a source that can link a plane to a pilot or to an incident report. If a basic google search for the aircraft or pilot doesn't result in the answer being found in short order, then the Werknummer is probably unknown. In most cases, it's probably not worth much more effort than to find a photo pf the plane. Edited February 9 by Cool Hand Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 (edited) Hi all, I already have the mask for the MTT scheme so I may go ahead and paint that scheme this weekend. The Top Notch mask may not arrive in few more weeks. So to find a scheme that has the MTT, I have to look up the details of the scheme (pilot, JG, location of operations...) and go from there I reckon? Is there any colorful scheme that you see on my decal sheets that is MTT? Thanks Dai PS: The Eagle Cals decals have several schemes from MTT factory but who knows if they are accurate. Edited February 10 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 From looking at the decal sheets there are indeed a few definite MTT built 109's and a few possible ones. Here are the definite MTT 109's: Top three schemes on EagleCals #27 (Yellow 6, White 1, and White 12) Middle two schemes on EagleCals #42 (Yellow 16 and Yellow 6) Note that Yellow 16's rudder was not actually white - reference photo clearly shows it was just an illusion caused by the rudder being deflected to the right, making it look lighter in the sunlight. Possible MTT 109's Middle two schemes from EagleCals #171 (Red 11 and Blue 14) Top Scheme on EagleCals #42 (Mickey Mouse) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 12 Author Share Posted February 12 (edited) Greetings, I decided to do the Erla scheme so I will wait for the Two Notch mask. So I painted all the things I could until the mask arrived. Dai Edited February 12 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 (edited) Hello everyone... Got the main airframe painted. The plane is heavily mottled from the photo without the discernable top layer so I duplicate the best I could. I still have to do some touch ups. Dai Edited February 19 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dai phan Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 (edited) The Eagle Cals got the illustration correct on the profile view but wrong on the wing patterns. Eduard's got the profile wrong (not mottled enough) but correct of the Erla wing pattern. Dai Edited February 18 by dai phan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 That looks great. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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