Hajo L. Posted February 19, 2023 Share Posted February 19, 2023 Maybe someone knows something or even has pictures? I have a "spare" C-47 kit and since I´m a great Special Forces fan, I´d love to build this C-47 in some kind of support role. Of course I know (and built!) the AC-47, but I was wondering if there are any information or details about maybe early SOG-operations with C-47 in Vietnam before they turned to more modern aircraft. So, any ideas what may suit my interest? Thanks in advance! HAJO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikar Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 The only C-47s I saw over there were for lighter cargo and passenger runs, and these were seldom seen. I had to take one to Bangkok once and it was a unforgettable flight. The best thing about it, besides getting out of it, was that it sounded just like it did in the movies. My Father used to fly them for a while but after he was grounded, he ended up jumping out of them into Europe as a member of the OSS. On me second tour I did see a civilian marked C-46 make an emergency landing at our base with a blown out engine. We had to assign a guard who was given orders by the crew to shoot anyone trying to get to the aircraft without escort. That was my first and only actual contact with the CIA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 have never seen one in the flesh, but there was an EC47 used in conjunction with C Teams operating out of DaNang. I'd have imagined they also worked with MACV teams, but not real sure about SOG. SOG teams made very little radio contact unless it was dire. Even when they did it was thru a laser link system. My base camp was actually an SF camp (A102), and it had a gravel air strip. Might have been too short for a C47, but C7's and once in a great while a C130 could just clear the tree line to the west of it. We did see a couple C123's out there, but 90% were from C7's gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
peter havriluk Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 (edited) Preface: I have no specific knowledge about this most unusual use of C-47's in WWII. Now, the story goes back to Uncle Sams Army Air Corps transporting Swedish police way up north to secure the country's borders and discourage any wandering Russians who might want to venture into Norway late in the war, in hot pursuit of Germans, of course. I don't think these policemen were donut dogs or writers of speeding tickets. These aircraft were fully equipped with the latest-and-greatest navigational equipment not yet in common use, like VOR beacons. Uncle Sam was doing some in-service testing. There's quite a story in there and I have never encountered a comprehensive telling of it. Maybe some digging will turn up photographs that modelers can use. Edited February 20, 2023 by peter havriluk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Da SWO Posted February 20, 2023 Share Posted February 20, 2023 EC-47 radio relay or SIGINT bird. I have photo's of the EC-47 that's on static display at Kelly Field if you go that route. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spinnaker Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 What about building one of Heinie Aderholt’s spy/commando/napalm dropping Operation Aviary C-47s in Korea? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmat6441 Posted February 21, 2023 Share Posted February 21, 2023 (edited) Here is mentioned of the SC-47Ds used to fly recon missions over Laos, in 62 or so. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0699jars/ One that flew out of Korea at the same time had a special camera. I believe that this was the one shot down over Laos. I have a xerox of natural metal C-47 with a row of dorsal antennas visiting Yokota. Will try to hunt down references. You might look at Farm Gate C-47s that had VNAF markings. Edited February 21, 2023 by gmat6441 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 23 hours ago, gmat6441 said: Here is mentioned of the SC-47Ds used to fly recon missions over Laos, in 62 or so. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0699jars/ One that flew out of Korea at the same time had a special camera. I believe that this was the one shot down over Laos. I have a xerox of natural metal C-47 with a row of dorsal antennas visiting Yokota. Will try to hunt down references. You might look at Farm Gate C-47s that had VNAF markings. been quite awhile since I looked, but think there was a shoot down in very late 68 just south of the Mu Gai Pass by radar guided 57mm AA in Laos. If memory is correct, there were no survivors and they were on scene going thru the wreckage several times. I can't think of any radio traffic going thru it, or as for than know of anybody using them. There was also a C130 that flew a "L shaped" orbit, that did the same thing but stayed on the east side of the fence. His orbit went way south of the Que Son A.O. and all the way north to the DMZ. It was said they monitored NVA radio traffic and had some specialized radar that allowed them to track Mig's as soon as they were airborne. It was like a giant fire push, and they had no trouble reaching the coast line. Often we got fire missions relayed thru them under Apache Six (or something like that). We'd heard that it was fatal to do a radar lock on that C130. Back to the C47 a second. There was also a C47 flare ship. How many I have no idea, but there was at least on flying out of DaNang gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmat6441 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 The special aircraft sounds like the EC-121K Rivet Top. It can be distinguished from other USAF R/EC-121s by its black dorsal radome. http://usafss_boltinghouse.tripod.com/rc130bii/index.html https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:EC-121K_Rivet_Top_in_South_East_Asia_c1968.jpg But there were also C-130B-II Sun Valley aircraft that flew over the gulf. http://usafss_boltinghouse.tripod.com/rc130bii/index.html By 68, black bottom C-130A Blind Bat aircraft flew the flare missions. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0789bat/ https://www.c-130hercules.net/index.php?/forums/topic/9624-blind-bat-aircraft-1969-70-from-john-allen/ The least known C-130 variant that apparently made it to SEA was the RC-130S BIAS Hunter https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/bias.htm Getting back to C-47 variants over SEA, EC-47s had an elongated nose. https://www.ec47.com/3-the-ec-47-tour-part-i-external-modifications Hajo L, This book is very good but impossible to find. https://www.hlj.com/aircraft-of-the-usaf-in-japan-1946-1969-othbk042 And this one https://www.hlj.com/good-old-wings-from-my-album-1-1949-1960-agc61090 Grant Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted February 23, 2023 Share Posted February 23, 2023 18 hours ago, gmat6441 said: The special aircraft sounds like the EC-121K Rivet Top. It can be distinguished from other USAF R/EC-121s by its black dorsal radome. http://usafss_boltinghouse.tripod.com/rc130bii/index.html https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:EC-121K_Rivet_Top_in_South_East_Asia_c1968.jpg But there were also C-130B-II Sun Valley aircraft that flew over the gulf. http://usafss_boltinghouse.tripod.com/rc130bii/index.html By 68, black bottom C-130A Blind Bat aircraft flew the flare missions. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/0789bat/ https://www.c-130hercules.net/index.php?/forums/topic/9624-blind-bat-aircraft-1969-70-from-john-allen/ The least known C-130 variant that apparently made it to SEA was the RC-130S BIAS Hunter https://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/bias.htm Getting back to C-47 variants over SEA, EC-47s had an elongated nose. https://www.ec47.com/3-the-ec-47-tour-part-i-external-modifications Hajo L, This book is very good but impossible to find. https://www.hlj.com/aircraft-of-the-usaf-in-japan-1946-1969-othbk042 And this one https://www.hlj.com/good-old-wings-from-my-album-1-1949-1960-agc61090 Grant your posts are always very informative. I know who to run the EC121 thing thru, as he was the crew chief (or whatever they call it) out of Da Nang. He replaced the EC121 that burnt up if I remember right. Out on the fence radio communications were spotty on a good day, and extremely bad in bad weather. We had to have the relay system(s) 24/7 just to stay alive. Out our way the only folks flying after dark were the big stuff and a couple OV-1's with "sniffer pods." It became a "get me thru the night theme song!" gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hajo L. Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 Thank you for your input guys, great start to continue some more research! Much appreciated! HAJO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 On 2/19/2023 at 9:59 PM, ikar said: The only C-47s I saw over there were for lighter cargo and passenger runs, and these were seldom seen. I had to take one to Bangkok once and it was a unforgettable flight. The best thing about it, besides getting out of it, was that it sounded just like it did in the movies. My Father used to fly them for a while but after he was grounded, he ended up jumping out of them into Europe as a member of the OSS. On me second tour I did see a civilian marked C-46 make an emergency landing at our base with a blown out engine. We had to assign a guard who was given orders by the crew to shoot anyone trying to get to the aircraft without escort. That was my first and only actual contact with the CIA. Prior to hitting Cam Rhon in Dec. 67, my only flying time was on a Lockheed Electra, a Boeing 707, and lastly a Convair 880 (been that long). My flight out of Cam Rhon was in the back of a C130, and thought it was going down at any minute! I vowed to never every get inside one again (it was all the screeching and grinding back there). So about the third week of January Top says I have to go back to Cam Rhon as they forgot to have me sign the pay roll card and next of kin cards. We got about a six or seven mile jaunt up Highway One to get to Chu Lai. Sure as hell it was a C130! Might have been the same one! Top and are into it out front of that garage they used as a control tower. Guy says there a second flight leaving in about fifteen minutes and it was a C47 (what's that?) Top says it's a great plane and he'd jumped out of them many times. We go over to the white with blue stripes DC-3 just setting there. I go up the boarding ramp in it has real seats!!! I jump into the first seat by the door on the left, and fasten my seat belt. Right away I hear somebody slam the door closed while they start the engines with smoke going everywhere. Then it hit me! What is that smell? Like I was in a barnyard. About this time a bunch of chickens come running down the center walkway. I turn to see that they removed all the seats to the right of the door, and there were two pigs in crates and a cow in a crate! This is nuts I thought as the plane is taxing out on the runway. That's when I see that I'm on a South Vietnamese Navy plane. Now I'm real scared and can't get out of the plane! We take off and head south. Plane was quiet and smooth as glass. It landed with out even a bump, and is still the best flight I've ever had. Wish I could say that about coming back. That flight was on a C123, and to call it junk would have been a compliment. Two weeks later I watch that same plane fly strait into a mountain side with 19 kids inside it. gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikar Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 One day I was talking to a C-47 Load Master and he said a few days previously they had a load of perforated planks for a base a bit up north. He said the pilots had a tough time getting off the ground and he saw both straining at their wheels and just barely got off the ground. They were having trouble getting altitude and he went and checked the cargo. According to the manifest they were hauling perforated aluminum planks but when he really checked he found out it was actually steel planks and they were almost 1/3 past their gross weight limit. Tough little aircraft. My Father was flying them for a time during WWII until he got grounded and could only be a passenger, but he had nothing but praise for them. I didn't think much about the 130s until my second tour where we had several different types of C-130s based there and eventually got the AC-130A and H models When I got to Little Rock, I got to see what a C-130 Trash Hauler could really do and sometimes we would get some very strange ones stop by. I was impressed by them. But I still hate flying, Too many near misses with other aircraft and the copter we were in, and even a light fight one night. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 7 hours ago, ikar said: One day I was talking to a C-47 Load Master and he said a few days previously they had a load of perforated planks for a base a bit up north. He said the pilots had a tough time getting off the ground and he saw both straining at their wheels and just barely got off the ground. They were having trouble getting altitude and he went and checked the cargo. According to the manifest they were hauling perforated aluminum planks but when he really checked he found out it was actually steel planks and they were almost 1/3 past their gross weight limit. Tough little aircraft. My Father was flying them for a time during WWII until he got grounded and could only be a passenger, but he had nothing but praise for them. I didn't think much about the 130s until my second tour where we had several different types of C-130s based there and eventually got the AC-130A and H models When I got to Little Rock, I got to see what a C-130 Trash Hauler could really do and sometimes we would get some very strange ones stop by. I was impressed by them. But I still hate flying, Too many near misses with other aircraft and the copter we were in, and even a light fight one night. the one thing I loved about the C130 was that there was one based out of Chu Lai, and had seven crew men. They actually built a large mess hall for those guys even though the Marines had a similar one a quarter mile east. This was the best food in Chu Lai, and the mess sargent had pineapple upside down cake every day. I headed strait over there everytime I flowed thru Chu Lai That mess hall would probably hold fifty or sixty people at a time! In I-Corp most SF camps saw almost nothing but C7's and choppers. A102 probably saw 10 or 12 choppers a day with all the need be stuff to survive on. During the hot dry season you often would see four loads of 155mm rounds a day and three or four loads of powder. Slicks usually brought food and things they don't like to mix with HE rounds (fuses, small arms ammo, etc) twice a day. Then there was water, Mogas, and diesel fuel. Just a constant in and out during daylight. C-7's usually did pallet drops, and their stuff went to everybody gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) What about the C-47s used during WWII to supply the partisans in Yugoslavia and then actually flew into clandestine airfields and flew out downed aviators? Edited March 28, 2023 by Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Orion Field Posted March 28, 2023 Share Posted March 28, 2023 (edited) The USAF 6th Special Operations Sqn used a Basler BT-67 (Turboprop C-47) until 2010, unfortunately, photos are few and far between. There is also N161PR, which is in use currently by the US Navy. Edited March 28, 2023 by Orion Field Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted March 29, 2023 Share Posted March 29, 2023 12 hours ago, Orion Field said: The USAF 6th Special Operations Sqn used a Basler BT-67 (Turboprop C-47) until 2010, unfortunately, photos are few and far between. There is also N161PR, which is in use currently by the US Navy. Allison had a C47 in Indy that had a T56 turbo prop in the nose. I seen a few pictures of it. gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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