AMMO MiG-17F in 48th scale

[Curt B]

On 11/10/2023 at 1:42 AM, ya-gabor said:

Hi Curt B,

 

Hope you are well!

Did you ever manage to get out to that MiG-17 at the base?

 

Best regards

Gabor

Hi Gabor, no haven't made it  yet, but still planning to, and still want to take pictures to post here.   Will update here as soon as I get those photos!  

[ya-gabor]

1 hour ago, Curt B said:

Hi Gabor, no haven't made it  yet, but still planning to, and still want to take pictures to post here.   Will update here as soon as I get those photos!  

Hi Curt B,

 

Thanks for the reply! Good luck! and have fun if you manage to get there!!!!!!!!!!!   : )   : )

 

Gabor

 

[ya-gabor]

On 9/28/2023 at 3:31 PM, dai phan said:

Hi Gene

 

I will send Ammo my concerns so perhaps they will stop rolling out the production. Will keep you here all informed. Dai 

 

Was there ever any response from AMMO about the size issues?

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

On 12/8/2023 at 4:52 AM, ya-gabor said:

 

Was there ever any response from AMMO about the size issues?

 

Best regards

Gabor

Please scroll down page 3 for your inquiry. Dai 

 

 

[ya-gabor]

Thanks but this is not what my question was. I know they shown a perfect fit, but at the same time requested you to show what the problem is.

SO WAS THERE ANY RESPONSE SINCE THEN?

Did you show them what the problem seems to be? Did they respond to this?

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

18 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

Thanks but this is not what my question was. I know they shown a perfect fit, but at the same time requested you to show what the problem is.

SO WAS THERE ANY RESPONSE SINCE THEN?

Did you show them what the problem seems to be? Did they respond to this?

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

As far as I know, there has been no response since then but I need to check my Spam folder to make sure. Will update you tonight. Dai 

[dai phan]

On 12/14/2023 at 9:36 AM, dai phan said:

As far as I know, there has been no response since then but I need to check my Spam folder to make sure. Will update you tonight. Dai 

I did not see any more responses. The resin seat is over sized but it will fit the tub if you do not use the cockpit 3D decals and tighten the tub as advised in the addendum sheet. I used the 3D decals and did some shavings as advised so the tub will not cause a gap in fuse. Then the resin seat will NOT fit. Also the ladder is undersized and incorrect. Needless to say the Premium Edition is a waste of money. The quality of this kit is typical Trumpeter, HB and nothing to rave about. Dai 

[dai phan]

From my post in the build thread...

 

OK gangs,

 

I see the problem now. If you assemble the tube as IS without shaving the side tubes, then you will have the proper width (barely) to fit the resin seat.  But then the fuselage may not close properly. You can see the gap pointed by the arrow on Ammo test piece. Second if you use the 3D panels this will reduce the width even more making the resin seat impossible to fit. Conclusion? The resin seat is oversized and should be at the same width as the plastic seat. You still can use the resin seat if you do not shave the tubings but shave the mating surfaces on the tub/fuselage allowing the fuselage halves to fit without the gap. And if you use the 3D panels, shave extra of the plastic say .5 mm more so the panels would not affect the fit of the resin seat. Way too much work in my view. Ammo should go ahead and resize and reprint to save us lots of hassles. And offer to send us replacements free of charge. Dai 

 

PS: I reckon when the resin company designed the seat they did it without knowing the sides tubes have to be sanded down affecting the width. Also did not account for the thickness of the 3D panels. The photo is from Ammo reply. 

 

Edited January 4, 2024 by dai phan

[ya-gabor]

Here is a just released set of 3D printed Quinta „decals” for the AMMO MiG-17F kit. Good to see that they listened to the advice and the overhead “D ring” for ejection initiation was added to the set as Part G. It is of the right shape and proportions in comparison to kits “interpretation” on part B50.

 

On the bad side, decal 1 is wrong unfortunately. : (  : (  This is the automatic timer on the right hand side near the pilots shoulder. The way it is shown it corresponds to the AD-3 used on the SK seats. The timer on the “Curtain” type seat for the MiG-17 had a rectangular black unit with a timer dial.

 

We also get what others missed, like the warning decal (Part J) on the left side of the head box which was standard feature of factory fresh ejection seats as well as the sign on the top of the seat (Part H), instruction for removing the seat from the aircraft. Please note that after overhaul or unit level repaint most of these labels were not reproduced.

Also included is the “red apple” (Part 6) the manual release of the firing mechanism for ejection.

 

The seat straps and lock are the right version with right colours. One will only have to add the automatic timer release cord to the lock.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

Let us step back a little bit and let’s look at those REAL natural metal surfaces on aircraft used by air forces east of the iron curtain.

 

Yesterday had the opportunity to have a closer look at a restored MiG-21MF. After several years of work the aircraft was unveiled to revel the original natural metal finish with which these fighters were delivered from the factory in early 1970’s. Just a reminder, this was the REAL natural metal finish where the airframe received one or two coats of transparent lacquer for surface corrosion protection. But apart from this one was able to see the true metal surface with all the rivets and screw heads. . .  The only panels which were painted are the ones from different metals, like for example the counter weights on the end of stabilizers, some fuel tanks . . .  All the rest was left as it was, just that lacquer on top of it. Of course the restorer team reproduced all the original stencils, individual markings for that period.

 

OK, but how do you get all those different metal colour panels when looking at period photos. Very simple, the aluminium sheets used for them had different texture. Well actually it was the same “grain line” surface resulting from sheet metal work. They had zillions of microscopic lines running parallel on the surface . The way that surface reflects light is different depending on which way you turn that particular panel during installation and of course the direction you look at it. In this case where you have one panel next to another one but on the second those lines are running at an angle or perpendicular to the first panels then light will reflect from it in a different way. While it is exactly the same aluminium!!!

 

There is one important difference to Western fighters, like the WW2 Mustang or an F-86, the Soviets did not polish that surface in anyway. (I am not saying that all Mustangs, Sabres or Starfighters had some polished surfaces but some of them certainly did) With the Soviets the metal was used on the aircraft as is. So it could appear a little more dull but this was compensated by the covering varnish layers which made them a distinct shiny metallic surface with different tones of colours depending on reflection of light.

 

I know it is a MiG-21MF in the illustrations, but it was exactly the same with the MiG-17F or MiG-15’s coming down from the assembly line in a Soviet factory!

Have a look, the same panels, but photos taken from a slightly different angle. All the rivets are perfectly visible, the different versions of screws in different colours . . . This is all as it was originally!

 

In case of the MiG-21MF if you don’t trust me and this otherwise excellent restoration I can recommend those magnificent photos of MiG-21MF visiting France for the very first time, decades ago where French “modellers”  : )  : )  : )   took a lot of time taking detailed photos of every possible detail, every visible stencil and all the panels and rivets / screws were visible in exactly the same way as on this Hungarian airframe in 2024!   

 

Now the only question is how do you reproduce this on a scale kit. But it is all up to you!  I can only show what it is on the real aircraft.

Have fun!!!  : )  : )   : )

 

Best regards

Gabor

[ya-gabor]

I was looking through my photos of this true natural metal airframe, taken last weekend. Which has ONLY a protective layer of varnish just as the finish when it was manufactured half a century ago. Here is another example of how colour changes depending on what angle you look at it. This is the same area on the after end of the fuselage, panel between the wing and the stabilizer.

 

The surface metal is exactly the same, just as the rivets, but you will get a very different colour depending on the light. The rivets could look like a light grey colour in contrast with the surface or a very dark colour in comparison to the surface. Yes, the rivets are a different aluminium but for a scale kit this should not be a problem.

 

The real problem/question is what colour wash will you be using to reproduce this on your kit???  : )   : )   : )

 

Best regards

Gabor

[falcon91352]

Thank you Gabor for these nice pictures and informations. Where can this restored bare metal MiG-21MF be admired? Is it displayed in a Hungarian museum?

 

Concerning Russian combat aircraft, I must say, that these rivets also can be seen on most types with camo paints on them. Shortly after the fall of the iron curtain, I have visited may bases of former Warsaw Pact air arms and one of my first impression was, that the rivet structure was easily visible on the airplanes, especially when the paint was somewhat worn and reflections from the light occured.

 

Rivet structures on many painted planes easily can be realized, if one is willing to see those. Accordingly, it is not unrealistic to represent those on a scale model, if not overdone by an exaggerated black washing. As a benefit, rivets add visual interest on an otherwise boring surface of a bare metal or painted model, if they are subtly accentuated.

 

 

 

 

[ya-gabor]

Hi Falcon 91352

 

That particular MiG-21MF is located in a small private museum in Berekfürdő, a small city in the East of Hungary. Last Saturday was the official unveiling of this aircraft. Have no ideas what the opening hours are, but as far as I know they open on advanced appointment. You can see there a Soviet Mi-24D and this Hungarian MiG-21MF No. 9603.

 

As for the rivets but mainly about metal colours my posts above were a response to some questions from a year or two ago about the finish on the “metal” MiG-17F’s. The concern from a US forum member was that in his opinion the planes were painted with aluminium colour paint and they were not really a TRUE natural metal finishes! The assumption was based on the fact that US aircraft with TRUE metal finish had a much shinier / metallic look in comparison to this dull Soviet finish:

 

„Compare almost any MiG to a contemporary natural metal American fighter like an F-104 or an F-86.  American types are blindingly bright and shiny.  Soviet aircraft are not.”

 

Also a so called expert/author in the West knew exactly how the aircraft were painted in the East. Weeeeeelllll I would not be so sure about this! 

 

1. And yes, one can see of course rivets on camo painted aircraft but it will not be so obvious. That is if you look close up at a real aircraft. All this translated to a scale plastic kit would be very different with the rivets on a painted camo surface disappearing completely. Only the fast locks and big screw heads will show, but not the flush rivets.

 

2. It is another story for a TRUE natural metal scale kit where, as shown on previous photos of this MiG-21MF ALL the rivets will be visible.

 

3. Once again it was a completely different story when later in their service life the aircraft were painted overall Aluminium coloured paint, making the surface completely uniform and boooooring!

  

Here is the invitation to last Saturdays event. Sorry it is all in Hungarian but at least it has some contacts on it which are universal. 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[CRAZY IVAN5]

I happe3n to have a couple of Quickboost resin seats for the -17. I wonder if they'll fit without grief ? Of course I don't know how accurate they are. Does the plastic seat fit ok?

[ya-gabor]

12 hours ago, CRAZY IVAN5 said:

I happe3n to have a couple of Quickboost resin seats for the -17. I wonder if they'll fit without grief ? Of course I don't know how accurate they are. Does the plastic seat fit ok?

 

The plastic seats are OK but you need to remove a little of wiring that AMMO added on the side panels at the back. With out this "surgery" the cockpit will not fit into the fuselage. As for the plastic seat it goes in OK if you simply paint the cockpit. On the other hand if you want to use the Red Fox 3D printed interior "decals" then one needs to shave off the plastic surface details on the two side boxes to get the seat inside.

 

Few pages earlier the AMMO resin replacement seat was mentioned here. It is a complete flop, overscale and useless (at a lot of extra cost). Before the AMMO kit was released I was in contact with the manufacturer about some problematic details on the 3D direct printed extras. They refussed all comments saying that it is good as it is. Oh well . . .

 

Have no idea about the Quickboost seat, never seen it, never had it in my hand or tried into the AMMO kit cockpit. Hopefully someone outthere has it and can reflect on this! 

 

Best regards

Gabor

[dai phan]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:31 AM, ya-gabor said:

 

The plastic seats are OK but you need to remove a little of wiring that AMMO added on the side panels at the back. With out this "surgery" the cockpit will not fit into the fuselage. As for the plastic seat it goes in OK if you simply paint the cockpit. On the other hand if you want to use the Red Fox 3D printed interior "decals" then one needs to shave off the plastic surface details on the two side boxes to get the seat inside.

 

Few pages earlier the AMMO resin replacement seat was mentioned here. It is a complete flop, overscale and useless (at a lot of extra cost). Before the AMMO kit was released I was in contact with the manufacturer about some problematic details on the 3D direct printed extras. They refussed all comments saying that it is good as it is. Oh well . . .

 

Have no idea about the Quickboost seat, never seen it, never had it in my hand or tried into the AMMO kit cockpit. Hopefully someone outthere has it and can reflect on this! 

 

Best regards

Gabor

Actually the Premium set is worthless. The seat is over scaled and the ladder is way short. Really no excuse for this. See my build thread. Dai 

 

Edited July 22, 2024 by dai phan