The Thunderbirds F-4E and Blue Angels F-4J Thread

[Ben Brown]

Hi All,

 

Per a discussion in another thread, I thought I'd start a new thread covering the T-Birds F-4Es and BA F-4Js to save folks from having to dig through multiple threads for info. I'll try to keep from going full-on nerd with technical stuff. I'll mainly stick to what we can do to modify our models to look like these jets. If you have any info on either team's jets, feel free to add it here. The more contributors, the better! Questions are welcome, too. 

 

I'll add content as time & family allow. 

Via Wikipedia

Via Wikipedia

 

Ben

 

 

Edited April 12 by Ben Brown

[Ben Brown]

I'll start out with scans from a USAF manual showing some of the mods made to the F-4E. I failed to make a note of how I got these. If you sent these to me or posted them somewhere, please let me know so I can give you proper credit.

 

First up is the smoke probe location. My notes say the tube was ~1" in diameter. The Blue Angels probe was the same, just one panel farther aft.

 

This photo came from the same source, photographer unknown. If this is you or your photo, please let me know!

 

Here are the stabilator mods, as discussed in the FineMolds F-4 thread. The BA jets were also so modified. Notice the arrowhead-shaped stiffener is longer than what you see on "regular" F-4s, carrying all the way up to the edge of the bare titanium leading edge slot. It's hard to see the plates in photos from the 1970-'73 seasons because of the Corogard-painted surfaces helps hide them. They show up as lighter areas on the unpainted metal areas of the 1969-'70s seasons.

From Threshold - The Blue Angels Experience. This would be from the 1973 season. I've found one photo of 153086 from an earlier season, possibly '69 or '70, that clearly shows the stiffener. I'm guessing the dates, because the natural metal area is unpainted. Later seasons it was painted, as seen in the photo below. I'll address that more when I get to the paint.

 

Ben

 

Edited April 13 by Ben Brown

[Ben Brown]

Both teams had a tape antenna added to the rear canopy. All of the BA jets seem to have had that antenna on the spine. Here is more info on the canopy antenna from Tommy Thomason's excellent blog: LINK

Via Bill Spidle & YouTube

 

Smoke system fitted to both teams.

Ben

 

Edited April 12 by Ben Brown

[Finn]

Here is the front IP:

 

 

and the rear one:

 

Jari

[Ben Brown]

Thanks, Jari!

 

Here are the BA F-4J panels. 

 

 

Blue Angel 2 is traditionally flown by a Marine pilot. As a joke when the team switched to F-4Js, a "banana dispenser" was added to the #2 jet. I haven't found where in the cockpit it was installed. Source

 

Ben

Edited June 13 by Ben Brown
Banana dispenser added

[habu2]

Excellent info, thanks 👍

[JackMan]

The Story Behind The Thunderbirds’ Black-Tailed F-4 Phantom And “Captain Carbon”

https://www.twz.com/40784/heres-the-story-behind-the-thunderbirds-black-tailed-f-4-phantom

 

 

[RichB63]

Great stuff Ben…many thanks for posting!

[Youngtiger1]

Great thread and it will come handy when modeling these jets. A friend of mine served under Tom Swalm and told me how amazing of an individual he was and he was a talented pilot. So, his #1 jet in my to do list. 

[Ben Brown]

A short note about Blue Angels afterburners. Tommy Thomason has a great blog post about the difference between the afterburners on the F-4. The Blue Angels jets had the early, short nozzles, with the exception of 153876 and 153839, which were brought in later to replace losses. LINK

 

Modeler's note: Unlike the long nose F-4s, the short nose jets had the pitot tube mounted to the leading edge of the tail. All F-4s had a bellows probe for the artificial feel system mounted on the leading edge of the tail, directly above the red anti collision beacon. This system was deactivated on the Blue Angels jets and the probe was removed. The T-Birds F-4Es retained the probe.

[Ben Brown]

Tommy Thomason has a great blog post on Blue Angels colors HERE.

For the F-4J through the F/A-18, the Blues went with commercially available paint. Even though different paint manufacturers were used over time, the blues were supposed to be similar. The F-4J used a yellow that was a close match to FS 13538 “Chrome Yellow.” As Tommy mentions, what is usually sold as Blue Angel Blue, FS 15050, has sometimes been thought to be too dark and too grey. Hal Tippens, proprietor of Yellowhammer decals, believes that FS 15052 is a closer match. ARC forum member @82Whitey51 was able to compare 15052 with a Blue Angels F/A-18 and found it to be a very close match. He says XtraColour X163 "Blue Angels McDonnell-Douglas F/A-18 Blue 1999" and XtraColor X123 enamels are both FS 15052. Gunze Aqueous H322 (Mr Color C322 lacquer) Phthalo Cyanine Blue are also matches. There have been some posts on various forums that Krylon True Blue is a good match and is used for touch-ups on the Hornets. I can't confirm if it is used for touch-ups, but as you can see below, it's too light. It is, however, a near perfect match for Mazda Mariner Blue, if you need to touch up the paint on your 1st generation Miata.

Hal Tippens generously gave me a section of tape that was used to mask an F/A-18. Here are some crappy cell phone pics showing how Gunze H328 (FS 15050), Mr Color C322 (FS 15052), and Krylon True Blue compare to paint from the real jet in direct sunlight and shade.

 

 

Here is the canopy and a chunk of the airframe from 153086, which crashed on 4 June 1971 (CDR Harley Hall ejected safely) for reference. There's no way to know if or how long either was subjected to sunlight, and the lighting in the room could also affect the color when photographed.

 

The leading edges of the wings and tail were painted Corogard (just use your favorite aluminum paint). For the 1969 and 1970(?) seasons, the natural metal areas were left unpainted. They were painted starting with the 1971 season. The drag chute door was polished metal. When the natural metal area was painted, it didn’t follow the notch above the afterburner nozzle, but continued straight towards the louvered vent slightly forward.

Painted:

 

Natural metal:

At the same time, the leading edge slats were completely painted silver, instead of just the forward ½ as seen below. 

The insides of the intakes, small main gear doors, forward nose gear door, large main gear doors, and landing gear struts were painted gloss white. 
The insides of the aft nose gear door, inboard main gear doors, wheel hubs, and speed brake wells were blue. I have in my notes that the inside faces of the speed brakes were also blue, but I haven’t been able to confirm that. 
 

Edited April 19 by Ben Brown
Updated paint samples

[Ben Brown]

A good reference photo for the topside of the F-4J. The round ADF antenna is visible on Door 19, just aft of the rear canopy. This jet also appears to have the elongated stab reinforcement plates installed. They show up as lighter metal at the outboard ends of the dark center spars. 

 

Closeup of the engine area with the silver-painted aft fuselage. Source

 

[Ben Brown]

I was asked if I knew how either team stowed the rear seat harnesses when the seat was unoccupied, but I don't have that info. Anyone? 

 

Ben

Edited April 14 by Ben Brown

[boom175]

Great thread!! learn something new everyday!! Didn't know about the reinforcing plates on the demo team jets and there different shapes than the "normal ones we have seen on USAF and allied jets. Need some drawing for the TBird and BA plates.

[Ben Brown]

1 hour ago, boom175 said:

Great thread!! learn something new everyday!! Didn't know about the reinforcing plates on the demo team jets and there different shapes than the "normal ones we have seen on USAF and allied jets. Need some drawing for the TBird and BA plates.

I didn’t notice they were shaped differently until I started digging through my references to start this thread! 😄

 

Ben

[Jetdog]

What a fantastic idea for a thread!  Thanks for getting it started.  These planes were viewed by millions, but many questions remain for getting all the details just right!

 

I live a half hour from Burke Lakefront Airport in Cleveland that has two F-4 Phantoms on display, one for the T-Birds and one for the Blues. (Though neither of these specific aircraft flew with the team). The teams did fly their Phantoms in Cleveland and I got to see both teams perform. 

 

http://www.blueangels.org/Aircraft/Stick/F4/812/812.htm

[BillS]

Ben, so glad to see this topic get attention. My problem is the raft of stuff I have to that may or may not be useful depending on how much one wishes to get in to the “weeds” as it were. Over my years in the AF, I had the occasion to work with the T-Birds and was recommended to join as the maintenance officer. I worked directly for Bob Haney (F-100, F-4 transition) and Tim Roels (71-73 slot). Both are now deceased. Mike Jacobsen, Tom Swalm’s crew chief was/is the Thunderbird Historical Society contact and I’m sure I can track him down. He and I spent hours talking about the F-4 days. After Maj Gen Swalm retired, he was a consultant to GD. One day he strolled in to visit Tim Roels who at the time was the Director of F-16 Product Support at GD. Hecwas unapproachable as a general but as a civilian he brightened up when I brought up the Thunderbirds. He passed away here in the Dallas area several years ago. My father, a mechanical engineer at NAA , Los Angeles was Special Projects Supervisor and led the modifications on the F-100D when it was decided to go back to the Hun. I won’ mention my Blue Angel connection here. That’s a whole story itself!

[Ben Brown]

Hi @BillS! Feel free to add anything you want to the thread. I don't have a whole lot on the T-Birds F-4s, since in the past my interests have always run more to the F-100s. When digging into the F-100 history, I found that the crew chiefs were consistently the best sources of the kind of nerd stuff I love because they had their hands on the jets every day. 

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

[Ben Brown]

Here's a link to the T-Birds F-4E Configuration Manual. There's probably some mods applied to the Blue Angels F-4Js, too.

 

Ben

[BillS]

The two teams transitioned to the F4 about the same time. The original jets came off the line configured. Actually, the mods were pretty extensive and included a gaseous oxygen system vs. LOX because of availability at civilian airports plus the various flight control, smoke etc. Most will recognize the MacD T-bird paint scheme had rather short nose scallops, absence of wing tip stripes and different style tail numbers which were quickly rectified. The Blue’s original jets were almost all written off within a year or so. This corresponds with various scheme modifications in following show seasons. I’m sure Blue’s fans have already watched “Threshold” on Youtube. It’s chockablock full of detail and I think captures the team as it was then. There is also a series ( the name of which I forget) that interviews pilots from both teams. Contrasting those guys to today’s teams is interesting. There is nothing that compares to the ADS F-4s. It was a brute and took LOTS of effort to fly and maintain but man-oh-man, it was exciting to witness. 

[Ben Brown]

Paint chips have been updated. Added Krylon True Blue to the comparison.

 

Ben

[Scott Smith]

Ben, this is great info.  I built my first BA Jet earlier this year.  Didn’t quite mail all the details.  I used the Yellowhammer decals for the ‘69 season.  In all the pics I found they had sparrows in place with the fins.  
Here’s my effort.  

 

 

 

Finding the right color was my hardest task.  I have a can of the Krylon blue, but I don’t like using it on models.  Gets very brittle when cured.  I went with the Tamiya TS-15 blue rattle can I decanted and airbrushed. 

I’m planning on doing a Thunderbird E next. 

Edited April 18 by Scott Smith

[Ben Brown]

@Scott Smith, beautiful! 
 

Ben

[aircommando130]

That's a gorgeous BA F-4J Scott! I have seen pictures with a few of those J's with short burner cans too.

This is great info as well. Thank you to everybody for sharing info about a great aircraft.

 

Cheers...Ron

[Ben Brown]

Another pic from the 1969 season (NMNA via Kinzey) that shows the natural metal area a little better than the photo of #1 a few posts above, with the zig zag in the paint above the afterburner nozzle. This shot also provides the best view I've found of the stabilator reinforcement plate. The #1 jet above doesn't have the this, and all jets don't have them in later seasons, so I'm guessing that maybe the plates weren't fitted to all BA F-4Js. It appears the plates were fitted to most of the Thunderbirds jets. Note how the plate carries forward all the way to the aft edge of the bare metal titanium leading edge slot, versus stopping well short on the "normal" stab reinforcement plate.

 

"Normal" F-4 stabilator reinforcement plate.

 

Ben